Illuminated Sign on car parcel self| Legal?

share_bear

If I attached a rear facing illuminated non-flashing 700 milliamp led red sign to the rear driver's side headrest of a saloon car (more than 2 foot 6 inches from rear bumper), would it be illegal whilst driving?

It would display a "!" in triangle icon , followed by "DISTANCE".
Second line "DRY: 2 Seconds | DAMP: 4 Seconds"

All text and symbol in red on black background. The text would be illuminated from inside the sign in red when being tailgated on single lane roads at speed limit for extended periods, left motorway lane etc.

It wouldn't be fitted to the car, rather it would be powered via interior 12V socket and not permanently attached to the car.

I can't figure out from the Irish lightening regulations or ECE 48 etc whether it is an interior light or if there is a reason it would be explicitly banned.

Reasoned opinions please? Thanks

Victor

Strictly speaking, distance is measured in metres, not seconds.

Will people be able to read this message from their own vehicle?

share_bear

Victor wrote: »

Strictly speaking, distance is measured in metres, not seconds.


Will people be able to read this message from their own vehicle?

It will be size of a sun vizor, visible through rear window.

I can't write an essay on the sign. First line is a different font/size to the second line. Second line refers to the two second rule for distance and is clear enough.

the_syco

share_bear wrote: »

First line is a different font/size to the second line. Second line refers to the two second rule for distance and is clear enough.

How close will they have to get before they can read the second line, and do you ever "brake check" in front of tailgaters?

exaisle

You could save on LEDs by just making the sign say "BACK OFF"

Snotty

If it is red, it would be considered a red rear light and so cannot be illuminated without reason. Informing a car behind of a message is not a reason.

share_bear

Snotty wrote: »

If it is red, it would be considered a red rear light and so cannot be illuminated without reason. Informing a car behind of a message is not a reason.

Source?

share_bear

exaisle wrote: »

You could save on LEDs by just making the sign say "BACK OFF"

Psychology: Its like if you are being blocked in outside lane and you want to pass. Flashing headlights will get the drivers back up. Indicating right from a safe distance gets them to move 99.9% of the time without delay. The wording of the message matters. Also the leds don't spell out the message, they illuminate a panel.

share_bear

the_syco wrote: »

How close will they have to get before they can read the second line, and do you ever "brake check" in front of tailgaters?

50 ft - but will only switch on when close, and no.

Esel

Have you*ever* seen one in use?

Snotty

share_bear wrote: »

Source?

What do you mean source? Source of a guard charging you with not having reasonable consideration for other road users? If you are lucky you get charged under section 52.1 of the road traffic act, slap on the wrist, but if it was me and the light was red, I'd be charging you with illegal use of lights and that can be up to €1000 for first offense.

The red bit in the middle of this lightbar is a display board with writing:




Also, the motorway maintenance lads have flashing lights on the rear of their vehicles intended to direct traffic:





I don't think the law says anything about signs, just lights, and amber lights are allowed, so if its something like this then there's no reason you're not allowed:




But I think amber/orange is the only colour you'd really get away with. Blue is reserved for emergency service use, red and white are not allowed except in certain circumstances, whereas amber is a bit of a catch-all colour and can be used how you like, really.

share_bear

Snotty wrote: »

What do you mean source? Source of a guard charging you with not having reasonable consideration for other road users? If you are lucky you get charged under section 52.1 of the road traffic act, slap on the wrist, but if it was me and the light was red, I'd be charging you with illegal use of lights and that can be up to €1000 for first offense.

Hey take it easy!

Source = specific piece of legislation/regulation.

Your Section 52.1 = A person shall not drive a vehicle in a public place without due care and attention, or without reasonable consideration for other persons using the place.

That doesn't seem sufficient - do you have something more specific?

Before you charge me with with "illegal use of lights" please quote a source for the authority to do so - i.e. what exact piece of legislation will you be charging me under?

Don't get me wrong - if you have something specific I appreciate seeing it.
Show me the bona fides.

share_bear

Deleted User wrote: »

The red bit in the middle of this lightbar is a display board with writing:




Also, the motorway maintenance lads have flashing lights on the rear of their vehicles intended to direct traffic:





I don't think the law says anything about signs, just lights, and amber lights are allowed, so if its something like this then there's no reason you're not allowed:




But I think amber/orange is the only colour you'd really get away with. Blue is reserved for emergency service use, red and white are not allowed except in certain circumstances, whereas amber is a bit of a catch-all colour and can be used how you like, really.

The problem is that scrolling message boards in red text probably constitute flashing red lights - only allowed by emergency services. The same in amber is a flashing amber light - not allowed ANYMORE on M1 class cars - only certain prescribed situations such as utility vehicles. There is a thread elsewhere where a guy towing a trailer with a revolving beacon to prevent people changing lanes into the trailer was asked by the gardai to turn it off as he didn't fall within the listed exceptions.

My only hope on an M1 vehicle might be a sign illuminated in red that is completely static and doesn't flash. There is also the question of what is the regulations in relation to illuminated vehicle signage - you don't see rearward facing "Domino's Piza" sign on cars here like in some US states - why?

share_bear

Esel wrote: »

Have you*ever* seen one in use?

Something similar for volunteers on rear window, and also led univisor for front window, is made by this crowd in UK
http://www.saferesponse.co.uk/

Of course we can't assume from this that it is legal for a private person in ROI,
but private volunteers do use them in UK - but with a different message.

I would be getting them to make a LED univisor (Red Text, black background) and then attaching it to the rear headrest. The reason I am not using the illuminated sign that attaches to the rear window is that my car is a VW Type 1F8 where all the glass, and glass roof, fold up and retract into the boot, so I don't always have a rear window. I am a bit precious about the car as only three were built in RHD with the particular small 1.4 timingchain engine that I have.

Victor

When reversing, will this light reflect on the rear window, thereby obstructing your view?

share_bear

Victor wrote: »

When reversing, will this light reflect on the rear window, thereby obstructing your view?

It won't create any additional obstruction. There are huge rear headrests that contain an explosive charge like an airbag to shoot up a roll over hoop - its massive. It will occupy the space behind that and will not be switched on unless travelling forward at speed with a bumper kisser.

H3llR4iser

share_bear wrote: »

Psychology: Its like if you are being blocked in outside lane and you want to pass. Flashing headlights will get the drivers back up. Indicating right from a safe distance gets them to move 99.9% of the time without delay. The wording of the message matters. Also the leds don't spell out the message, they illuminate a panel.

Psychology 101: a simple "back off!" message, even just a sticker, will solicit a bit of humor and some drivers will subconsciously drop back - call it the "nice guy effect". It's direct, no frills, gets the concept delivered in a simple manner.

A lit up, long winded message lecturing the driver about distance will be seen as patronizing and will paint a huge "bullseye" on you; Somebody who tailgates to begin with won't be deterred by it, quite the contrary - they'll do something even more idiotic because they're p1ssed off by it.

Unless you count on the "confusion factor", as you'd often see these electronic messages on Police cars - in which case, I'm not sure of the legal ramifications.

GM228

[Deleted User] wrote: »

But I think amber/orange is the only colour you'd really get away with. Blue is reserved for emergency service use, red and white are not allowed except in certain circumstances, whereas amber is a bit of a catch-all colour and can be used how you like, really.

Red is the only colour which is legal when facing towards the rear for any light (other than indicators and reversing lamp), any other colour is an offence, also to note is it is also an offence to have any light on a vehicle which misleads or dazzles other motorists.

share_bear

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Psychology 101: a simple "back off!" message, even just a sticker, will solicit a bit of humor and some drivers will subconsciously drop back - call it the "nice guy effect". It's direct, no frills, gets the concept delivered in a simple manner.

A lit up, long winded message lecturing the driver about distance will be seen as patronizing and will paint a huge "bullseye" on you; Somebody who tailgates to begin with won't be deterred by it, quite the contrary - they'll do something even more idiotic because they're p1ssed off by it.

Unless you count on the "confusion factor", as you'd often see these electronic messages on Police cars - in which case, I'm not sure of the legal ramifications.

I was already thinking it might be possible to modify the sign to only illuminate the relevant part of the second line....but for now I need to concentrate on the legality of an additional light or sign >2.5 feet from the rear of the car. Even the RSA haven't answered yet.

GM228

GM228 wrote: »

Red is the only colour which is legal when facing towards the rear for any light (other than indicators and reversing lamp), any other colour is an offence, also to note is it is also an offence to have any light on a vehicle which misleads or dazzles other motorists.

Can you back that up with anything, about the red light being the only allowed rear-facing colour?

I'm fairly confident you're only allowed to use red as a rear facing colour (ie cant have red at the front) but you're not disallowed from using other colours rear facing. Otherwise every workers van, council van, builders truck, etc. would be off the road.

GM228

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Can you back that up with anything, about the red light being the only allowed rear-facing colour?

Yes, it is provided for in the Road Traffic (Lighting of Vehicles) Regulations 1963 (as amended).

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm fairly confident you're only allowed to use red as a rear facing colour (ie cant have red at the front) but you're not disallowed from using other colours rear facing.

Regulars here probably know by now that motoring is my speciality when it comes to the law KKV.

You are right about no red to the front, but the part in bold is incorrect, see R41 (2) (as amended by the Road Traffic (Lighting of Vehicles) (Amendment) Regulations 2014):-

Restrictions on lighting-colour.

41. (1) (a) A vehicle shall not be equipped with lighting which when lit shows any light to the front of the vehicle except a white or yellow light.

(b) The provisions of paragraph (a) of this sub-article shall not apply as respects direction indicators.

(2) (a) A vehicle shall not be equipped with lighting which when lit shows any light to the rear of the vehicle except a red light.

(b) The provisions of paragraph (a) of this sub-article shall not apply as respects:—

(i) lighting used for the internal illumination of the vehicle;

(ii) lighting used for the illumination of a taximeter;

(iii) direction indicators;

(iv) identification mark lighting;

(v) reversing lamps;

(vi) lighting used for the illumination of a notice on a large public service vehicle giving information as to the route or destination of the vehicle;

(vii) lighting used on a vehicle being driven by a member of the Garda Síochána in the performance of his duties as such member;

(viii) a lamp fitted to a goods vehicle and intended and used only for the purpose of facilitating unloading while the vehicle is stationary;

(ix) a work lamp fitted to an agricultural tractor or self-propelled agricultural machine.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Otherwise every workers van, council van, builders truck, etc. would be off the road.

They have an exemption to both the front and rear rules, they are covered under the same exemptions for Gardaí, Fire Brigade etc, first see R40:-

Compliance by vehicles with this Part.

40. (1) Every mechanically propelled vehicle and every trailer shall at all times while used in a public place comply with the provisions of articles 41 to 48 of these Regulations.

(2) Every vehicle (other than a mechanically propelled vehicle or a trailer) shall at all times while in use in a public place comply as respects lighting with the provisions of articles 41, 42, 45 and 48 of these Regulations

Then see R52 (18) (as inserted by the Road Traffic (Lighting of Vehicles) (Amendment) Regulations 1996 and amended by the Road Traffic (Lighting of Vehicles) (Blue and Amber Lamps) Regulations 2006, the Road Traffic (Lighting of Vehicles) (Blue and Amber Lamps) (Amendment) Regulations 2011 and the Road Traffic (Lighting of Vehicles) (Amendment) Regulations 2014):-

Exemptions and modifications for certain classes of vehicles.

52. (18) (a) Article 40 (in so far as it refers to articles 41, 42, 48 and 49) and articles 41, 42, 48 and 49 (except sub-article 9) do not apply to a lamp which complies with paragraph (b) and which is carried on a vehicle being used—

(i) by a member of the Garda Síochána in the performance of his or her duties,

(ii) as a fire brigade vehicle,

(iii) by persons providing an ambulance service,

(iv) by the Irish Prison Service,

(v) as an Irish Coast Guard vehicle, with or without a trailer,

(vi) for the delivery or collection of human transplant organs, human blood or human blood products,

(vii) as a Marked Military Police vehicle,

(viii) as a breakdown vehicle,

(ix) as a road clearance vehicle,

(x) as a road works vehicle,

(xi) by a local authority (within the meaning of the Local Government Act 2001 (No. 37 of 2001)) or other person authorised by a local authority in the collection and disposal of refuse,

(xii) in the provision or maintenance of telephone services or of gas or electricity supply, or

(xiii) as a Customs and Excise patrol vehicle, or

(xix) as an agricultural tractor or self-propelled agricultural machine, ((except vintage agricultural tractors used solely for vintage rallies or display)

(b) In relation to a lamp carried on a vehicle referred to in paragraph (a)—

(i) the light shown by the lamp shall in the case of a vehicle referred to in—

(I) paragraph (a)(i) to (vii), be blue, and

(II) paragraph (a)(viii) to (xix), be amber,

(ii) the power of the lamp where the colour of the light is—

(I) blue, shall not exceed 50 watts, and

(II) amber, shall not exceed 36 watts,

(iii) the lamp shall, where possible, be fitted on the roof of the vehicle on a point on its longitudinal axis,

(iv) no part of the illuminated surface of the lamp shall be less than 1.27 metres from the ground,

(v) the area of the orthogonal projection on to any vertical plane of that part of the lamp through which light is shown shall be capable of lying wholly within a square having sides of 230 millimetres in length,

(vii) the lamp, in the case of an agricultural tractor or self-propelled agricultural machine shall be lit at all times when the vehicle is in use in a public place.

(c) In this sub-article—

‘breakdown vehicle’ means a mechanically propelled vehicle used for towing broken down mechanically propelled vehicles, trailers or semi-trailers to the nearest convenient place of safety or repair and includes a vehicle used in connection with and in the immediate vicinity of a breakdown;

‘Customs and Excise patrol vehicle’ means a mechanically propelled vehicle used by an official of Customs and Excise in the performance of his or her duties as such official;

‘fire brigade vehicle’ means a vehicle used by a fire authority (within the meaning of theFire Services Act 1981 (No. 30 of 1981)) and includes a vehicle used by a senior fire officer in the performance of his or her duty as such officer;

‘Irish Coast Guard vehicle’ includes a mechanically propelled vehicle, with or without a trailer, used by a senior manager in the Irish Coast Guard in the performance of his or her duty as such officer;

‘Marked Military Police vehicle’ means a mechanically propelled Defence Forces vehicle used by a member of the Military Police Corps in the performance of his or her duties;

‘road clearance vehicle’ means a mechanically propelled vehicle used for dealing with frost, ice or snow on roads and includes a vehicle used for cutting of roadside hedges or roadside grass verges or in the sweeping of roads;

‘road works vehicle’ means a mechanically propelled vehicle used in connection with the construction, maintenance and improvement of roads or in connection with the provision and maintenance of water supplies, sewerage and drainage services;

‘senior fire officer’ means a fire officer not below the grade of Assistant Fire Officer (Prevention) but including the grades of Second Officer and Third Officer;

‘senior manager in the Irish Coast Guard ’ means an officer of the Irish Coast Guard not below the grade of Divisional Officer.

This is the most up to date version of the regulations, unless part of the exemption (which allows for blue or amber) no colour is allowed other than red.

L1011

The wattage limit is dated - they should really change that to lumens. 50 watts of LED is quite bright!