payment in lieu of notice

davidjtaylor

Hi there

I was recently let go after nearly 20 years. The partners are heavily in debt, can't pay redundancy and I know this to be true, so I'm pursuing statutory redundancy through welfare.ie

The issue I need advice on is the 8 weeks' notice I should have had - I had none; Friday evening, I was told it was finished. I'm also owed just over a week in back pay.

My understanding is that I will not get this money, it's 5K the partners do not have.

Any advice anyone?

exaisle

davidjtaylor wrote: »

Hi there

I was recently let go after nearly 20 years. The partners are heavily in debt, can't pay redundancy and I know this to be true, so I'm pursuing statutory redundancy through welfare.ie

The issue I need advice on is the 8 weeks' notice I should have had - I had none; Friday evening, I was told it was finished. I'm also owed just over a week in back pay.

My understanding is that I will not get this money, it's 5K the partners do not have.

Any advice anyone?

Go to a solicitor and don't rely on boards.ie for advice.
If you're working for a company (xyx LIMITED) then you have a claim on any assets the company has(after any liquidator has been paid).
If you're working for a partnership (you mentioned "partners") then you can sue them jointly and severally (ie. separately and jointly) and they're personally responsible for the debts of the business.
The main thing is to seek proper legal advice immediately, preferably with a solicitor who specialises in employment law.

In my experience, the receipt of a stern solicitor's letter often has the result of people finding money to pay debts that they previously claimed they didn't have..... ;-)

davidjtaylor

exaisle wrote: »

Go to a solicitor and don't rely on boards.ie for advice.
If you're working for a company (xyx LIMITED) then you have a claim on any assets the company has(after any liquidator has been paid).
If you're working for a partnership (you mentioned "partners") then you can sue them jointly and severally (ie. separately and jointly) and they're personally responsible for the debts of the business.
The main thing is to seek proper legal advice immediately, preferably with a solicitor who specialises in employment law.

In my experience, the receipt of a stern solicitor's letter often has the result of people finding money to pay debts that they previously claimed they didn't have..... ;-)

Thanks exaisle

There's no liquidator involved - the partners are trying to sell assets to pay their tax bill. We live locally to each other and I want to do this in the most amicable way.

I was wondering whether, as in redundancy payments - which can be paid by the social insurance fund in the case of a business being unable to pay - there was a social insurance fund for the likes of payment in lieu. I don't think there is.

exaisle

davidjtaylor wrote: »

Thanks exaisle

There's no liquidator involved - the partners are trying to sell assets to pay their tax bill. We live locally to each other and I want to do this in the most amicable way.

I was wondering whether, as in redundancy payments - which can be paid by the social insurance fund in the case of a business being unable to pay - there was a social insurance fund for the likes of payment in lieu. I don't think there is.

"Amicable" doesn't come into it. There are no friends in business. You are as entitled to be paid as the tax man...indeed, you should be paid BEFORE the tax man. You sound like a very decent man, but you really need to make it clear to the partners that you insist on getting paid in full.

The tax liabilities of the partners are not your concern or responsibility.

And consult a solicitor. Immediately.

davidjtaylor

exaisle wrote: »

"Amicable" doesn't come into it. There are no friends in business. You are as entitled to be paid as the tax man...indeed, you should be paid BEFORE the tax man. You sound like a very decent man, but you really need to make it clear to the partners that you insist on getting paid in full.

The tax liabilities of the partners are not your concern or responsibility.

And consult a solicitor. Immediately.

Thanks again. Another employee there will definitely go straight to a solicitor, he's that sort, no love lost etc etc. I will do so too.

As for the taxman (it's always male), he can be a bastid, I'm not convinced I'm higher up the food chain.

I'll post what happens, without names so as to protect the guilty, so others can learn.

Speedwell

David, I also work for friends. But we understand that we took on certain responsibilities when we decided to work with each other. I undertook to complete the projects I was given to the best of my ability and to generally adhere to the terms of our contract. They undertook to pay me in accordance with the contract and with the law. It would be very obliging of you to say "you don't have to do what you promised", but the fact is that they did undertake that responsibility and are now accountable not just to you personally but to their contractual and legal obligations. If you are forced to get the help of a solicitor, it is not your fault, it is theirs.

davidjtaylor

Speedwell wrote: »

David, I also work for friends. But we understand that we took on certain responsibilities when we decided to work with each other. I undertook to complete the projects I was given to the best of my ability and to generally adhere to the terms of our contract. They undertook to pay me in accordance with the contract and with the law. It would be very obliging of you to say "you don't have to do what you promised", but the fact is that they did undertake that responsibility and are now accountable not just to you personally but to their contractual and legal obligations. If you are forced to get the help of a solicitor, it is not your fault, it is theirs.

Yes, that's how I'm feeling. They'd do the same if the roles were reversed but I know it will end in tears. I'm going down the solicitor route and that is partially driven by the fact that their accountant won't talk to me.

CIARAN_BOYLE

davidjtaylor wrote: »

Thanks again. Another employee there will definitely go straight to a solicitor, he's that sort, no love lost etc etc. I will do so too.

As for the taxman (it's always male), he can be a bastid, I'm not convinced I'm higher up the food chain.

I'll post what happens, without names so as to protect the guilty, so others can learn.

As far as I remember the taxman has a higher claim on some of the liabilities than you do and a lower claim on other liabilities.

I believe that it is secured loans then money the partners owe the tax man on your wages, then you, then general taxes the partners owe on vat and income tax then other creditors.

davidjtaylor

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

As far as I remember the taxman has a higher claim on some of the liabilities than you do and a lower claim on other liabilities.

I believe that it is secured loans then money the partners owe the tax man on your wages, then you, then general taxes the partners owe on vat and income tax then other creditors.

Very useful to know, thanks, I'll seek confirmation of this.

CIARAN_BOYLE

davidjtaylor wrote: »

Very useful to know, thanks, I'll seek confirmation of this.

Take into account that you are only entitled to priority on wages in the last period (I believe 4 months though it could be more). So if you have to take steps you need to do it soon.

davidjtaylor

Is it worth getting in touch with the WRC?

exaisle

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

As far as I remember the taxman has a higher claim on some of the liabilities than you do and a lower claim on other liabilities.

I believe that it is secured loans then money the partners owe the tax man on your wages, then you, then general taxes the partners owe on vat and income tax then other creditors.

In a liquidation, wages due for the past year rank as a preferential creditor and are paid after liquidation costs, and PRSI. They rank equal with other taxes but only those taxes due within the past year also.

From what OP says, this may be a partnership, so it may be a question of whomever shouts loudest gets paid first...

davidjtaylor

It was a partnership, yes.

daheff

davidjtaylor wrote: »

Thanks exaisle

There's no liquidator involved - the partners are trying to sell assets to pay their tax bill. We live locally to each other and I want to do this in the most amicable way.

Screw amicable.


You have a duty to look after yourself and your family first...not them. They wont be thinking of you (as evidenced by the fact they havent paid you or given you any advice on what to do now).

Get a good solicitor to guide you on how to make a claim and how to refer your redundancy to the social welfare. AFAIK social welfare will pay you statutory amount if the company cannot pay.

Sorry to hear you are out of work. Hopefully you bounce back quickly. Keep your head up and get straight back out looking for a job again.

Hoboo

davidjtaylor wrote: »

Is it worth getting in touch with the WRC?

+1 That would be my first port of call.

davidjtaylor

daheff wrote: »

Sorry to hear you are out of work. Hopefully you bounce back quickly. Keep your head up and get straight back out looking for a job again.

Thanks. Plenty to do!