Pet Insurance: Wolf in sheep's clothing?

faceman

Spurned by some of the comments in another thread I thought it would be worth discussing this hot topic.

I've come to the conclusion that pet insurance is a bit of a scam.

I had pet insurance for my now 3 and bit old cocker. When I first took out the policy it cost €15 p.m with Allianz. Earlier this year they put it up to €25 p.m. Value of claims made up to that point? €0. I had chosen Allianz originally because 2 vets put them top of their list.

At the time of the increase my madra had had some ear problems and other random infections. The increase promoted me to start enquiring about claiming for all these vet visits. It transpired that not many of these visits were covered and those that were cane with an excess.

So I chatted to my vet about it and asked him outside of an accident what kind of problems would he expect a dog at mine's age to have to justify the insurance. He said given my dog was healthy that the risk of needing insurance was low.

So I cancelled my policy and opened a savings account. Instead of paying insurance, I now put €20 in the account each month and have it ring fenced for the dog.

What's your views on insurance? Have you claimed the small stuff?

Canis Lupus

Insurance is like anything. You don't need it until you need it.

Point in case guy in work got two rescue cats. Had them two months or so and they both got sick one quite badly and he paid out about 10k AUD he had to take out a loan. Another has a cat which just got diagnosed with lymphoma which she decided to treat. She's been putting money away since she got the cat but she's around 5k down and she owns two other cats. The contingency fund is dry if they get sick.

I guess you need to decide that if the dog gets very sick can you afford to treat it and costs can be crazy high.

Nody

Insurance is not for the day to day bills; it's for the 10k bill you get hit with when he gets hit by a car and needs both his back legs sorted out and I know families who it has been life saver for who did not have significant savings/disposable income to handle unexpected events (they struggled with the excess alone) and this thread is a perfect example of why to have it. If you have a good savings already on the side then insurance is not needed and you can put away money for more day to day bills but if you don't or you're not able to save significantly insurance is a very good policy to have. At the end of the day it's not based on 100% of people claiming a 10k operation but as a group it averages out and gives you peace of mind (economically) in case something happens. Oh and one other thing; you say he's healthy now but be aware that many insurance companies have a cut off date for age for you to be allowed to insure your dog again later on in life when he's more likely to become ill because they got no interest in people only claiming in the bad periods of their animals life (as that would drive up the cost of insurance significantly for everyone).

dashoonage

go for a couple of trips through UCD with a madra and you will be glad of it.

CelticRambler

20€ a month = 240€ a year. That would just about cover an out-of-hours charge and treatment for a tummy upset.

Bad ears are "normal" for a cocker, so you'd be expected to pay out for those yourself, but I don't think you appreciate how expensive vet-care costs can get when things go really wrong, and the worst of all worlds is when you give the vet the go-ahead to do "everything possible" after an accident and your pet dies anyway.

Some recent examples I know about:
Dog shot by a farmer : 700€
Puppy ran into the road, hit by car, two broken legs: 1500€
Cat ate elastic band, ruptured gut: 600€ and he died under anaesthetic
Various dogs with grass-seeds in their noses, ears, paws, mouths: 200-300€ each
Cat scorched by car engine, needed skin graft: 6000€
Dog with simple paw fracture, owner rebandaged badly, dog ended up with gangrene and amputation: 3500€

Out of those, only the scorched cat was insured (and only for up to 4k's worth of treatment)

ectoraige

We took out pet insurance with Allianz for our cocker spaniel when we got him, he was four months old at the time. Two months later he suffered a complex elbow fracture which required specialist surgery which cost over €2,500. We simply would not have been able to afford it without the insurance. He was sprinting across the beach yesterday, that wouldn't have been possible without the insurance. Advanced medical care is massively expensive, and there's not public health system for dogs to fall back on. We didn't take it out to cover the day-to-day expenses, we bought it hoping we'd never need it.

One thing I'll note about Allianz, they were the only provider we found on the Irish market who provide continuing cover for conditions that develop over the pet's life. Most of them only cover for an illness until the end of the year, and then at renewal time treat it as a pre-existing condition and so exclude coverage.

razorblunt

We adopted a 7/8 year old rescue in 2016. Given there was no real history and she was overweight and had issues with her teeth, we thought it best to get insurance, at ~£20 per month.

Within 6 months she'd been to the out of hours emergency vet twice, the second time with an overnight stay. It would take about 2.5 years of saving to cover the cost.

Ashbx

Razorblunt, where did you get insurance for a 7/8 year old dog?

tk123

dashoonage wrote: »

go for a couple of trips through UCD with a madra and you will be glad of it.

+1 Referral hospitals don't usually let you pay in instalments either. It's either sign the insurance form or pay up front. Bailey's claims are up to 11-12k so yes I'm glad he's insured(!)
Leg #1 I borrowed the money as I had to pay up front, leg#2 they allowed direct claim.. The jaw thing I was allowed direct claim - without the insurance I would have needed to have 2.5k up front in the space of a week as time was of the essence - they needed to get the piece of jaw out with reasonable margins on each side before the tumour got bigger etc etc
As I've posted before - when Bailey was in for that jaw thing there was a social media campaign for somebody who couldn't pay for their dog's surgery in the same referral hospital so not a position I'd like to be in. When I lost my job a few years ago the first thing I did was make sure I had the money set aside for his insurance!

My friend's pup was rushed to emergency vet for blockage - 1k

Choc Chip

Kind-of agreeing with Nody, it entirely on whether someone is in a position to pay out a substantial amount in an emergency.

Overall, insurance premiums are more than payouts, or insurance companies wouldn't make money.

If someone is in a position to pay a substantial vet bill in an emergency then there is no point in having insurance. You're essentially betting with the insurance company that you'll claim more than your premiums. Given the money insurance companies spend on actuaries, they're probably going to charge more than the average person will claim. However, if someone is not in a position to pay potentially thousands of euro upfront in an emergency then insurance is invaluable.

pawrick

I'm not too sure about insurance either especially in the case of indoor pets which are less of a risk for random accidents.

Some breeds more so than others also have issues being re insured once they hit certain ages therefore you can get tied to one provider if already with them and have to pay what ever premium they demand or get locked out of having insurance when you are most likely to need it. Personally I'll resort to savings / loans if and when I have the need, that suits me but might not someone else, everyone should look at their own situation and see what works best for them and their pet. People also should consider when getting a pet the breeding history where at all possible and likely health issues specific in that breed, good breeding helps mitigate some hereditary issues.

cocker5

faceman wrote: »

Spurned by some of the comments in another thread I thought it would be worth discussing this hot topic.

I've come to the conclusion that pet insurance is a bit of a scam.

I had pet insurance for my now 3 and bit old cocker. When I first took out the policy it cost €15 p.m with Allianz. Earlier this year they put it up to €25 p.m. Value of claims made up to that point? €0. I had chosen Allianz originally because 2 vets put them top of their list.

At the time of the increase my madra had had some ear problems and other random infections. The increase promoted me to start enquiring about claiming for all these vet visits. It transpired that not many of these visits were covered and those that were cane with an excess.

So I chatted to my vet about it and asked him outside of an accident what kind of problems would he expect a dog at mine's age to have to justify the insurance. He said given my dog was healthy that the risk of needing insurance was low.

So I cancelled my policy and opened a savings account. Instead of paying insurance, I now put €20 in the account each month and have it ring fenced for the dog.

What's your views on insurance? Have you claimed the small stuff?

In all honestly OP €20 per month @ €240 per year will do nothing towards vet bills if your dog ever needs treatment.

Im with Allianz 12 years now, over the years have had a few small claims on and off some bloods etc… sickness etc… but the year that’s all changed.

So far this year for my 12.5 year old cocker:
€650 – Cardiology
€350 – Bloods (extensive testing) / X ray’s Hip dysplasia (numerous)
€650 for on-going hydro therapy for his HD
€480 for on-going heart supplements for his heart murmur (Taurine / l - carnitine)
€550 to have lump removed from Dew claw and repeat bloods and x-rays
€1,350 for Tonsil episode (numerous tests, biopsies, appointments and outside labs etc)

That’s €4k in one year to which we got back €2.6 and our health insurance costs us €400 per year – worth EVERY penny IMO

It’s not for the day to day it’s for emergencies or illness.. the €20 savings per month won’t even make a dent in a vets bill heaven forbid you ever need it.

CelticRambler

pawrick wrote: »

I'm not too sure about insurance either especially in the case of indoor pets which are less of a risk for random accidents.

Well that's definitely not true! Cat above who ate the rubber band was an indoor cat, and indoor cats fall off windowsills (and the tops of wardrobes) more often than you might think (to the extent that they have a particluar set of injuries - google "falling cat syndrome").

I once had dealings with a dog-owner who refused to believe his dog was at the vets because he'd locked him in the bathroom of his appartment before going to work. Dog had a chip, was brought in by the fire service with two broken legs. Owner eventually agreed to go home and check, found no dog in the bathroom ... and had him put to sleep because he couldn't afford the surgery costs.

Another dog: ate a plate of kebabs left over from a dinner party - including the skewers ... :rolleyes:

An indoor cat, had it's tail pulled by a visiting child causing it to become paralysed from the waist down and needing six weeks of treatment (plus tail amputation) to achieve a partial recovery ...

By definition, random accidents can happen anytime, anywhere, and staying indoors is no protection.

Choc Chip

cocker5 wrote: »

That’s €4k in one year to which we got back €2.6 and our health insurance costs us €400 per year – worth EVERY penny IMO

It’s not for the day to day it’s for emergencies or illness.. the €20 savings per month won’t even make a dent in a vets bill heaven forbid you ever need it.

Just for the sake of argument, if you'd put aside that €400 each year for 12 years, you'd have €4,800, far more than the €2.6k you got back this year (I don't know how much you claimed other years, or if your premiums were consistent over 12 years, just using this as an example).

Also, at €240 per year, after 12 years the op would have €2,880 saved, more than you received from your insurer this year (I'm ignoring interest etc for the sake of simplicity).

I'm not arguing against insurance (mine are insured because I'm not in a position to make large payments for vet fees if they were required), but for insurance companies to make money, most people must be in a net loss position.

pawrick

CelticRambler wrote: »

Well that's definitely not true!

I said less of a risk as per the line you quoted. You don't have to contend with factors outside your home in addition to what is inside e.g. cars, other peoples cats etc.

cocker5

Choc Chip wrote: »

Just for the sake of argument, if you'd put aside that €400 each year for 12 years, you'd have €4,800, far more than the €2.6k you got back this year (I don't know how much you claimed other years, or if your premiums were consistent over 12 years, just using this as an example).

Also, at €240 per year, after 12 years the op would have €2,880 saved, more than you received from your insurer this year (I'm ignoring interest etc for the sake of simplicity).

I'm not arguing against insurance (mine are insured because I'm not in a position to make large payments for vet fees if they were required), but for insurance companies to make money, most people must be in a net loss position.

But Im not sure you understand this is only for one year …
I have had claims in other years?

So it wasn’t a claim free 12 years and now this so no it doesn’t add up to be honest. There were €500 / €600 claims in some of the years etc where we got 100% back of the claim

Your basing it on €400 x 12 years assuming no illness in between… what if he needed all this treatment at 5 years of age? I’d be short €2,000 at least…

who_ru

I have 2 cats, no insurance. Maybe I should. Allianz people’s recommendation?

Choc Chip

I'm on the phone now, but replying to cocker5 - i understand that your stated claims were in one year. You said you had a few minor claims through the years but nothing serious (as i read it). I understand that your figures were for a single year and that if that particular year had been earlier, the insurance company would have been put of pocket rather than you. They didnt happen in earlier years, as would have been predicted by actuaries.

You can take any individual case (tk123 would probably blow us all out of the water) and argue for insurance.

However, you cant argue against the fact that insurance companies are there to make money. Therefore, on average, over the lifetime of a pet, premiums will be greater than payouts.

Insurance is there for peace of mind. In an ideal world, statistically I would think someone would be better putting aside and investing that money themselves for potential vet bills, rather than paying insurance. It all depends on whether one can afford that lump sum payout in an emergency.

I can't, so i have insurance. If i won the lottery tomorrow, i wouldnt continue my insurance.

tk123

Choc Chip wrote: »

You can take any individual case (tk123 would probably blow us all out of the water) and argue for insurance.

You can say that about any insurance though - that's the whole point. You're paying for the what-if. What if I crash my car this evening or it gets stolen, what if the house is broken into etc etc etc

Insurance for me is peace of mind that I won't be hit with a giant bill.. I think until they're hit with a giant bill people can be a bit clueless as to how much the bills can run up and how something simple can turn into a long term issue. You're forgetting too insurance isn't just for vet bills - it covers 3rd party claims etc also

Choc Chip

tk123 wrote: »

You can say that about any insurance though - that's the whole point. You're paying for the what-if. What if I crash my car this evening or it gets stolen, what if the house is broken into etc etc etc

Insurance for me is peace of mind that I won't be hit with a giant bill.. I think until they're hit with a giant bill people can be a bit clueless as to how much the bills can run up and how something simple can turn into a long term issue. You're forgetting too insurance isn't just for vet bills - it covers 3rd party claims etc also

I agree with you, but also agree with those who decide to self-insure by putting money aside (as long as they're prepared). I see the validity in both positions.

You do make a good point about 3rd party liability. I'd completely forgotten about it as I'd never be able to claim under my pet insurance. I've a RB and the cover only applies if she is muzzled and under control at all times. I can't ever see her biting somone, attacking sheep or causing a traffic accident if she was muzzled and under control at the time. I take your point on it being a consideration for others though.

tk123

Choc Chip wrote: »

I can't ever see her biting somone, attacking sheep or causing a traffic accident if she was muzzled and under control at the time. I take your point on it being a consideration for others though.

:rolleyes: Sure didn't somebody sue when a Bichon scraped their kids leg and got a huge payout! :rolleyes: Our crappy Irish lotto wouldn't cover the claims - make sure we're doing euromillions lol!!

If I was saving I'd want to be able to put my hands on at least 4k with no notice - the annual max on our policy is 4k.

Choc Chip

tk123 wrote: »

:rolleyes: Sure didn't somebody sue when a Bichon scraped their kids leg and got a huge payout! :rolleyes: Our crappy Irish lotto wouldn't cover the claims - make sure we're doing euromillions lol!!

If I was saving I'd want to be able to put my hands on at least 4k with no notice - the annual max on our policy is 4k.

I'd want to be able to put my hands on a whole lot more than 4k. I'd have to cover my annual max plus any excess.

I don't get the rolled eyes btw. I genuinely don't see what damage my dog could do while muzzled and on a short lead. I've not heard of that case (would appreciate a link if you have it), and my dog doesn't jump up and avoids other people. 3rd party claims would only be possible if she had escaped somehow, in which case my insurance wouldn't cover it anyway.

Edited to add: Max amount on third party claims is 250k, so if the claim is in the millions we'd still be doing the euromillions.

tk123

The rolled eyes was for claim culture!

Choc Chip

Sorry - I thought it was at my naivety! I was genuinely confused and trying to figure out how she could cause damage while muzzled and on a lead!

beveragelady

I've thought about this a lot. I have four animals, two cats and two dogs. None are insured, and I've rationalised it as follows...

I don't believe in longer-term medical intervention, which is where the big costs are. (I decided not to put my dog through chemotherapy, for example. This had nothing to do with costs, and everything to do with how much I love him.*)

I have shelled out a fortune for various operations. A fortune. However, it's less than I would have paid over the course of the four lifetimes in insurance. Anyway I think I'll always be able to get my hands on the money for an emergency whereas I'm much more likely to fail to meet payments for insurance, leaving myself without cover.

I have no dependents apart from the animals. I can scrimp to pay for an emergency without depriving anybody but myself. I have, for example, cancelled a trip away because my stupid cat needed something removed from his stupid bowels (again). I had to choose between paying for my dog's last operation and buying wood pellets for central heating. The dog got seen to and we managed without heating. It would be a different story if I had to choose between buying schoolbooks for kids and taking care of the dog.

I have a very steady income, but I'm bad at managing it, and all in all it has worked out ok so far. It's interesting that of the four animals in my house, two have cost me a fortune and two have been virtually cost-free apart from neutering and basic maintenance.

I have health insurance myself, simply because it makes things happen faster when you need them to. Pet insurance doesn't function the same way. I'm not making a case against pet insurance in general here. This is my situation and there are many factors that influence it. If things changed I might try to insure the younger ones, but for now I'm doing ok without it.

*I know there's a whole separate argument here. I can't stand to see them suffering, and I have definitely seen cases where an animal's life was prolonged because it could be prolonged, when maybe it shouldn't have been.