Luas fine- appeals process - length of time a response usually takes?

Pro2ac

So, I am sure we have all heard it before.

I decided to change from using a student leapcard to trying out a weekly ticket as I had been told it was cheaper.

I bought a 7 day ticket, grabbed what was provided and dashed for my luas.

An inspector climbed on and proceeded to be rather unbudging when I happily produced my ticket which he informed me was only a receipt. I proceeded to explain this was all the machine produced, at which he scoffed.

I was fined on the spot and the whole thing was rather embarrassing. Furthermore I was down the ticket money, the ticket and the fine..

I proceeded to top up my student leap again and appeal the fine. I was fortunate that I had purchased the ticket for that day on my card and could provide my bank statement as evidence of my purchase.

Could anyone advise how long the appeals process is supposed to take and what the likelihood of me not being forced to pay this fine would be?

Thanks!

goingnowhere

You didn't have a valid ticket when checked, case closed. All the Luas inspector has to show is that you did not have a valid ticket.

There are no excuses, exclusions, escape clauses or otherwise.

As with every transaction, before leaving you check the change, receipt and the item (i.e. ticket has been issued correctly). You failed to collect the ticket from the machine (receipt is printed after the ticket is printed) and had you paid more attention you would have noticed this immediately and got the ticket.

Luas will argue any appeal on the basis that the machine will remind you to take your ticket

Thats it.

And the leap card will always be same or cheaper than paying cash for a weekly ticket, the entire fare structure is setup to ensure this.

SATSUMA

Been there!

No ticket no appeal! Dont waste your time.

tuisginideach

4 days for the bad news to come to me.

magicbastarder

not sure what's going on here - you bought a seven day ticket, and loaded it on to your student card? or how does it work?
or did you fail to collect a leap card which should also have been issued?

Hilly Bill

Think he bought a weekly ticket out the machine and walked off with a receipt and not the ticket.
Someone else now has his ticket.

XPS_Zero

Sigh...I really get more evidence every day that Generation Y has a shorter attention span than our predecessors because the internet and social media has stupefied us but this case is not black and white. It's actually NOT as simple as "no ticket no appeal".

The question is was he intending to avoid paying the fare, and clearly was not, he paid for a 7 day ticket and a 7 day ticket was issued. He even has proof that he bought the thing.

So you do have grounds for an appeal, they got back to me within a week. It's a no brainier that you did not intend to avoid the fare tso there is one more area they might get you on ,were you careless? They can easily argue that you were because they'll argue "did you not notice two separate bits of cardboard dropped out of the machine?", "did you not look down at the ticket after you took it out?". They might play a game of bluff with you here, and chance that you won't wanna go to court, but TBH I think you'd win if you did, what advantage was there to you in paying for a ticket then not taking it with you? You didn't gain any illicit advantage here, didn't cost Luas money, and letting this go would not be a precedent for anyone else to use in screwing the company out of money, I mean what are they gonna say "AHA!! I know! I'll ...pay for a ticket then not bring it with me...genius! I'll save a fortune...".

You purchased a ticket, there was no intent to defraud, it's not even like a LEAP card where they could make the case that because you say didn't tag on properly you gained the advantage of saving money if you were not checked, because I presume this ticket starts its countdown right away so you have gained nothing by doing this on purpose.

The posters on here are just so used, IMO, to hearing utterly ridiculous and implausible excuses for fare evasion over the years (usually BUT THE DART WAS RIGHT THERE I HAD TO RUN FOR THE TRAIN DONT YOU GET IT!) that I think they do a knee jerk "yo've no case!" without bothering to stop for a second and think it through.
The purpose of Revenue Protection is to deter and punish fare evasion, people AVOIDING paying their fares, not to screw people for being idiots and having a poor attention span from too much twitter. Their job is to protect Luas revenue which was not compromised here, the ticket was paid for.

Hilly Bill

Are you suggesting that the op just use the receipt for the week whilst someone else gets a week free with the original ticket?

XPS_Zero

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Are you suggesting that the op just use the receipt for the week whilst someone else gets a week free with the original ticket?

Did I say that?
Then lets not conclude I was suggesting it.

Hilly Bill

A simple no would have done.

Receipts get left in the machines all the time so anybody can just grab one and said they paid but lost the ticket if that was the case.

XPS_Zero

I was snarky there because I've noticed a tendency with social media users to argue with thing I ddin't say rather than what I actually said. I'm not suggesting he travel with a receipt, clearly he needs to buy a new ticket to travel further. It's not gonna unleash the flood gates for any dope to say that's his ticket by grabbing a receipt from the machine (as the inspector clearly thought he had done) because he can prove from debit card records and the cameras (which are archived) that he did in fact make the purchase.

This proves he intended to pay the fare, indeed DID pay the fare, and made a painfully stupid mistake. Without intent to fare evade, and with him having no practical gain from doing this on purpose, I can't see how a judge would convict him since there is no crime. For there to be a crime you have to have intent /recklessness and gain something from the theft.

If I hear he won his appeal, and then go down to Sandyford now and grab a recepit out of the machine, get on and say it's my ticket, the inspector will roll his eyes and give me a fine. Then I appeal and give the same story as him their first question would be "ok do you have bank statements to prove you purchased this ticket, and tell us the place and time at which you bought it I assume we'll see you on camera". I'd not be able to do either of these and the fine would stand. Luas revenue is protected, we can stop fleeing to the 2012 arcs, the world will not in fact end.

magicbastarder

yeah, this is different to another recent thread where (taking the stories at face value) someone travelled on a luas without the required ticket/proof of purchase/what have you; both being genuine mistakes.
however in the other thread i am alluding to, the mistake resulted in the passenger travelling without paying as a result of their mistake, but in the above scenario, the mistake resulted in the passenger travelling after paying, but having left the actual ticket behind.

the first instance i referred to - the journey was made without paying, thus a standard fare levy is understandable. in this case, i can empathise with the person feeling a bit sore about it, if it is levied.

goingnowhere

What is important to note

Luas needs to show you had no ticket (easy)
Irish Rail need to prove intent to defraud if you don't have a ticket (actually quite tricky)

Okon

The OP should just pay the fine and move on. It'll teach them to pay attention next time they buy a ticket from a machine and take the actual ticket not the receipt. In life it isn't always someone else's fault!

magicbastarder

I don't think the PP was blaming anyone else?

Pro2ac

Good morning - An update on this - My ticket was cancelled. No fine due. Apparently these decisions are reached within a week, but I rang up as I had heard nothing and they confirmed it was cancelled. Thanks for the comments!

o1s1n

Just want to reply on this as I was involved in putting this appeal through.

What we did was correlate the receipt presented on the journey with scans of a bank statement showing that the receipt was indeed the OPs and used to purchase the ticket.

Further to this, we pointed out that as a ticket was lost, the OP had to buy another ticket for the week (therefore being 'punished' for their actions).

I had a similar instance happen to me years and years ago, I appealed it in the same process and that was cancelled too.

So to those above who stated 'There are no excuses, exclusions, escape clauses or otherwise.' - well, you're pretty much wrong, there are. If you are fined and you did have a ticket (but it was misplaced/lost/forgotten etc) create a well put together appeal and send it in.