Should the Charging Infrastructure influence which EV I buy in 2018?

alanowx

I don't own an EV yet but I would love to change my 2011 year diesel for one in 2018.


I'm impressed with the IONIQ and also the new 2018 LEAF in terms of looks/features and let's say for this discussion at least that price won't be a factor. (In the case of the LEAF however I would wait for the white with black roof version - not a fan of the launch black and green colours from the pics i've seen)

So here's the deal

About 75% of my annual mileage comprises regular 280km (175miles) journeys from south Wexford to west Clare and back. So apart from Limerick to Ennis it's all on roads with max speed limit of 100km/h and I normally drive at 85/90km/h anyway. The 25% balance is local round trips of about 50km max. The EV would be fully charged prior to departure at either end.

Taking the worst case scenario and undertaking these trips in the depths of winter, in the cold and dark, I shall estimate the IONIQ's range at roughly 150kms (drop 25%) and the LEAF 168km (drop 30%). Are my assumptions reasonably accurate or am I under/overestimating their winter ranges.?

Now the actual route infrastructure for that 280km trip.

(a)CCS with the IONIQ (2 FCPs on route, Waterford and Limerick)

Wexford to Waterford FCP - distance 82km (Waterford FCP takes me approx 12km off my track and 3.8euro in Tolls)
Waterford to Limerick FCP - distance 122km
Ballysimon FCP to Clare - distance 85Km

It would appear therefore in winter condition that the IONIQ would require 2 rapid charges, one at each FCPs, no matter which direction I was travelling. (Waterford to Clare - 207km, Wexford to Limerick - 197km).

Observations
If either of those two FCPs was out of action I could be up s**t creek. Plan B alternatives, make a detour to cashel FCP (Wexford to Cashel 140km or Clare to Cashel also 140km). Doable perhaps in the IONIQ in winter but maybe cutting it too close.



(B)CHAdeMO with the LEAF has Ennis, Shannon, Limerick x2 + Nissan dealer, Cahir,Waterford, Wexford x1 + Nissan dealer and Killinick FCPs)

Cahir postion is ideally located at 140km midway point from either direction and the trip is doable with 1 FCP charge here, with Cashel as backup close by. It's a pity the Cahir FCP is not also CCS because it just might open up the IONIQ to a 1 Rapid charge trip. Something to think about perhaps

BTW how big a job would it be for Nissan to alter that std type 2 AC socket, add two pins for DC current in such a way that we could still use either std type 2 cable but now have CCS DC fast charging too.

In Summary
TBH my heart is probably with the IONIQ, I just like the car, and it does have the defacto European CCS standard and thus has some furture proofing. However range anxiety and non working FCPs could be a real headache for me in Winter. My head is with the LEAF simply because of the current better CHAdeMO infrastructure but maybe I'm being a little short sighted.

I suspect most EV owners reading this would not even consider a PHEV but from my perspective and the reasons stated I'm also leaning towards the IONIQ PHEV. Then go full EV after say 2 years when the longer range IONIQ EV or KONA EV is available.

Would appreviate some feedback and advice especially from EV qwners who regularly do longer trips

Calahonda52

"About 75% of my annual mileage comprises regular 280km (175miles) journeys from south Wexford to west Clare and back."

A non Tesla or similar BEV is a non runner here IMO

I do 185kms one way in a 30kW leaf every weekend and I drive slow enough to do it in one go, I have given up on the infrastructure on route, long waits, not working, hogged by taxis

KCross

There is a distinct possibility, with the speeds you say you drive at, that the new Leaf will do the trip without stopping.

A 10min FCP stop anywhere along your route would definitely cover you in the new Leaf so range anxiety or out of service chargers etc shouldn't be an issue as you will have multiple alternatives along the route.


I think you should wait until you can get a 24hr test drive in it and drive that route and see for yourself. Then decide.

unkel

Calahonda52 wrote: »

"About 75% of my annual mileage comprises regular 280km (175miles) journeys from south Wexford to west Clare and back."

A non Tesla or similar BEV is a non runner here IMO

I do 185kms one way in a 30kW leaf every weekend and I drive slow enough to do it in one go, I have given up on the infrastructure on route, long waits, not working, hogged by taxis

You can easily do it already in Ioniq with one 15 minute stop in Limerick going to Clare or a 30 minute stop going back, depending exactly what your route is. There are other fast chargers, but I think you might have to take a detour for them.

There are several more fast chargers planned from next year, not just by the ESB, but also by private operators

Try a test drive in say Ioniq (ask for a 24h one) and do your route and see what you think

bp_me

alanowx wrote: »

(a)CCS with the IONIQ (2 FCPs on route, Waterford and Limerick)

Wexford to Waterford FCP - distance 82km (Waterford FCP takes me approx 12km off my track and 3.8euro in Tolls)
Waterford to Limerick FCP - distance 122km
Ballysimon FCP to Clare - distance 85Km

Single point of failure in Waterford could make this awkward. Especially as not so long ago despite it being working the forecourt owner had it blocked by construction works or something similar (believe it's no longer blocked).

Also while it's out of your way there would be no real need to pay the tolls to use it. You could cross through the city and take the portlaw road up to Carrick on Suir to rejoin the N24.

Have you considered a 40kW Zoe? The 22kW charging would remove the single point of failure issue though you may still need to charge en-route in winter.

unkel

Yeah we need to know your start and end point to give you better advice on charging during your trip. I didn't even consider you might need to charge at Waterford FCP. That would be a bad idea. The charger is a joke (in a rough stoney yard area between a few shipping containers round the back of a crappy petrol station. One of the two "EV charging" parking spaces is taken up by a bolted down large picnic table. Only in Ireland

BoatMad

I do regular , once a week in the summer 200 km trip , Gorey to athlone , via Carlow and portlaoise , and once a month in winter. The trip largely follows the N80 . I have a 30 kWh leaf

I will regularly deliver 160 km , winter and summer on that route , I would expect the 40 kWh leaf to easily make the 200 km trip.

I have FCPS in Carlow , portlaoise and kilbeggan, my strategy is generally to charge in Carlow both ways.

Right now in Ireland Chademo has considerably more presence then CCS ,that situation will change, but timescales are unknown.

If you need to make a choice soon , then the new Leaf will have considerable advantages over the current 2017 Ioniq. It remains to be seen what will happen later in 2018.

My experience has been the fast chargers are under serious pressure now in Dublin , but outside the pale I rarely find conjestion , since owning the car , ( early 2016) , I have only experienced three FCP failures , outside Dublin, two at Carlow and one in Athlone ( both recently)

unkel

BoatMad wrote: »

the new Leaf will have considerable advantages over the current 2017 Ioniq.

That's a strong statement! The range of the new Leaf remains to be seen. It is highly likely it will be considerably higher than Ioniq at low speeds. But I very much doubt that will be the case for those of us who like to make a bit of progress and drive on motorways at around 120-130km/h real speed (not indicated)

Or do you just base your statement on available fast charging points that currently exist? Then yes, there are more chademo charge points than CCS. But all new chargepoints will be CCS and who knows several might be installed before the first new Leaf gets its new owner in this country some time into 2018

And another consideration is that the 2016 Ioniq can charge considerably quicker than the 2018 Leaf. The Leaf program director said it will take 40 minutes from 0-80%. Ioniq can do that in less than half that time on any of the new chargers to be installed commercially next year. This is of course very important to someone doing lots of cross country driving

Or in summary - I wouldn't be to quick to make decisions about buying a 2018 EV that needs to drive long distances until I knew a bit more about what the detailed plans are for the new commercial fast charging stations

alanowx

KCross wrote: »

There is a distinct possibility, with the speeds you say you drive at, that the new Leaf will do the trip without stopping.

Isn"t the expected EPA range for the 2018 LEAF stated at 150 miles, 240km, presumably in fair conditions. Even allowing for my light right foot can we really expect it to do 280km. No problem with a stop, usually take a 45mins break anyway. Yes a test drive is a good idea

bp_me wrote: »

Have you considered a 40kW Zoe? The 22kW charging would remove the single point of failure issue though you may still need to charge en-route in winter.

Unfortunately I don't really like the look of the Zoe although I have never seen one in the flesh.

Waterford FCP only comes into play if I choose the IONIQ over the LEAF. Should make trip without incident easily with the LEAF but if only 1 of the two CCS FCP are down I could be in trouble.

Yes I could avoid tolls going the way you suggest and strangely enough according to google maps it would make little difference to overall trip distance. Wexford to Waterford FCP Via city is now 84km (+2km) and Waterford FCP via Portlaw Rd to Limerick Ballysimon FCP is 123km.(+1). Choice boils down to save 3.80 or spend possibly another 20mins in City Traffic

unkel wrote: »

Yeah we need to know your start and end point to give you better advice on charging during your trip. I didn't even consider you might need to charge at Waterford FCP. That would be a bad idea. The charger is a joke (in a rough stoney yard area between a few shipping containers round the back of a crappy petrol station. One of the two "EV charging" parking spaces is taken up by a bolted down large picnic table. Only in Ireland

Basically the jouney in the IONIQ would commences near Rosslare Harbour in Co Wexford and end in Kilrush Co CLare or vica versa.

In summary with a little rounding of the distances, consider it a 280km route with 3 legs
Leg 1 (Home to FCP 1 ) 80km
Leg 2 (FCP 1 to FCP2 ) 120km
Leg 3 (FCP2 to Home ) 80km.

Even leaving with a full charge you can clearly see that the distance to FCP 2 is 200km and beyond the winter range of the IONIQ. This necessitates a stop at FCP 1 to charge. But distance from here to home is 200km which necessitateses again a stop at FCP 2. Of course the distance from FCP 2 to Home will be 80km so a full charge would not be required.

Looking at ecars map and possible CCS detour points I only see one that would make sense and that is Cashel. That FCP is 140km from Home in either direction and I'm not sure the car could do that in winter conditions or perhaps cutting it very fine.

Currently with the IONIQ the only logical way as I see it, to reduce risk of either of the two FCPs being out of action, is to get a full charge at FCP1, go to Cashel detour and again get a full charge. I'm now 140km from home. Travel carefully to FCP2 and if its up get a topup for 80km and bomb it home. If FCP2 is down continue carefully for home and hope their is enough juice in the tank. That's one possible way but avoiding Waterford may not be an option. No doubt alot of hassle which I would avoid in the LEAF or until the IONIQ mk2 comes along or infrastructure improves.

This has been a great exercise for me to do. Fortunately I have a bit of time on my hands and a new player in the market should mean more CCS points. I think I might have to take both yours and KCross's advice and get the cars on loan and try the actual journey myself. Probably this wont happen until next year and ouside winter conditions. Failing that then go for PHEV or LEAF which should do this trip easily in winter with a 1 charge stop.

As this will be your first winter as an IONIQ owner can I ask you unkel that if you do undertake any decent journeys in the coming cold months that you please give us some feedback on the range.

Thanks.

alanowx

BoatMad wrote: »

I do regular , once a week in the summer 200 km trip , Gorey to athlone , via Carlow and portlaoise , and once a month in winter. The trip largely follows the N80 . I have a 30 kWh leaf

I will regularly deliver 160 km , winter and summer on that route , I would expect the 40 kWh leaf to easily make the 200 km trip.

I have FCPS in Carlow , portlaoise and kilbeggan, my strategy is generally to charge in Carlow both ways.

Right now in Ireland Chademo has considerably more presence then CCS ,that situation will change, but timescales are unknown.

If you need to make a choice soon , then the new Leaf will have considerable advantages over the current 2017 Ioniq. It remains to be seen what will happen later in 2018.

My experience has been the fast chargers are under serious pressure now in Dublin , but outside the pale I rarely find conjestion , since owning the car , ( early 2016) , I have only experienced three FCP failures , outside Dublin, two at Carlow and one in Athlone ( both recently)

The full distance door to door of that trip is 280km. KCross is also of the opinion that 2018 LEAF may do it without a topup with a light right foot. I don't know but possibly in summer only. EPA states range at 150 miles (240km). I usually drive that journey at no more than 90km/h - there's no point in going any faster as your going nowhere - just catching up to the next tractor or lorry a minute sooner. I have been doing this journey for a long long time - who needs ProPilot. A short stop is no hassle anyway.

The impression I get from ecars map is that CHAdeMO FCP's are free quite often, at least in the country . Noticed however that down time is high on some like the one in Cahir which is out now for a number of days. If I owned a LEAF this would be my no.1 go to FCP on route because of it's midmway point and a short 15/20mins blast here could do the business.

Alot could happen next year so I think I wont be rushing out to have my 181 by january. It's not as if the cars I've shortlisted, IONIQ EV, IONIQ PHEV or 2018 LEAF are in abundance on forecourts.

BoatMad

alanowx wrote: »

The full distance door to door of that trip is 280km. KCross is also of the opinion that 2018 LEAF may do it without a topup with a light right foot. I don't know but possibly in summer only. EPA states range at 150 miles (240km). I usually drive that journey at no more than 90km/h - there's no point in going any faster as your going nowhere - just catching up to the next tractor or lorry a minute sooner. I have been doing this journey for a long long time - who needs ProPilot. A short stop is no hassle anyway.

The impression I get from ecars map is that CHAdeMO FCP's are free quite often, at least in the country . Noticed however that down time is high on some like the one in Cahir which is out now for a number of days. If I owned a LEAF this would be my no.1 go to FCP on route because of it's midmway point and a short 15/20mins blast here could do the business.

Alot could happen next year so I think I wont be rushing out to have my 181 by january. It's not as if the cars I've shortlisted, IONIQ EV, IONIQ PHEV or 2018 LEAF are in abundance on forecourts.

True , I think we'll see a lot of interesting models in 2018/2019 including perhaps an updated ioniq, kona, 2019 nismo 60 kWh leaf , tesla 3 , and perhaps new models from other manufacturers.

Personally I wouldn't even bother with PHEV , waste of money and just an ice car in disguise

Once you drive a BEV, you'll never go back to ice in any form !

KCross

alanowx wrote: »

Isn"t the expected EPA range for the 2018 LEAF stated at 150 miles, 240km, presumably in fair conditions. Even allowing for my light right foot can we really expect it to do 280km. No problem with a stop, usually take a 45mins break anyway. Yes a test drive is a good idea

I'm only saying may do it without a stop on the basis that you already drive at 80kmh anyway. And I followed up with, even with one 10min stop you should be good in all weather conditions in the 40kWh Leaf.

@unkel has a few videos he can show you of the Ioniq doing 300km's.

If it can do that with a 28kWh usable battery you can be sure the 38(?)kWh Leaf can do it as well with a light foot.

It seems that no matter what way you cut it in the current Ioniq you need to do two stops which makes you much more vulnerable to infrastructure issues as you won't have a plan B if a charger is down. It will also become a chore and since you are doing this trip regularly I think your primary requirement should be doing the trip in as few stops as possible and with your driving style that will definitely be the 40kWh Leaf.

I wouldn't hold out for the supposed 60kWh versions of the Ioniq and Leaf. They could be another year or more away and will undoubtedly be much more expensive. If you want/need a car now and are set on an EV then the new Leaf seems logical to me.

The talk of new chargers is neither here nor there as no one knows when/who/if/where its all going to happen. It might have no material effect to your journey at all if they aren't on your route. Again, if you need a car now the choice seems clear to me based on what you've stated.

Something better will always be on the horizon but you will be waiting forever if you wait for that horizon.

alanowx wrote: »

Waterford FCP only comes into play if I choose the IONIQ over the LEAF. Should make trip without incident easily with the LEAF but if only 1 of the two CCS FCP are down I could be in trouble.

Number 1 goal here should be to reduce your risk and dependence on the public network. The fewer FCP's you have to visit the cheaper it will be also, as charging for charging will come in.

alanowx wrote: »

Currently with the IONIQ the only logical way as I see it, to reduce risk of either of the two FCPs being out of action, is to get a full charge at FCP1, go to Cashel detour and again get a full charge. I'm now 140km from home. Travel carefully to FCP2 and if its up get a topup for 80km and bomb it home. If FCP2 is down continue carefully for home and hope their is enough juice in the tank. That's one possible way but avoiding Waterford may not be an option. No doubt alot of hassle which I would avoid in the LEAF or until the IONIQ mk2 comes along or infrastructure improves.

All too messy in my mind. Read that paragraph back to yourself and see the madness in it.... "travel carefully", "hope there is enough juice", "hassle"....

Note: You can't really charge fully on an FCP unless you are willing to wait a long time and piss off everyone behind you. The Ioniq auto disconnects at 94%(I believe) and the current Leaf is so slow beyond 80% its a PITA waiting for it. We don't know yet what the new Leaf will be like on an FCP beyond 80% but I don't think it will matter to you. Just a quick 10min blast should do you since you said you had destination charging.

alanowx wrote: »

This has been a great exercise for me to do. Fortunately I have a bit of time on my hands and a new player in the market should mean more CCS points. I think I might have to take both yours and KCross's advice and get the cars on loan and try the actual journey myself. Probably this wont happen until next year and ouside winter conditions. Failing that then go for PHEV or LEAF which should do this trip easily in winter with a 1 charge stop.

Definitely get the cars on loan and travel the route. Thats the only way you will know for sure for yourself.

BoatMad

Err, at 90% my leaf is still consuming 25kw in many cases. How is that " piss slow "

Last night , where sending four facebook posts , my charging went from 82% to 90 % !!

KCross

BoatMad wrote: »

Err, at 90% my leaf is still consuming 25kw in many cases. How is that " piss slow "

Last night , where sending four facebook posts , my charging went from 82% to 90 % !!

I don't know how good your typing skills are!

My point is that getting to 80% is fine but after that it slows down quite a lot. At 25kW's, thats roughly half the speed it would be getting upto 80%..... having already sat in the car for probably 30mins at that stage I don't think most people would want to wait for it to get to 100% at an ever reducing charge rate... you could spend another 20mins getting to 100%.... add it all together its not really what most people are willing to do... maybe you are.

BoatMad

KCross wrote: »

I don't know how good your typing skills are!

My point is that getting to 80% is fine but after that it slows down quite a lot. At 25kW's, thats roughly half the speed it would be getting upto 80%..... having already sat in the car for probably 30mins at that stage I don't think most people would want to wait for it to get to 100% at an ever reducing charge rate... you could spend another 20mins getting to 100%.... add it all together its not really what most people are willing to do... maybe you are.

I only ever charge to whoever level Is neccesssary to complete my journey , with a comfortable margin , which I set at 20%

In most cases the journey is planned to recharge around the 30 % mark , so I'm never gong from near zero to 100 %

On many occasions I regularly go from 30 % to 95 % in the 30 kWh leaf and more then often I go to 90 % , this is to complete my journey within the limits I have set out.

at 82 % the leaf starts a charge taper ( depending on fcp software and bat temp ) typically down to 25 kw at around 90 %
My 30 % to 90 % typically remains within my allotted " one tuna sandwich " time limit

One tuna sandwich = , ordering , paying , plus a drink , eating it , and a trip to the loo . I Call it the EV tax !

I have never charged to 100 % at a fcp

thierry14

BoatMad wrote: »

True , I think we'll see a lot of interesting models in 2018/2019 including perhaps an updated ioniq, kona, 2019 nismo 60 kWh leaf , tesla 3 , and perhaps new models from other manufacturers.

Personally I wouldn't even bother with PHEV , waste of money and just an ice car in disguise

Once you drive a BEV, you'll never go back to ice in any form !

I feel the same

60kwh should be enough for almost everyone.

They are just a regular car then and you can drive them into ground not having to worry about degradatation 8 years and 250k km down the line, as even if you lose 20% range, still alot left

I think 2019/2020 they will be widely available and similar priced to todays EV's

Its worth waiting, thats my plan anyway

If you buy brand new you have to keep 10 years to offset depreciation, pointless selling after 3 years, especially with bottom of the barrel stuff like Nissan's, Renault, Citreon, Mitsubishi etc that depreciate like mad

With higher brands like Toyota, VW, BMW, even Hyundai etc it's not so bad, as they depreciate alot less.

BoatMad

thierry14 wrote: »

I feel the same

60kwh should be enough for almost everyone.

They are just a regular car then and you can drive them into ground not having to worry about degradatation 8 years and 250k km down the line, as even if you lose 20% range, still alot left

I think 2019/2020 they will be widely available and similar priced to todays EV's

Its worth waiting, thats my plan anyway

If you buy brand new you have to keep 10 years to offset depreciation, pointless selling after 3 years, especially with bottom of the barrel stuff like Nissan's, Renault, Citreon, Mitsubishi etc that depreciate like mad

With higher brands like Toyota, VW, BMW, even Hyundai etc it's not so bad, as they depreciate alot less.

Hyundai and Toyota are not " higher brands " , that's wishful thinking

Leafs do not depreciate any more then anything else viewed on average over the years since introduction

The current spike in lowering values is due to a temporary aboration will the the Uk Market , not an inherent weakness of the brand. Brexit will end that anyway most likely. Equally the value of ICE 2nd has been decimated by uk imports too.

Note that Hyundai would largely be seen as well below premier Japanese manufacturers like Toyota and Nissan across the complete range.

Ioniq depreciation is completely unproven , given the lack of availability.

My own investigations suggest when I trade my 150,000 km Leaf the value will not be dissimilar to a Nissan diesel of equivalent size, and mileage and the dealer is of the view that there is considerable demand for higher mileage leafs at " appropriate pricing " as urban buyers are looking for a mechanically and visually perfect specimen and are less concerned about range. Hence the older EV has an advantage over an older ICE in that regard

ei9go

unkel wrote: »

Yeah we need to know your start and end point to give you better advice on charging during your trip. I didn't even consider you might need to charge at Waterford FCP. That would be a bad idea. The charger is a joke (in a rough stoney yard area between a few shipping containers round the back of a crappy petrol station. One of the two "EV charging" parking spaces is taken up by a bolted down large picnic table. Only in Ireland

The station is question is being rebranded as applegreen at the moment , wonder has the owner sold it.

Very bad idea to have to depend on this charger.

alanowx

KCross wrote: »

It seems that no matter what way you cut it in the current Ioniq you need to do two stops which makes you much more vulnerable to infrastructure issues as you won't have a plan B if a charger is down. It will also become a chore and since you are doing this trip regularly I think your primary requirement should be doing the trip in as few stops as possible and with your driving style that will definitely be the 40kWh Leaf.

The talk of new chargers is neither here nor there as no one knows when/who/if/where its all going to happen. It might have no material effect to your journey at all if they aren't on your route. Again, if you need a car now the choice seems clear to me based on what you've stated.

Something better will always be on the horizon but you will be waiting forever if you wait for that horizon.

Number 1 goal here should be to reduce your risk and dependence on the public network. The fewer FCP's you have to visit the cheaper it will be also, as charging for charging will come in.

All too messy in my mind. Read that paragraph back to yourself and see the madness in it.... "travel carefully", "hope there is enough juice", "hassle"....

Ouch!!...That's me falling back to earth.:o

I suppose at this point in time there is a certain amount of fascination and intrigue with the prospect of buying and owning an EV in Ireland.
One can easily convince oneself that's OK - I can put up with little inconveniences of non-operational FCPs but - Heck - I own an Electic Car
One's judgement can get a little clouded in the process. Seasoned EV owner like yourselves have been there and have experienced first hand the good and the bad.
That's why I value your opinions.

So I thank you Sir for the Reality Check and saying what needed to be said.

My short list, at least for now, has just got shorter

Calahonda52

Re " Should the Charging Infrastructure influence which EV I buy in 2018? "
Left Donabate on Friday,was heading for Neagh via a meeting in Celbridge.

Decided to top up in Naas: one charging, one waiting.

Got to Mayfield with 11km's left.

FCP head would not engage with my car so hooked up to the 22kW for an hour, so as to get to Midway.
As I arrived, one slot was free: a guy ahead of me in a taxi pulls in, disconnects the charging car, hooks up the taxi, switches the taxi sign to the the car that was charging and drives off in it..........

KCross

Calahonda52 wrote: »

As I arrived, one slot was free: a guy ahead of me in a taxi pulls in, disconnects the charging car, hooks up the taxi, switches the taxi sign to the the car that was charging and drives off in it..........

right or wrong, I'd hit the emergency stop as soon as he was gone.

KCross

KCross wrote: »

There is a distinct possibility, with the speeds you say you drive at, that the new Leaf will do the trip without stopping.

alanowx wrote: »

Isn"t the expected EPA range for the 2018 LEAF stated at 150 miles, 240km, presumably in fair conditions. Even allowing for my light right foot can we really expect it to do 280km. No problem with a stop, usually take a 45mins break anyway. Yes a test drive is a good idea

There was a video posted here:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105294873&postcount=1692

which shows that the new Leaf can do 330km at your speeds!


Your 280km should be more than possible without stopping for the majority of the year in the 2018 Leaf and as stated before, if you really need to, a 10min stop anywhere along the route will more than cover you. So if a charger is out of action or there is a queue just drive on to the next one. No range or charger anxiety.... thats what you need!

unkel

Calahonda52 wrote: »

a guy ahead of me in a taxi pulls in, disconnects the charging car, hooks up the taxi, switches the taxi sign to the the car that was charging and drives off in it..........

He was friendly enough when I met him this summer, but that's just taking the p1ss like that Gorey taxi driver

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

He was friendly enough when I met him this summer, but that's just taking the p1ss like that Gorey taxi driver

I agree with the comment above, if you are charging your taxi at the FCP that's not the intended use. It's for private individuals not to subsidise a business
Yet another reason I can't wait for payment for charging to come in.
It will bring competition (EH hopefully), expand the network and lower prices. And remove the abuse.

reboot

When it comes to charging the Zoe, help your local Renault dealer, Beat yourself up!

liamog

ELM327 wrote: »

Yet another reason I can't wait for payment for charging to come in.
It will bring competition (EH hopefully), expand the network and lower prices. And remove the abuse.

I don't know why anyone would ask for EH, of all the paid networks in the EU they are probably the one I like least. Crappy equipment and a fee structure which encourages charging for as long as possible.

I'd like to see Fastned or one of the Scandinavian operators move in.

thelikelylad

I'd probably be leaning towards the 2018 Leaf if I was doing that journey regularly.

Although looking at Google Maps if you go via Thomastown, Killkenny and the M7 (15 mins longer) it should be possible to do the trip with 1x20ish min stop in the Ioniq.

Rosslare Harbour -> Ballacolla J3/M8 (125km) with Rosscrea FCP as a backup
Ballacolla J3/M8 -> Kilrush (177km)

alanowx

alanowx wrote: »

I don't own an EV yet but I would love to change my 2011 year diesel for one in 2018.


Would appreviate some feedback and advice especially from EV qwners who regularly do longer trips

Well, I just got a BMW I3 33 Kwh Rex, it's got a generator for backup if a public charger is down or got one or 2 people waiting I can just drive on.

After driving a Leaf for almost 3 years and 82,500 Kms I rarely took trips longer than one fast charge. I had the optional 6.6 Kw charger and used this at slow charge points a lot more than the fast chargers which saved me a lot of time hanging around at fast chargers. In the 24 Kwh Leaf this meant 2 hrs for about 55-60% charge and could mean a return trip or a lot less time spent at fast chargers.

The I3 has an 11 Kw AC charger which will be a lot more useful.

The Renault Zoe can charge at 44 Kw from the fast chargers or 22 Kw from the slow charge points and that is not exactly slow. Some Zoe's have only 22 Kw charging so be aware of this.

I decided to get the Rex because in the 3 years I have had the Leaf the network has not improved much at all and still no sight of new chargers being installed.

Naas for instance is still down despite being reported several times and still shows up on the map. The ac side is working I think but after leaving the BMW garage having done the deal on the I3, still driving the Leaf, I arrived at the dead charger and had to find an ac point which saved me, and the 6.6 kw charger meant waiting half the time it would have cost me with the 3.3 Kw charger, anyway, this made me realise that this time around I made a very good decision to get the I3 rex.

Even if you can find a 2014-2016 with older 22 kwh battery , if you can find a Rex then you'll be able to do about 100 kms EV range and Rex for the rest.

It's a small car, perfect for my needs where I'm 95% of the time alone in the car, I can fit 2 child seats in perfectly and room for small buggy in the boot and some shopping or suitcase, it is a small boot but again, perfect for me, we have the Outlander for more space if we need it.

We're heading to Galway at the weekend , a trip I never took in the 24 Kwh leaf nor would I and my Partner would never have allowed me lol. So I am quiet excited about taking the I3. Previously I would have said we'll take the diesel for the longer trips , now I'll only be saying take the diesel for the space !

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

Previously I would have said we'll take the diesel for the longer trips , now I'll only be saying take the diesel for the space !

And when bringing the mother in law

unkel

unkel wrote: »

And when bringing the mother in law

Lol, we can leave her at home !

alanowx

thelikelylad wrote: »

I'd probably be leaning towards the 2018 Leaf if I was doing that journey regularly.

Although looking at Google Maps if you go via Thomastown, Killkenny and the M7 (15 mins longer) it should be possible to do the trip with 1x20ish min stop in the Ioniq.

Rosslare Harbour -> Ballacolla J3/M8 (125km) with Rosscrea FCP as a backup
Ballacolla J3/M8 -> Kilrush (177km)

I've gone that way a good few times just for a change of scenery, but while the New Ross - Thomastown road is a nice "green route", it is lethal in bad weather. Lovely route for cycling, which i was into in my youger days. Before the Waterford by-pass was built I even cut out the city by New Ross - Mullinavat - Piltown. The New Ross bypass I believe is expected to complete sometime in 2019 - and this new River Barrow crossing will apparently, at 900 metres, be the longest bridge in Ireland.

http://www.n25newross.ie/scheme-overview/

I'll be glad to see that built as no doubt people rushing for the ferry will be as New Ross itself can have big delays at times, for rural traffic that is. Heck I've even avoided it by taking Ballyhack-Passage East car ferry, that would be the shortest road jounney for me to Waterford FCP at 65km, but with road improvements now it no longer makes financial sense (e8/e12Rtn).

Other adventures i've tried have been Waterford - Dungarvan (sister here and a break for a cuppa)- Fermoy (TripleHead FCP here)- N20 to Limerick.

But I think the sensible advice taken from comments here is that the least one relies on en-route charging the better and of course the unknown factor of future Rapid charging costs and even reliability of same. I see the Cahir CHAdeMO FCP is still down, according to ecars, must be nearly 2 weeks now.

lawred2

With distances like that surely a hybrid is the right choice

alanowx

Deleted User wrote: »

Well, I just got a BMW I3 33 Kwh Rex, it's got a generator for backup if a public charger is down or got one or 2 people waiting I can just drive on.

After driving a Leaf for almost 3 years and 82,500 Kms I rarely took trips longer than one fast charge. I had the optional 6.6 Kw charger and used this at slow charge points a lot more than the fast chargers which saved me a lot of time hanging around at fast chargers. In the 24 Kwh Leaf this meant 2 hrs for about 55-60% charge and could mean a return trip or a lot less time spent at fast chargers.

The I3 has an 11 Kw AC charger which will be a lot more useful.

The Renault Zoe can charge at 44 Kw from the fast chargers or 22 Kw from the slow charge points and that is not exactly slow. Some Zoe's have only 22 Kw charging so be aware of this.

I decided to get the Rex because in the 3 years I have had the Leaf the network has not improved much at all and still no sight of new chargers being installed.

Naas for instance is still down despite being reported several times and still shows up on the map. The ac side is working I think but after leaving the BMW garage having done the deal on the I3, still driving the Leaf, I arrived at the dead charger and had to find an ac point which saved me, and the 6.6 kw charger meant waiting half the time it would have cost me with the 3.3 Kw charger, anyway, this made me realise that this time around I made a very good decision to get the I3 rex.

Even if you can find a 2014-2016 with older 22 kwh battery , if you can find a Rex then you'll be able to do about 100 kms EV range and Rex for the rest.

It's a small car, perfect for my needs where I'm 95% of the time alone in the car, I can fit 2 child seats in perfectly and room for small buggy in the boot and some shopping or suitcase, it is a small boot but again, perfect for me, we have the Outlander for more space if we need it.

We're heading to Galway at the weekend , a trip I never took in the 24 Kwh leaf nor would I and my Partner would never have allowed me lol. So I am quiet excited about taking the I3. Previously I would have said we'll take the diesel for the longer trips , now I'll only be saying take the diesel for the space !

Never considered a BMW I3 REX. TBH I don't know alot about it except it is too expensive, at least new, for my wallet so it hasn't been on my radar. The boot might be smaller than I'm used but that's interesting info you mentioned all the same. Had quick look online and review seem very positive. I'll have to start reading up on it. I see there is a quick start guide on I3 on BMW website

Just curious - in terms of operation is the BMW I3 Rex like a Prius PHEV in reverse. The Prius has large ICE engine with a small battery to complinent it whereas the BMW has large battery with small engine to complinent it. How many litres does the tank hold and does the I3 Rex require a minimum amount in the tank at all times, not that one should ever let it go empty. Can it operate with no petrol use, ie EV only mode by say by a switch, if one so wishes.

I see there is currently 3 BMW I3 with Range Extenders on bmw approved used cars site http://www.bmwapprovedusedcars.ie/ 151 and 161's, from 26,950 to 34,995. What do you think of those prices.

Not a great fan of the Zoe looks and usually travel with a boot full of stuff and that seems small. Initially had a look at Outlander PHEV which is very popular in UK but s/h prices here are high. I think its about 50K new but a fine machine and great for space. If I was staying ICE the new upcoming Eclipse Cross seems competitive in price and a little more compact than Outlander but economy and co2 figures from petrol 1.5 engine seems poor enough. No diesel engine option, - what a change - a sign of the times I guess.

Just found out in the last few days that the parents house in Clare, built in early 70s, can't take a fast 7.2kW CP without an upgrade to electrics and I don't want to go there. The Electrician I spoke with, who years ago installed large storage heaters that work on Night Rate, said I would only get away with 16A 3.6kW car charger.

Based on that I'd roughly calculate that 2018 40kW Leaf charging at 3.6kwh max could take perhaps 16-18 hours for full charge. Of course one would only be doing so prior to making the long journey and otherwise would only be to 80% charge at most. Still not ideal and food for thought.

alanowx

lawred2 wrote: »

With distances like that surely a hybrid is the right choice

That's why an IONIQ PHEV is on my short list, slightly cheaper also at e31,995 as apposed to e32,495 for Hybrid, all prices before delivery charges.

Unfortunately none in the country and Hyundai HQ have no info when one will be available to inspect, despite being on sale in the UK since June/July.

But there is options. If I want to go true EV like new Leaf but looks like I'll have to wait until March if I went for that. A liitle dissapointed they did not launch the two tone black/white which we saw everywhere in pre-launch media teasers but now they come out with just a black and what looks like some shade of green for the actual launch model :mad:. Don't like it in black, not sure about that Spring Cloud colour yet - might grow on you but I'd like to see first. Again unfortunately according to Nissan HQ they have not a single one in the country either that one can inspect prior to putting down deposit.

I have money put aside for my 181 but as thing are beginning to pan out it looks more like a 182.

alanowx

Deleted User wrote: »

Well, I just got a BMW I3 33 Kwh Rex, it's got a generator for backup if a public charger is down or got one or 2 people waiting I can just drive on...............

Only now just noticed your post "Guess What Mad_Lad Got This Time ?". A very interesting car indeed, congrats on your purchase, and you have already answered on that post my queries on I3 Rex.

We'll defenitely have to investigate this car further.

alanowx

alanowx wrote: »

Only now just noticed your post "Guess What Mad_Lad Got This Time ?". A very interesting car indeed, congrats on your purchase, and you have already answered on that post my queries on I3 Rex.

We'll defenitely have to investigate this car further.

To answer one or more of your questions, the I3 Petrol tank is 9 litres.

regarding the 2nd hand i3's you linked to, the 161's seem expensive for the older 64 Ah batteries. It doesn't say they're the 94 Ah batteries so I assume they are the 64 Ah.

The 151 is not high spec either but it's 27K still the older 64 Ah battery but it's got the rex. 100 odd Km winter range and the ability to continue on petrol. Depends if you can live with a lower spec. The 94 Ah will get you 150 ish winter range.

I'm leasing my I3 but if I were to buy outright it would cost 37,500 it's a 171, leather, professional navigation, advanced bluetooth, parking distance control and park assist and of course the larger 94 Ah battery and 9,000 Kms when I got it so it makes the 161 in Joe Duffy look very expensive.

Contact Rory in Frank Kene motors Naas road and they can have a look out for similar spec for you, Rory is great to deal with !

So whether the older 64 Ah Rex would be suitable for you is something to think about, the Ioniq will offer a lot more EV range but the 64 Ah Rex offers 100 Winter 130 ish Summer range + the Ability to continue with the Rex so you might be able to find a higher spec in the U.K .

I was very lucky to find my I3 with so much spec, missing is adaptive cruise but I can live without it.

thierry14

[Deleted User] wrote: »

To answer one or more of your questions, the I3 Petrol tank is 9 litres.

regarding the 2nd hand i3's you linked to, the 161's seem expensive for the older 64 Ah batteries. It doesn't say they're the 94 Ah batteries so I assume they are the 64 Ah.

The 151 is not high spec either but it's 27K still the older 64 Ah battery but it's got the rex. 100 odd Km winter range and the ability to continue on petrol. Depends if you can live with a lower spec. The 94 Ah will get you 150 ish winter range.

I'm leasing my I3 but if I were to buy outright it would cost 37,500 it's a 171, leather, professional navigation, advanced bluetooth, parking distance control and park assist and of course the larger 94 Ah battery and 9,000 Kms when I got it so it makes the 161 in Joe Duffy look very expensive.

Contact Rory in Frank Kene motors Naas road and they can have a look out for similar spec for you, Rory is great to deal with !

So whether the older 64 Ah Rex would be suitable for you is something to think about, the Ioniq will offer a lot more EV range but the 64 Ah Rex offers 100 Winter 130 ish Summer range + the Ability to continue with the Rex so you might be able to find a higher spec in the U.K .

I was very lucky to find my I3 with so much spec, missing is adaptive cruise but I can live without it.

You'll have to buy it outright Mad_Lad

Will be 26k for 3 years otherwise, thats mental money to just hand back a car

i3 is plenty quick and roomy too, with rex you could keep in 10 years no prob

One question, can you drive on just petrol?

Say i wanted to go Limerick - Belfast and had a drum of petrol in boot

Is car on reduced power in petrol mode/can it Do 120?

cros13

thierry14 wrote: »

i3 is plenty quick and roomy too, with rex you could keep in 10 years no prob

Being a REx owner myself, I'm not a fan of the REx. It has non-trivial downsides to it in the form of €10k on to the purchase price new, reduced range vs the BEV (especially on the 34kWh), a slight loss in performance due to the increased weight, the loss of the heat pump and increases in both road tax and service costs.

thierry14 wrote: »

One question, can you drive on just petrol?

No, not really. The REx is unable to fully keep up with the power demand of even hypermiling below 100km/h. You'd slip into reduced power frequently and have to stop to allow the REx to charge the battery to ~4% before continuing and any kind of positive gradient or hill would be a problem.
The REx cannot be activated even manually until the battery is below 75%.

Apart from manual activation this is the REx behaviour:

thierry14

thierry14 wrote: »

You'll have to buy it outright Mad_Lad

Will be 26k for 3 years otherwise, thats mental money to just hand back a car

i3 is plenty quick and roomy too, with rex you could keep in 10 years no prob

One question, can you drive on just petrol?

Say i wanted to go Limerick - Belfast and had a drum of petrol in boot

Is car on reduced power in petrol mode/can it Do 120?

Buy it ? I could or I could get an EV that might not need a Rex and perhaps the charging network will have improved.

Limerick to Belfast is 362 Kms according to Google Maps. I don't see why you could not do that in the 33 Kwh Rex.

I managed 202 Kms today from Galway to Carlow with a charge to 80% in Kilbeggan, No Rex. 120 Kph until Kilbeggan then Back to Carlow Via Tullamore.

If you enable the Rex at a high battery charge you will not see a reduction in power and the battery charge drops incredibly slower than it would without the Rex in use. I do not know how far I would get on Rex from a battery of 75% at say 120 Kph but you should always be able to reach the next charger or petrol station. This is the Key difference.

It might be better to use the Rex before it kicks in automatically at a low charge of 6%

You could use the Rex on the motorway and then use battery for slower roads or use battery until Rex kicks in to get you to next charge point but risk less power.

The beauty with the rex is that it gives you the peace of mind that you'll reach the next charger or continue if a charger is broken or in use or got 1 charging and another waiting, the BEV owner will have to wait the Rex driver won't. Just keep petrol in the tank.

The 33 Kwh BEV might have some more range but you still got the issue of lack of chargers or fear of one broken, I have no such fears now, as I said I never would have taken the 24 Kwh Leaf on this trip.

peposhi

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Buy it ? I could or I could get an EV that might not need a Rex and perhaps the charging network will have improved.

Limerick to Belfast is 362 Kms according to Google Maps. I don't see why you could not do that in the 33 Kwh Rex.

I managed 202 Kms today from Galway to Carlow with a charge to 80% in Kilbeggan, No Rex. 120 Kph until Kilbeggan then Back to Carlow Via Tullamore.

If you enable the Rex at a high battery charge you will not see a reduction in power and the battery charge drops incredibly slower than it would without the Rex in use. I do not know how far I would get on Rex from a battery of 75% at say 120 Kph but you should always be able to reach the next charger or petrol station. This is the Key difference.

It might be better to use the Rex before it kicks in automatically at a low charge of 6%

You could use the Rex on the motorway and then use battery for slower roads or use battery until Rex kicks in to get you to next charge point but risk less power.

The beauty with the rex is that it gives you the peace of mind that you'll reach the next charger or continue if a charger is broken or in use or got 1 charging and another waiting, the BEV owner will have to wait the Rex driver won't. Just keep petrol in the tank.

The 33 Kwh BEV might have some more range but you still got the issue of lack of chargers or fear of one broken, I have no such fears now, as I said I never would have taken the 24 Kwh Leaf on this trip.

Perhaps my OH is more supportive here Did total of 600km this weekend... well in a 30kwh Leaf though...

I wouldn't have liked to have seen the battery temp ! lol

Sure it can be done but what if a charger is down, in use got 1 person charging and another waiting ?

I've read that owners say that the Rex can continue as long as there's petrol in the tank at 100 Kph or about 120 Kph but at 120 the battery deplete a bit faster.

thierry14

thierry14 wrote: »

One question, can you drive on just petrol?

Say i wanted to go Limerick - Belfast and had a drum of petrol in boot

Is car on reduced power in petrol mode/can it Do 120?

I have not tested it to this extent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vKytCNZflo

Checked today and the I3 has 29.5 of available capacity.

Batter temp was 12.5 Degrees C, thought it would have been warmer since it heats the battery though in fairness it's been sitting since morning. I drove about 55-60 odd kms today when I checked.

cros13

Deleted User wrote: »

Checked today and the I3 has 29.5 of available capacity.

Batter temp was 12.5 Degrees C, thought it would have been warmer since it heats the battery though in fairness it's been sitting since morning. I drove about 55-60 odd kms today when I checked.

It only brings the pack up to temp when preconditioned (with at least 4 hours notice) or after ~5 minutes of driving.

cros13

cros13 wrote: »

It only brings the pack up to temp when preconditioned (with at least 4 hours notice) or after ~5 minutes of driving.

Preconditioned , that meaning cabin preheating ?

I thought it heated the battery when plugged in before it started to charge ?

I had not got heat timer set this morning because I was unsure what time I would be heading out.

cros13

Deleted User wrote: »

Preconditioned , that meaning cabin preheating ?

If time to set departure is more than 4 hours and preconditioning is set the battery is both balanced and preconditioned

If time to set departure is less than 4 hours and preconditioning is set only the cabin is heated