VRT :Open Market Selling Price (OMSP)

reubenreuben

Hi,

Maybe someone on here can clear this up for me.

What determines the OMSP as I have checked the same car and model from 1999 to 2005 and the OMSP does not change.

Is the OMSP not the price the car was at the date it was new?. If so then how can the OMSP remain the same on the same car from 1999 to 2005?

LawlessBoy

reubenreuben wrote: »

Hi,

Maybe someone on here can clear this up for me.

What determines the OMSP as I have checked the same car and model from 1999 to 2005 and the OMSP does not change.

Is the OMSP not the price the car was at the date it was new?. If so then how can the OMSP remain the same on the same car from 1999 to 2005?

As far as im aware, the OMSP is the current value of the car decided by the revenue.

exaisle

LawlessBoy wrote: »

As far as im aware, the OMSP is the current value of the car decided by the revenue.

..and fairly arbitrary too...

If you can find an example or two of a similar car to the one you're importing but with lower prices online, APPEAL immediately. Argue the valuation based on the condition and mileage of your car too.. Revenue will tend to back down and agree a lower valuation...

reubenreuben

LawlessBoy wrote: »

As far as im aware, the OMSP is the current value of the car decided by the revenue.

Thanks, On the vrt form, it states Open Market Selling Price (OMSP) determined by Revenue
This is the original price when it was new I assume. It then states the Current OMSP determined by Revenue
This is the one used by the revenue in connection with the vrt % rate(determined by emissions)

My query is, why is the Open Market Selling Price (OMSP) determined by Revenue the same when the car is 6 year older as in my previous question?

kona

reubenreuben wrote: »

Hi,

Maybe someone on here can clear this up for me.

What determines the OMSP as I have checked the same car and model from 1999 to 2005 and the OMSP does not change.

Is the OMSP not the price the car was at the date it was new?. If so then how can the OMSP remain the same on the same car from 1999 to 2005?

The breakdown gives price when new, less depreciation and arrives at the omsp.

reubenreuben

kona wrote: »

The breakdown gives price when new, less depreciation and arrives at the omsp.

Thanks Kona, but the new price is staying the same, when the car is 1999 or 2005. They can't be right. I tried other cars too, newer ones and it is the same.

For instance a new car in 1999 valued at 25000 euros , will not be 25000 for a new car 6 years later. it would probably be a few thousand more.

DaveyDave

If a car isn't available on the Irish market they say they take the price from Northern Ireland and the UK markets, but take that with a pinch of salt because those prices are pulled out of their arse too.

My sister got a Prius Plus in the UK, they just launched here at the time but she got second hand. Ended up getting something like a third of their VRT refunded back to them...

exaisle

reubenreuben wrote: »

Thanks Kona, but the new price is staying the same, when the car is 1999 or 2005. They can't be right. I tried other cars too, newer ones and it is the same.

For instance a new car in 1999 valued at 25000 euros , will not be 25000 for a new car 6 years later. it would probably be a few thousand more.

You're correct. The system (aka Revenue) can't handle increases in original price, varying rates of depreciation and varying amounts of mileage, hence my "arbitrary" comment.

VRT is an illegal tax. If you have an issue with the original cost as specified by Revenue, OR on the amount of depreciation by which it's written off, then appeal the VRT amount on those bases.

Revenue use a flat rate for depreciation, even though a new car, when driven off the forecourt immediately devalues by about 20%....the rate of depreciation then falls over the course of it's life. However, they think that's a hard sum to work out so they just use a nice easy X% per annum... This can be argued in every case (if it suits you to do so).

colm_mcm

There is a minimum value applied to all cars too for VRT purposes.

Fanny Wank

exaisle wrote: »

VRT is an illegal tax.

Really?

Please explain

DaveyDave

Fanny **** wrote: »

Really?

Please explain

It's not an illegal tax per se, but inhibiting the free trade within the EU by imposing said tax is illegal.

Fanny Wank

DaveyDave wrote: »

It's not an illegal tax per se, but inhibiting the free trade within the EU by imposing said tax is illegal.

Yet the EU haven't acted?

Car99

reubenreuben wrote: »

Hi,

Maybe someone on here can clear this up for me.

What determines the OMSP as I have checked the same car and model from 1999 to 2005 and the OMSP does not change.

Is the OMSP not the price the car was at the date it was new?. If so then how can the OMSP remain the same on the same car from 1999 to 2005?

When it gets to minimum value regarding vrt they no longer adjust the omsp. For instance a 540i 1999 worth 2k minimum vrt in the 36% vrt band is 750 so no point adjusting omsp anymore for an older 540i as any lower omsp will return the same minimum vrt of 750.

CiniO

reubenreuben wrote: »

Hi,

Maybe someone on here can clear this up for me.

What determines the OMSP as I have checked the same car and model from 1999 to 2005 and the OMSP does not change.

Is the OMSP not the price the car was at the date it was new?. If so then how can the OMSP remain the same on the same car from 1999 to 2005?

reubenreuben wrote: »

Thanks, On the vrt form, it states Open Market Selling Price (OMSP) determined by Revenue
This is the original price when it was new I assume. It then states the Current OMSP determined by Revenue
This is the one used by the revenue in connection with the vrt % rate(determined by emissions)

My query is, why is the Open Market Selling Price (OMSP) determined by Revenue the same when the car is 6 year older as in my previous question?

I think you're overthinking this.
There's no difference between Current OMSP or Open Market Selling Price.

Whatever they name it, it's still same thing.

OMSP is a current value (according to revenue) of a vehicle on the market.

I don't know where you got reference to price of vehicle when it was new. That price is irrelevant.

exaisle

Fanny **** wrote: »

Yet the EU haven't acted?

The difficulty is that if somebody wins a case in the courts, the government will just reintroduce it under a different name.
VRT type taxes only exist in Ireland and (afaik)....Denmark. The idea, of course, is to protect the domestic motor industry (and to raise a fortune in tax). However, as DaveyDave above says, it's contrary to the free circulation of goods within the EU.
The unfortunate thing is, this means we all pay well above the going rate in the rest of Europe (excluding Denmark) for our cars.
B@st@rds!

exaisle

Car99 wrote: »

When it gets to minimum value regarding vrt they no longer adjust the omsp. For instance a 540i 1999 worth 2k minimum vrt in the 36% vrt band is 750 so no point adjusting omsp anymore for an older 540i as any lower omsp will return the same minimum vrt of 750.

Where you get a figure which is lower than the miminum OMSP....APPEAL. This sounds very much like another arbitrary calculation on the part of Revenue.
Do not be afraid to appeal and, indeed, to argue the toss. Because of the questionable nature of VRT, it's not in Revenue's interest to contest it too strongly (thereby drawing far more attention to it) so they will often give a decent discount on the original VRT amount.

colm_mcm

exaisle wrote: »

VRT type taxes only exist in Ireland and (afaik)....Denmark.....
The unfortunate thing is, this means we all pay well above the going rate in the rest of Europe (excluding Denmark) for our cars.
B@st@rds!

Nah, there's way more than Denmark and ourselves at it. I'll dig out an old post that has the info, I forget it now.

colm_mcm wrote: »

I think it's acceptable anyway, it's a tax, who doesn't like taxes.
A lot of people compare Ireland to the likes of the U.K. Yes you can buy cars cheaper over there, and their annual tax on cars is often less than here but every country taxes their citizens differently, Denmark is a good example where you can pay 120% taxes on top of the cost of a new car so the car ends up being twice as much to buy as here. They put that money into public services like their public transport system. The U.K. charge council tax, which we don't have here.
Norway is nearly as bad, with two registration taxes, one in weight and another in the power of the car, you could spend the price of the car again on tax.
Finland has a 24% registration tax on new and imported cars.
Austria has a registration tax on new and imported cars.
Portugal has a registration tax on new and imported cars called ISF which is way higher than VRT.
The Irish government spend a staggering amount of money on social welfare for example, this is just the way it treats its citizens - rightly or wrongly, it costs a fortune. We don't spend taxes the exact same as any given country and we don't gather them the exact same either.
We aren't the only country to have a registration tax. It's not a uniquely Irish thing. But like water charges it's a great one to have a moan about.

CiniO

It's quite a lot of misinformation here.

exaisle wrote: »

The difficulty is that if somebody wins a case in the courts, the government will just reintroduce it under a different name.

And what does a name have to do with anything?

VRT type taxes only exist in Ireland and (afaik)....Denmark.

And Netherland, Finland, Austria, Portugal, Greece, Norway, Iceland, Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, and plenty more....

The idea, of course, is to protect the domestic motor industry

It is not.
If that was the case, vehicles manufactured in Ireland would be exempt from VRT, which is not the case.

(and to raise a fortune in tax). However, as DaveyDave above says, it's contrary to the free circulation of goods within the EU.

It is not.

The unfortunate thing is, this means we all pay well above the going rate in the rest of Europe (excluding Denmark) for our cars.
B@st@rds!

That's probably only one thing which is true.
VRT is not a problem.
However how horrendously high it is - is a problem.

colm_mcm

Is VRT horrendously high though?

Aside from things like Subaru WRXs and stuff with high emissions that the govt don't want you bringing in in the first place?

CiniO

colm_mcm wrote: »

Is VRT horrendously high though?

Aside from things like Subaru WRXs and stuff with high emissions that the govt don't want you bringing in in the first place?

IMO it is and it was.
And even worse thing is that it has significant effect on types of vehicles people buy.

Before 2008 rate of 22.5% for up to 1.4 engines, 25% for 1.4-1.9 and 30% for above 1.9.
That caused that majority of cars on Irish roads were up to 1.4.

Current rates of between 14% and 36% when introduced in 2008 were very high as most cars were in over 20% brackets.
Now it has gone down a bit, as technology went forward and cars are less CO2, but still rates are very high.
Also post 2008 rates, caused most of Irish society to switch to diesels which wasn't a good thing either.

Also remember that rates are actually higher than they appear and than they're advertised.

For example let's take 30% rate. It's based on Open market selling price of a vehicle in Ireland (which price already includes VRT). In other words base for calculating VRT already contains VRT.

F.e. car costs €17,500 (for sale in other countries with no VRT). You add €7,500 of VRT and that makes a car price of €25,000. All simple.
30% VRT rate from €25,000 is indeed €7,500.

But when you think about it, it's a €7,500 tax on car worth €17,500, so effective VRT rate is 42.9%, not 30% as they advertise.

VRT rates should be no more than 5% of vehicle price, then they could be called reasonable.

exaisle

CiniO wrote: »

<snip>
And Netherland, Finland, Austria, Portugal, Greece, Norway, Iceland, Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, and plenty more....


It is not.
If that was the case, vehicles manufactured in Ireland would be exempt from VRT, which is not the case.


It is not.
<snip>

I stand corrected regarding the number of countries where VRT (or similar taxes) exist, but if the intention isn't to protect the domestic motor industry or to raise revenue, what IS the point of it?

In fairness, there aren't that many vehicles manufactured in Ireland, are there?

exaisle

CiniO wrote: »

<snip>
For example let's take 30% rate. It's based on Open market selling price of a vehicle in Ireland (which price already includes VRT). In other words base for calculating VRT already contains VRT.

F.e. car costs €17,500 (for sale in other countries with no VRT). You add €7,500 of VRT and that makes a car price of €25,000. All simple.
30% VRT rate from €25,000 is indeed €7,500.

But when you think about it, it's a €7,500 tax on car worth €17,500, so effective VRT rate is 42.9%, not 30% as they advertise. <snip>

I wonder if that's valid grounds for appeal against an assessment of VRT??

CiniO

exaisle wrote: »

I stand corrected regarding the number of countries where VRT (or similar taxes) exist, but if the intention isn't to protect the domestic motor industry or to raise revenue, what IS the point of it?

Well the point is to raise revenue. That's probably the only point.
Also great spread of rates between different kinds of vehicles can have an effect on people being more likely to buy certain types of vehicle than others, like in Ireland initially small engine sh1teboxes before 2008, and then diesels after 2008. Horrible way of doing things.

In fairness, there aren't that many vehicles manufactured in Ireland, are there?

No, not plenty

reubenreuben

CiniO wrote: »

I think you're overthinking this.
There's no difference between Current OMSP or Open Market Selling Price.

Whatever they name it, it's still same thing.

OMSP is a current value (according to revenue) of a vehicle on the market.

I don't know where you got reference to price of vehicle when it was new. That price is irrelevant.

Look at the below for an alfa 159, exactly same car yet 3 years between them. The Open Market Selling Price (OMSP) is the same for both, doesn't make sense. The 2011 one whould be more expensive when new

Breakdown of VRT Calculation

1. Open Market Selling Price (OMSP) determined by Revenue
   
2. €35107
   
   
3. Monthly Adjustment
   
4. +96%
   
   
5. Depreciation Code Allocated by Revenue
   
6. C2
   
   
7. Odometer Reading
   
8. 77000 Miles
   
   
9. Date of First Registration
   
10. March 2011
    
    
11. Mileage/Kilometre Reduction
    
12. €0
    
    
13. Rate of Depreciation for this Vehicle
    
14. 69%
    
    
15. Current OMSP determined by Revenue
    
16. €10447
    

Breakdown of VRT Calculation

1. Open Market Selling Price (OMSP) determined by Revenue
   
2. €35107
   
   
3. Monthly Adjustment
   
4. +96%
   
   
5. Depreciation Code Allocated by Revenue
   
6. C2
   
   
7. Odometer Reading
   
8. 77000 Miles
   
   
9. Date of First Registration
   
10. March 2008
    
    
11. Mileage/Kilometre Reduction
    
12. €0
    
    
13. Rate of Depreciation for this Vehicle
    
14. 86%
    
    
15. Current OMSP determined by Revenue
    
16. €4718
    

CiniO

reubenreuben wrote: »

Look at the below for an alfa 159, exactly same car yet 3 years between them. The Open Market Selling Price (OMSP) is the same for both, doesn't make sense. The 2011 one whould be more expensive when new

Breakdown of VRT Calculation

1. Open Market Selling Price (OMSP) determined by Revenue
   
2. €35107
   
   
3. Monthly Adjustment
   
4. +96%
   
   
5. Depreciation Code Allocated by Revenue
   
6. C2
   
   
7. Odometer Reading
   
8. 77000 Miles
   
   
9. Date of First Registration
   
10. March 2011
    
    
11. Mileage/Kilometre Reduction
    
12. €0
    
    
13. Rate of Depreciation for this Vehicle
    
14. 69%
    
    
15. Current OMSP determined by Revenue
    
16. €10447
    

Breakdown of VRT Calculation

1. Open Market Selling Price (OMSP) determined by Revenue
   
2. €35107
   
   
3. Monthly Adjustment
   
4. +96%
   
   
5. Depreciation Code Allocated by Revenue
   
6. C2
   
   
7. Odometer Reading
   
8. 77000 Miles
   
   
9. Date of First Registration
   
10. March 2008
    
    
11. Mileage/Kilometre Reduction
    
12. €0
    
    
13. Rate of Depreciation for this Vehicle
    
14. 86%
    
    
15. Current OMSP determined by Revenue
    
16. €4718
    

Ahh ok I see what you mean.

On older webiste, I think this what now is indicated as Open Market Selling price, which in your example is €35107, used to be called something like "Vehicle price when new".

Anyway - what should interest you is value shown at Current OMSP determined by Revenue.
All those calculations which are shown how they came with that amount, are completely pointless IMO and nonsense. Just ignore them.

Heres Johnny

You have it wrong. The figure you are looking at is the selling price when new. 2008 Alfa 159 and 2011 159 would be more or less the same when brand new, why wouldn't they be?

The 2008 has depreciated by 86% in 2017 and has an OMSP of 4718 now.

The 2011 has depreciated by 69% in 2017 and has OMSP of 10447.

It's these figures VRT is calculated on so the 2011 will have much higher VRT.

CiniO

Heres Johnny wrote: »

You have it wrong. The figure you are looking at is the selling price when new. 2008 Alfa 159 and 2011 159 would be more or less the same when brand new, why wouldn't they be?

The 2008 has depreciated by 86% in 2017 and has an OMSP of 4718 now.

The 2011 has depreciated by 69% in 2017 and has OMSP of 10447.

It's these figures VRT is calculated on so the 2011 will have much higher VRT.

I think what OP means, is that Alfa 159 couldn't cost exactly the same in 2008 and 2011, as prices of new car fluctuate.
Same as in his OP he mentiones checked a car from 1999 and same model from 2005 and result was exactly same price.

Heres Johnny

CiniO wrote: »

Heres Johnny wrote: »

You have it wrong. The figure you are looking at is the selling price when new. 2008 Alfa 159 and 2011 159 would be more or less the same when brand new, why wouldn't they be?

The 2008 has depreciated by 86% in 2017 and has an OMSP of 4718 now.

The 2011 has depreciated by 69% in 2017 and has OMSP of 10447.

It's these figures VRT is calculated on so the 2011 will have much higher VRT.

I think what OP means, is that Alfa 159 couldn't cost exactly the same in 2008 and 2011, as prices of new car fluctuate.
Same as in his OP he mentiones checked a car from 1999 and same model from 2005 and result was exactly same price.

Would they be different though? If same model I'd expect more or less same price. A car model tends to run 6 years or so.

Think of something out in 2011, say the BMW 5 series which finished this year. I'd say they were same price throughout the run, allowing for special offers that crop up time to time.

reubenreuben

CiniO wrote: »

I think what OP means, is that Alfa 159 couldn't cost exactly the same in 2008 and 2011, as prices of new car fluctuate.
Same as in his OP he mentiones checked a car from 1999 and same model from 2005 and result was exactly same price.

Yes, exactly what I mean.

I also checked an age gap of 6 years on other cars, and the original selling price was the same.
Utter rubbish

CiniO

reubenreuben wrote: »

Yes, exactly what I mean.

I also checked an age gap of 6 years on other cars, and the original selling price was the same.
Utter rubbish

That's why I said to ignore it, and just look at Current OMSP and nothing else.

Supergurrier

It's very open ended tbh.

Was looking at B8.5 Audi S4's on autotrader earlier.

One with 80,000 miles 2013 for 19k sterling in uk

Vrt to be paid is 10k based on an omsp of 34k euros

CJhaughey

It could be argued that the open market selling price should be the EU price as this is all supposed to be a single market is it not?
So if the UK price is 19k sterling or say 23k euro how can the Revenue justify imposing a tax based on a notional value in this island?