Jamie Heaslip's Heir

irishfan9

Who will inherit the throne as Ireland number 8?

irishfan9

thomond2006

That's a cracking tabloid headline.

dub_skav

thomond2006 wrote: »

That's a cracking tabloid headline.

Seems like exactly a decade ago it would have been an a instead of an e.

Well given Heaslip is expected back around Christmas and has another 2.5 years on his current deal this thread may be premature.

I don't think Conan or Stander will ever reach the heights that Heaslip has, but it's an interesting question. Stander is no doubt closer right now and has been a Lions tourist. He is however older and has shown no signs of being able to vary his game and adapt his heirplaystyle.

Conan is well behind Stander in terms of what each has achieved within the game but he has shown a great versatility in a more Heaslipesque vein.

My prediction is that no one player will achieve what Heaslip has achieved in the 8 jersey but as far as Ireland is concerned we've enough of a talent pool there that we can mix and match without any loss of standard.

arsebiscuits1

*insert make way for Willie meme with Max Deegans face hastily cropped onto it*

Think Conan has more to his game but Stander can be very effective in what he does. Could see them playing together at some point depending on POM's form at 6.

Utah_Saint

I am just happy we are spoilt for choice in the backrow.  Plus lots of great talent in the u19 & u20 groups in most provinces (including Ulster...yay!!!!!!!)

Buer

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

*insert make way for Willie meme with Max Deegans face hastily cropped onto it*

You don't know what you're going to get with that request when Venjur is around.

He's gonna bring a whole new meaning to the term "d*ckhead".

The Rape of Lucretia

Hendie ?

prawnsambo

Not sure it merits a thread all by itself, but here goes:











Certainly versatile.

irishfan9

razorblunt

Huge doubts over Conan's ability to absorb wolverine blood.

Neil3030

Both Stander and Conan are TBJs, but I'm not sure they'll reach TBJL.

Buer

To be honest, I'm not sure Conan will ever establish himself as a long term starter for Ireland. I can see him collecting a respectable number of caps but, at 25 now, I'm not seeing a player who is dominating at provincial level the way I'd expect a test player hitting his peak years should. At his age and level of experience, I'd be looking for him to have more of a presence at the breakdown and stand out in the real dog fights.

He is putting in very solid and decent performances but I'd have question marks over his ability to become a prominent player at tier one test level. It doesn't help him that the guys who are probably going to be in the Irish 23 this weekend covering 6 and 8 are all only 2-3 years older than him and well established internationals.

Nor does it help that there's a very highly rated No. 8 coming through now who is only 21 and starting to get a little bit of game time who has a large scope to learn and develop further.

irishfan9

Sort of feel like this is a defining season for Conan's career... step up or step off potentially.

arsebiscuits1

Buer wrote: »

To be honest, I'm not sure Conan will ever establish himself as a long term starter for Ireland. I can see him collecting a respectable number of caps but, at 25 now, I'm not seeing a player who is dominating at provincial level the way I'd expect a test player hitting his peak years should. At his age and level of experience, I'd be looking for him to have more of a presence at the breakdown and stand out in the real dog fights.

He is putting in very solid and decent performances but I'd have question marks over his ability to become a prominent player at tier one test level. It doesn't help him that the guys who are probably going to be in the Irish 23 this weekend covering 6 and 8 are all only 2-3 years older than him and well established internationals.

Nor does it help that there's a very highly rated No. 8 coming through now who is only 21 and starting to get a little bit of game time who has a large scope to learn and develop further.

Not an unreasonable point of view.

To be fair to him he as good as missed the entire 2015/16 season with injury. That was a time where he should have been kicking on after a brilliant breakout season previously.

A year is a long time to miss. Especially when you're an up and coming player with a lot to prove. He had to start again from scratch after that

Former Former

I don't think Conan is as good as Stander tbh, and there isn't much of an age gap.

Stander's form has been pretty poor since the end of last season, but he's a quality player and I don't think Conan is on the same level.

At 25, Conan needs to get motoring. At the same age, Heaslip was starting all three Lions tests in South Africa.

Wegians89

The players I'd like to see come into the debate are jack o donoghue deegan and Doris in 2/3 years time. Conan and stander are both quality players for the next few years mind, stander ti come out on top there.

Buer

Former Former wrote: »

I don't think Conan is as good as Stander tbh, and there isn't much of an age gap.

Agreed. I don't think there's much of a debate there. The bulk of Conan's big performances have come against inferior opposition. He now needs to do it when the chips are down. In terms of a mentor, he has the most robust and dogged No. 8 of the past decade in Europe to learn from so hopefully he starts to display some of those smarts.

Conan is more mobile, has a better skillset and can link play better but Stander is more physical carrier (which can be a double edged sword) but also has a much better presence at the breakdown and I'd see him as possibly a better defensive player too.

I don't see Conan getting his spot. If it was going to be anyone, it would be POM but he's got credit in the bank for the time being and Ruddock is by far the more likely to get into the 6 jersey than Conan in at 8 and Stander moving.

irishfan9

Former Former wrote: »

I don't think Conan is as good as Stander tbh, and there isn't much of an age gap.

Stander's form has been pretty poor since the end of last season, but he's a quality player and I don't think Conan is on the same level.

At 25, Conan needs to get motoring. At the same age, Heaslip was starting all three Lions tests in South Africa.

Heaslip also had less competition for the 8 jersey at his province and no injuries stalling his progress.

But yeah, it's a big year for Conan..

Neil3030

Conan is a fine player, wonderful skill for a big man. But he does lack that presence and physicality that others have mentioned. Stander is the opposite to me, pure piss and vinegar, but perhaps a little one dimensional. If only we could merge the two.

Buer

Wegians89 wrote: »

The players I'd like to see come into the debate are jack o donoghue deegan and Doris in 2/3 years time. Conan and stander are both quality players for the next few years mind, stander ti come out on top there.

JOD needs to get himself fit and start to deliver on his promise. If you had asked me 2 years ago, I'd say he was in line for a 50 cap test career. He's 24 in a few months and I don't see him getting any chance at a cap until next autumn now.

A major issue is the back log of talent in Irish rugby. By that time, there could be another couple of lads knocking on the door.

Larbre34

Heaslip has been a solid presence over the years and has adapted selflessly to different roles assigned to him, but I dont think you ever want a carbon copy replacement at club or country, things be to be changed up occasionally.

I've every respect for Stander and what he's about but.....



Jack.....you're my Number 1 guy......

Former Former

Larbre34 wrote: »

Heaslip has been a solid presence over the years and has adapted selflessly to different roles assigned to him, but I dont think you ever want a carbon copy replacement at club or country, things be to be changed up occasionally.

I would take a carbon copy of Heaslip any day of the week.

irishfan9

Well Leinster have two excellent prospects at 8 in Deegan and Doris, although Doris may be suited to 6 longer term.

gleesonisgod

Buer wrote: »

Agreed. I don't think there's much of a debate there. The bulk of Conan's big performances have come against inferior opposition. He now needs to do it when the chips are down. In terms of a mentor, he has the most robust and dogged No. 8 of the past decade in Europe to learn from so hopefully he starts to display some of those smarts.

Conan is more mobile, has a better skillset and can link play better but Stander is more physical carrier (which can be a double edged sword) but also has a much better presence at the breakdown and I'd see him as possibly a better defensive player too.

I don't see Conan getting his spot. If it was going to be anyone, it would be POM but he's got credit in the bank for the time being and Ruddock is by far the more likely to get into the 6 jersey than Conan in at 8 and Stander moving.

You can be as physical as you want but Conan still makes alot more metres and is a much more natural tackle breaker.

I think CJ is massively overrated tbh. He makes so many carries for little metres.

Also why do people say Conan goes missing in big games? Has been excellent vs Munster this season and last season. He was class vs Clermont in the semi last year, and had a good game vs Scarlets I thought, was comfortably our best carries in both those games. He was also excellent vs Montpellier this year and last year.

What does Cj bring that Conan doesn't?

irishfan9

gleesonisgod wrote: »

You can be as physical as you want but Conan still makes alot more metres and is a much more natural tackle breaker.

I think CJ is massively overrated tbh. He makes so many carries for little metres.

Also why do people say Conan goes missing in big games? Has been excellent vs Munster this season and last season. He was class vs Clermont in the semi last year, and had a good game vs Scarlets I thought, was comfortably our best carries in both those games. He was also excellent vs Montpellier this year and last year.

What does Cj bring that Conan doesn't?

CJ is better at the breakdown anyway

Neil3030

Neil3030 wrote: »

Conan is a fine player, wonderful skill for a big man. But he does lack that presence and physicality that others have mentioned. Stander is the opposite to me, pure piss and vinegar, but perhaps a little one dimensional. If only we could merge the two.

Neil3030

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yeah I was waiting for someone to post either that or a picture of Fanning.

Buer

gleesonisgod wrote: »

You can be as physical as you want but Conan still makes alot more metres and is a much more natural tackle breaker.

I think CJ is massively overrated tbh. He makes so many carries for little metres.

Also why do people say Conan goes missing in big games? Has been excellent vs Munster this season and last season. He was class vs Clermont in the semi last year, and had a good game vs Scarlets I thought, was comfortably our best carries in both those games. He was also excellent vs Montpellier this year and last year.

What does Cj bring that Conan doesn't?

Well, I obviously highlighted these in my original post. I personally didn't say Conan goes missing in big games. He just doesn't deliver his best performances in those matches which suggests that he is still getting up to pace with that level.

Conan makes metres through his mobility and ability to exploit space. For example, against Montpellier he made the most metres of any Leinster forward with the ball in hand (38). But I would imagine about 25 of those came in one carry where he was in the outside channel in space and, when tackled, it was by a back which allowed him power through.

He isn't someone that punches through in the close exchanges but that's fine because he carries to a decent standard there anyway.

His main area (in my opinion) where he needs to improve is the breakdown. He's simply not anywhere near as influential there as other players both for Leinster and Ireland. Stander wins more than his fair share of turnovers/penalties there. Heaslip does too. Even Max Deegan has won a couple there this season. I am very open to correction but it is not an area where Conan has much of a presence at all either in terms of winning possession/penalties or slowing the ball down effectively.

Munster is not a big game anymore. It's a high level Pro14 game and this season's encounter underlined that. Even at that, Conan wasn't exactly leaping out as someone who was excellent. Against Clermont last season, I thought he took a long, long time to get going and was fairly anonymous in the first half before turning in a very decent second half but again, not one where I thought "this guy needs to be starting for Ireland".

CJ is far from the perfect No. 8. He's easily shut down and needs to vary his game significantly. I'm not sure if he has that ability. But at the moment, he has the power and ability to go toe to toe at test level. He might not be able break through with his carries but, when that is the case, he can still make a big contribution defensively and at the breakdown. He is work rate in defence is top class and he definitely has the edge on Conan there.

You highlight the Munster game tihs year as well as Stander's carrying and lack of yardage but both his carries to yards and tackle count were better than Conan that day.