Grading

Bass Reeves

Article in the FI page 4 on grading. 61% of cattle are now falling outside the base grades fromR-2+ to R=4=. This is from an audit of slaughtering from the 3 quarter July-September this year. It is interesting from a number of factors first you would expect that most cattle would be on grass for 3-6 months, while some might be going over/under fat for the R grade most will have fallen onto the P/O grade. It is also intresting because there was an increase in the number of HE/AA slaughtered.

For those of us that were supposed to be paranoid about this over the last few years it seems maybe we were not.It did not go into the whether the slippage have continued into O grade cattle When you consider also that cattle during this period would have heavier carcase's that early year cattle you wonder what way the percentages stack up from Jan-June.

blue5000

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Article in the FI page 4 on grading. 61% of cattle are now falling outside the base grades fromR-2+ to R=4=. This is from an audit of slaughtering from the 3 quarter July-September this year. It is interesting from a number of factors first you would expect that most cattle would be on grass for 3-6 months, while some might be going over/under fat for the R grade most will have fallen onto the P/O grade. It is also intresting because there was an increase in the number of HE/AA slaughtered.

For those of us that were supposed to be paranoid about this over the last few years it seems maybe we were not.It did not go into the whether the slippage have continued into O grade cattle When you consider also that cattle during this period would have heavier carcase's that early year cattle you wonder what way the percentages stack up from Jan-June.

The quality of these is variable at best. Did you see where larry did a bit of research on how calves from different AA and HE sires killed out?

Attie

Bit on cattle grading might be of interest to some. 
Cattle grade

Bass Reeves

Attie wrote: »

Bit on cattle grading might be of interest to some. 
Cattle grade

One glaring thing sticks out in 2015 52% of steers graded O&P and 32% of heifers graded O&P. In 2017. It is now 61% of cattle in general I presume from the article. I like to see a more detailed analysis. Is this because over the last few years processors now break up the carcasses completely and a lot of the meat is packaged for supermarkets so it si immaterial whether it grades R,O or P it is all the same to an extent in a package.

Attie

I'd say you have it in one thats why it's in the factory's interest to keep the grades tight.
All we can do is hope that machines are checked for accuracy very often.
Any one pull them on grade or fat cover ?

Base price

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Article in the FI page 4 on grading. 61% of cattle are now falling outside the base grades fromR-2+ to R=4=. This is from an audit of slaughtering from the 3 quarter July-September this year. It is interesting from a number of factors first you would expect that most cattle would be on grass for 3-6 months, while some might be going over/under fat for the R grade most will have fallen onto the P/O grade. It is also intresting because there was an increase in the number of HE/AA slaughtered.

For those of us that were supposed to be paranoid about this over the last few years it seems maybe we were not.It did not go into the whether the slippage have continued into O grade cattle When you consider also that cattle during this period would have heavier carcase's that early year cattle you wonder what way the percentages stack up from Jan-June.

I'm not being paranoid but I wonder has it anything to do with the Dept changing the VIA specifications in meat plants 2 years ago.
http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/a-new-beef-grading-formula-to-be-rolled-out-at-meat-plants/

Base price

Attie wrote: »

I'd say you have it in one thats why it's in the factory's interest to keep the grades tight.
All we can do is hope that machines are checked for accuracy very often.
Any one pull them on grade or fat cover ?

A few years ago we killed bulls and we weren't happy with their grades/fs. Told the factory to hold them and we arranged a meeting early the next morning to sort it out.
Factory manager showed us the carcasses all of which were graded by the VIA except for 2 that were manually graded. They were manually graded because the ligament broke and they wouldn't hang correctly for the VIA. The manual grading was notably different to the VIA, to our benefit.
We requested to see the VIA, which was granted. After inspecting the VIA I asked several questions regarding - competency of staff, training methods & records keeping - approved and competent authority used to for verification purposes - manufactures guidelines on maximium (hourly) use/life span of the fluorescent bulbs - manufacturers guidelines regarding the replacement of the bulbs i.e. an approved specialist for recalibration purposes. A lengthy discussion ensued and we eventually agreed a mark up of €52 per head.
At that time I was doing a lot of consultancy work on ISO 9001 - Quality Management Systems so I was knowledgeable on evaluation and verification methods used in industry.
Edit - we slaughtered bulls and bullocks in the same factory since then and are happy with the grades, although we quit finishing bulls 3 years ago.

kk.man

Base price wrote: »

Attie wrote: »

I'd say you have it in one thats why it's in the factory's interest to keep the grades tight.
All we can do is hope that machines are checked for accuracy very often.
Any one pull them on grade or fat cover ?

A few years ago we killed bulls and we weren't happy with their grades/fs. Told the factory to hold them and we arranged a meeting early the next morning to sort it out.
Factory manager showed us the carcasses all of which were graded by the VIA except for 2 that were manually graded. They were manually graded because the ligament broke and they wouldn't hang correctly for the VIA. The manual grading was notably different to the VIA, to our benefit.
We requested to see the VIA, which was granted. After inspecting the VIA I asked several questions regarding - competency of staff, training methods & records keeping - approved and competent authority used to for verification purposes - manufactures guidelines on maximium (hourly) use/life span of the fluorescent bulbs - manufacturers guidelines regarding the replacement of the bulbs i.e. an approved specialist for recalibration purposes. A lengthy discussion ensued and we eventually agreed a mark up of €52 per head.
At that time I was doing a lot of consultancy work on ISO 9001 - Quality Management Systems so I was knowledgeable on evaluation and verification methods used in industry.
Edit - we slaughtered bulls and bullocks in the same factory since then and are happy with the grades, although we quit finishing bulls 3 years ago.

Fair play to you. You should be in the IF A far better than those there present.

I had bullocks killed during the summer and one of a batch was graded manually, the rest by machine. The manually graded one was graded a P+. I would consider myself a good judge and was disappointed but I didn't follow it up as I made a good twist on them. I am sorry now I didn't.

patsy_mccabe

What is the technical spec for grading? Is it a ratio of certain dimensions or how does it work. I'd have a fair idea of grades myself as we finished in the past but interesting to see the actual spec.

Base price

kk.man wrote: »

Fair play to you. You should be in the IF A far better than those there present.

I had bullocks killed during the summer and one of a batch was graded manually, the rest by machine. The manually graded one was graded a P+. I would consider myself a good judge and was disappointed but I didn't follow it up as I made a good twist on them. I am sorry now I didn't.

All I did was to stand up for our livelihood, albeit armed with a bit of knowledge.
I doubt I would be welcome within the IFA - I'd rock the boat too much

Base price

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

What is the technical spec for grading? Is it a ratio of certain dimensions or how does it work. I'd have a fair idea of grades myself as we finished in the past but interesting to see the actual spec.

Not sure if this is what you mean but Attie attached a link (above) that explains the grading system.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105196563&postcount=3

tanko

Attie wrote: »

Bit on cattle grading might be of interest to some. 
Cattle grade

Surely there should be a bigger price difference between U and O grades.
I see theres a far bigger difference in Britain France and Italy.

Base price

The other gripe that I have with VIA grading is that apparently there is no recourse/right to dispute the results.
That is just so wrong and I'm surprised :rolleyes: that the main farming body at the time (IFA) agreed to it but apparently its a fait au complet.

patsy_mccabe

Base price wrote: »

Not sure if this is what you mean but Attie attached a link (above) that explains the grading system.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105196563&postcount=3

What I mean is, what exactly defines what each grade is? If someone said to you what is the difference between a R= and U= carcase? How would you explain it in numbers and figures?

Attie

Patsy
In very basic terms the EURO is the carcase conformation ( shape ) and the fat score +/= 12345 the larger the number the more fat on the carcase.
Ideally a U + /= 3 would be a good carcase.

Base price

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

What I mean is, what exactly defines what each grade is? If someone said to you what is the difference between a R= and U= carcase? How would you explain it in numbers and figures?

The original s/EUROP grading system has changed dramatically over the years since it's initial concept. At that time we (farmers) were told that the new system would pay us on the dw over the 5 grades and a fat score of + or -. Since then it has become a mathematical quandary that one would need a science degree to keep up with - plus the fact that the factories move the goal posts every other week.

Cavanjack

tanko wrote: »

Surely there should be a bigger price difference between U and O grades.
I see theres a far bigger difference in Britain France and Italy.

Problem is when the grid was introduced the beef price was lower, maybe €3kg base. So say a u grade over an r was 18 cent that was an increase of 6%.
Now at a base of €3.90 the same 18 cent is only 4.5% of an increase.

cute geoge

If o and p grades prices get any lower ,lads would be better off to shoot every fr and jersey calf the day they were born like p+3 grade steers are back to €3.40

Cavanjack

cute geoge wrote: »

If o and p grades prices get any lower ,lads would be better off to shoot every fr and jersey calf the day they were born like p+3 grade steers are back to €3.40

Saw spring born jex last night horrible yolks with big bellies 180kg. Bid to €200. Don't know if they were sold. It wasn't worth his while rearing them to that.

Robson99

Cavanjack wrote: »

Problem is when the grid was introduced the beef price was lower, maybe €3kg base. So say a u grade over an r was 18 cent that was an increase of 6%.
Now at a base of €3.90 the same 18 cent is only 4.5% of an increase.

This is exactly it. Increments on the grid should be pro rata what it was when established. If beef is € 4 per kg then the increments should be 8 cent. But the boys that done the deal didnt see past the free dinner they were going to get for just getting it signed up.

Bass Reeves

Cavanjack wrote: »

Problem is when the grid was introduced the beef price was lower, maybe €3kg base. So say a u grade over an r was 18 cent that was an increase of 6%.
Now at a base of €3.90 the same 18 cent is only 4.5% of an increase.

Robson99 wrote: »

This is exactly it. Increments on the grid should be pro rata what it was when established. If beef is € 4 per kg then the increments should be 8 cent. But the boys that done the deal didnt see past the free dinner they were going to get for just getting it signed up.

Be careful what you wish for. Any review of the grid will bring in weight limits IMO.The cattle that grade U and higher are often well over 400kgsDW. The grid in reality over penalize's plainer cattle. Lads would want to look closely at the grid and also take into account that QA is not paid on O- or below. Also around the edge's there is more penalty's for plainer calle at 2+ and at O=4= for example.

https://www.slaneyfarmers.com/qps-grid

Cavanjack wrote: »

Saw spring born jex last night horrible yolks with big bellies 180kg. Bid to €200. Don't know if they were sold. It wasn't worth his while rearing them to that.

In reality more than likly not but they are only barely worth that. carcasse weight will struggle to get above 280kgs on good ones. If they were black and white ones they night be worth a punt. Used to buy them as weanlings and kill as sub 24 months bulls. Was a small twist in them at the time as they be killed before Christmas or early January mostly at O-/= and at the time such bulls used to make 3.8-4/Kg. They would kill 270-280kgs on average at the time ration was cheaper than now.

Attie

Base price wrote: »

Attie wrote: »

I'd say you have it in one thats why it's in the factory's interest to keep the grades tight.
All we can do is hope that machines are checked for accuracy very often.
Any one pull them on grade or fat cover ?

A few years ago we killed bulls and we weren't happy with their grades/fs. Told the factory to hold them and we arranged a meeting early the next morning to sort it out.
Factory manager showed us the carcasses all of which were graded by the VIA except for 2 that were manually graded. They were manually graded because the ligament broke and they wouldn't hang correctly for the VIA. The manual grading was notably different to the VIA, to our benefit.
We requested to see the VIA, which was granted. After inspecting the VIA I asked several questions regarding - competency of staff, training methods & records keeping - approved and competent authority used to for verification purposes - manufactures guidelines on maximium (hourly) use/life span of the fluorescent bulbs - manufacturers guidelines regarding the replacement of the bulbs i.e. an approved specialist for recalibration purposes. A lengthy discussion ensued and we eventually agreed a mark up of €52 per head.
At that time I was doing a lot of consultancy work on ISO 9001 - Quality Management Systems so I was knowledgeable on evaluation and verification methods used in industry.
Edit - we slaughtered bulls and bullocks in the same factory since then and are happy with the grades, although we quit finishing bulls 3 years ago.

Good on ye put manners on them.
When I was starting out new a grader used let me watch and explain the grades really good education.
Don't know why teagasc don't run something I think it would be useful.

farawaygrass

Attie wrote: »

Good on ye put manners on them.
When I was starting out new a grader used let me watch and explain the grades really good education.
Don't know why teagasc don't run something I think it would be useful.

At our first knowledge transfer meeting we were asked was there any topic we would like covered or anyone to come and give a talk. I suggested something like you are on about with the factories. Unfortunately there wasn’t any support for the idea. Would have been interesting imo

Attie

farawaygrass wrote: »

Attie wrote: »

Good on ye put manners on them.
When I was starting out new a grader used let me watch and explain the grades really good education.
Don't know why teagasc don't run something I think it would be useful.

At our first knowledge transfer meeting we were asked was there any topic we would like covered or anyone to come and give a talk. I suggested something like you are on about with the factories. Unfortunately there wasn’t any support for the idea. Would have been interesting imo

That's a pity people looking to know how to feed stock and how much and they are not interested in what they are feeding.

kk.man

Attie wrote: »

farawaygrass wrote: »

Attie wrote: »

Good on ye put manners on them.
When I was starting out new a grader used let me watch and explain the grades really good education.
Don't know why teagasc don't run something I think it would be useful.

At our first knowledge transfer meeting we were asked was there any topic we would like covered or anyone to come and give a talk. I suggested something like you are on about with the factories. Unfortunately there wasn’t any support for the idea. Would have been interesting imo

That's a pity people looking to know how to feed stock and how much and they are not interested in what they are feeding.

Watching cattle being graded years ago on a killing line was the best education you would get

jntsnk

Is there any possible photo that can be taken by the factory of each carcass that could show the grade given and why.

Attie

jntsnk wrote: »

Is there any possible photo that can be taken by the factory of each carcass that could show the grade given and why.

Do a search on Google for beef clarification should get a guide to help.

jntsnk

Attie wrote: »

Do a search on Google for beef clarification should get a guide to help.

Thanks but I meant a photo accompanying your carcass grade on the factory statement for each of your cattle.

Bass Reeves

John Heney has an article in todays Farming Indo. It shows a Fr bullocks that graded P+3=. He killed 361kgs. When you consider that at a base of 3.75 this animal would have a net price of 3.45 it really show you the price difference that QA and grading are doing at present.This animal would have netted 1235 after factory deductions. A Hereford or AA grading O= with QA and a breed bonus of 10c/kg killing the same weight would net 1358 and a Continental grading R+ would net 1407 at the same weight.

There are two issues at play here. The first is that cattle grading O- or below are denied the QA. The second is it must be an incentive to processors to grade cattle as hard as possible and this bullock shows it when a lot of beef is packaged inhouse. This is where I am coming from regarding the grading issue

Muckit

Every time l read his articles Bass l think of you! If could get rid of the tillage section, you could do the figures at bottom of page!

Yer both v fond of the black and whites! V similar farms too (good land in dairy country)

Cavanjack

Bass Reeves wrote: »

John Heney has an article in todays Farming Indo. It shows a Fr bullocks that graded P+3=. He killed 361kgs. When you consider that at a base of 3.75 this animal would have a net price of 3.45 it really show you the price difference that QA and grading are doing at present.This animal would have netted 1235 after factory deductions. A Hereford or AA grading O= with QA and a breed bonus of 10c/kg killing the same weight would net 1358 and a Continental grading R+ would net 1407 at the same weight.

There are two issues at play here. The first is that cattle grading O- or below are denied the QA. The second is it must be an incentive to processors to grade cattle as hard as possible and this bullock shows it when a lot of beef is packaged inhouse. This is where I am coming from regarding the grading issue

Does he say what he paid for the bullock as a store?

Bass Reeves

Cavanjack wrote: »

Does he say what he paid for the bullock as a store?

As a matter of interest what has that got to do with it. LW the bullock would have been 720kgs so 400-450 kgs 12 months ago in the 1.4-1.6/kg I imagine with fees and transport on top 650-700 euro.

Cavanjack

Was just wondering did he mane anything on him

Bass Reeves

Cavanjack wrote: »

Was just wondering did he mane anything on him

AFAIK he feeds no meal to finishing cattle they are finished on grass alone. If he bought them in the 600-650 mark they be leaving him over 200/head at a guess.

Bass Reeves

I came across this photo of the grade of a bullock killed in 2013 by JH. IMO the bullock in todays paper is as good if not slightly better
https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/john-heney-killout-weights-have-really-let-me-down-29565613.html

farawaygrass

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I came across this photo of the grade of a bullock killed in 2013 by JH. IMO the bullock in todays paper is as good if not slightly better
https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/john-heney-killout-weights-have-really-let-me-down-29565613.html

In my very humble opinion the one in today’s paper looked better. Wasn’t their a nice lump of meat in the picture, off a supposedly “bad” breed.

Cavanjack

Are the grading machines ever calibrated or checked by the department?

farawaygrass

Cavanjack wrote: »

Are the grading machines ever calibrated or checked by the department?

As far as I know they are checked by department

Bass Reeves

farawaygrass wrote: »

As far as I know they are checked by department

From my understanding there is nobody capable of checking the machine in the Dept. They are supposed to visually check the cattle and compare the opinion to the grade from the machine but AFAIK they are not capable of verifying the digital set up of the actual machine

Cavanjack

Bass Reeves wrote: »

From my understanding there is nobody capable of checking the machine in the Dept. They are supposed to visually check the cattle and compare the opinion to the grade from the machine but AFAIK they are not capable of verifying the digital set up of the actual machine

Yeah I'd be thinking that. They arn't capable of sending an email so this would surely be impossible for them.

Never wrestle with pigs

Bass Reeves wrote: »

From my understanding there is nobody capable of checking the machine in the Dept. They are supposed to visually check the cattle and compare the opinion to the grade from the machine but AFAIK they are not capable of verifying the digital set up of the actual machine

Correct, and the factory knows what day the are coming. Big stamp of authority last year in local factory over a few days with department grading animals and marking all that were grading incorrectly. Guess what happened... nothing. They have so many tricks now it's unbelievable. The grading is only a tip of the iceberg.

So many departments officials on very cusshy numbers that won't rock the boat. Would you blame them? They need to review the way factory's are maned by the department. Move to different places every few months, not get to Comfortable in one place.

Department controlled grading with qualified people manning them. They need to act independent from factory's like cops. The department are broke so this won't happen but it needs to.

Robson99

I dont trust any of them. The blatant conflict of interest that goes on with the factories stopping IFA subscriptions show how ****ed up the whole set up is

Bass Reeves

farawaygrass wrote: »

In my very humble opinion the one in today’s paper looked better. Wasn’t their a nice lump of meat in the picture, off a supposedly “bad” breed.

I did not realise it but if you click on the picture there are two other animals phpto's that you can toggle through. Both are p+3 bullocks and todays bullocks looks way superior

Willfarman

The lack of any recourse and independent complaint and grade checking procedure is the crux of the issue. An excellent piece by John Heney. Prime tender young beef at old canner cow price.

Muckit

Really the beef article could take up the whole page. 2 separate writers. Rearing dairy bred and sucker bred cattle are totally different specialised enterprises now. Both have their tricks to try turn a few pound.

Willfarman

The dairy beef farmer suffers enough discrimination and has been marginalised enough! The Irish are the blacks of Europe and the Irish friesian bullock finisher is the black paedophilic leper of in terms of his status amongst Irish farmers. Remain silent as you have "bad" cattle and are therefore a "bad" farmer while the "good" farmers with "quality" cattle bemoan about not getting enough of a price differential for high grade carcasses.. (the minority of producers but those getting the most political representation)
while knowing jack **** about boning out percentages, marbling or tenderness and end product value being remotely close to warranting the differential that already exists.
I have sheet with a 36 cent differential between a quality dairy cross Hereford bullock and a good black lim suckler bred bullock. Both under 30 months June born and hereford 420kg carcass to Lim 408kg. O- and r+.
12 kgs of prime top shelf hereford beef carcass extra for 100 euro. Move up the sheet to a middle of the road friesian that they put p+ on and there was another 18 kgs for 180€ less. I would love to see the bones out weights of the 3 animals.

Willfarman

http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/beef-from-the-dairy-herd-is-as-good-a-quality-as-beef-from-the-suckler-herd/

Willfarman

https://m.independent.ie/business/farming/beef/worrying-number-of-farmers-complaining-about-grading-at-the-meat-plants-36357273.html

Ring the the ifa or the factory of cattle are incorrectly graded says joe Healy. Ring the ica or the mob for the same results.

If cattle are machine graded THERE IS NO RECOURCE.. That's the deal the ifa done joe.