Different Lane Speed Limits???

Dreamontrack

Speed Limit query; was driving on the m11, was keeping it at 100km because I didn't know the road and hadn't seen a speed sign yet. Eventually met a number of signs along the route, all said 120km. Grand, except a passenger in the car was adamant that the limit for a dual carriageway of this type (not just this specific one, but all of them) is 120km in the right lane and 100km in the left lane. This is obviously nonsense? the posted speed limit is the limit unless superseded by a variable sign for road works or whatever, surely. There was no mention or sign of 100km anywhere! But looking into it,  it does appear that there's a legal basis for such a thing.

Looked through 'Guidelines for the application of special speed limits 2010', which reveals that The Road Traffic Act 2004 includes a provision titled "Introduction of powers for the adoption of separate speed limits on different carriageway and lanes on roads" which "allows for the application of different speed limits on separate lanes of a road or carriageway". The one available news mention of it from the time this change in the law was made says that its at the discretion of local CoCo's to implement if required.

So basically, i want to know does anyone know of any roads in Ireland where this is actually in effect?

(I'm especially curious to know how its signposted to indicate the difference for each lane if its on a multi lane motorway...)

No one I've spoken to had ever heard of such a thing! I'm personally inclined to believe that my passenger wasnt basing their info on anything other than a 'rule' concocted by an overprotective daddy to keep his kids in line and that the fact that theres a legal provision for it is just coincidence, but I'd be happy to be disproven on that score.

TL;DR: any Irish roads have different speed limits for different lanes going the same direction on the same carriageway?

Cookie_Monster

No, there are roads with different limits in different directions, such as the N11 at Kilmacanogue but not different lanes going the same direction.

Well... I suppose you could argue that cycle lanes would have different limits to driving lanes as bicycles are not subject to speed limits, but that's tenuous.

Also the M11 is a motorway so 120 by default applies.

bobbysands81

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

No, there are roads with different limits in different directions, such as the N11 at Kilmacanogue but not different lanes going the same direction.

Well... I suppose you could argue that cycle lanes would have different limits to driving lanes as bicycles are not subject to speed limits, but that's tenuous.

Also the M11 is a motorway so 120 by default applies.

The roads at Kilmacanogue are 2 different roads as they’re split by a median, one is 60km and one is 80km.

On the same stretch of road just past Foxrock church there’s a sign where the speed limit in the bus lane is 60km and speed limit for cars in right hand lane is 80km. No idea if that’s relevant though!

Dreamontrack

Thanks for both replies! Im genuinely curious if theres any basis for it at all; yer one was just so confident saying it that its had me questioning whether it maybe does exist in some far flung corner of the country...

bobbysands81 wrote: »

On the same stretch of road just past Foxrock church there’s a sign where the speed limit in the bus lane is 60km and speed limit for cars in right hand lane is 80km. No idea if that’s relevant though!

This is actually really helpful, it at least gives an idea of how the bloody thing would be signposted if put into effect!

Cookie_Monster

bobbysands81 wrote: »

On the same stretch of road just past Foxrock church there’s a sign where the speed limit in the bus lane is 60km and speed limit for cars in right hand lane is 80km. No idea if that’s relevant though!

Ah yes, true.

Isn't there something about that thicker line on bus lanes technically making it an separate road or something to that effect?

The roads at Kilmacanogue are 2 different roads as they’re split by a median, one is 60km and one is 80km.

Does a median actually make it a separate road though, or simply a separate carriageway on the same road?

Victor

Can I suggest you buy a nice comfy dog house - if the passenger is your wife / mother-in-law?

Dreamontrack wrote: »

Grand, except a passenger in the car was adamant that the limit for a dual carriageway of this type (not just this specific one, but all of them) is 120km in the right lane and 100km in the left lane.

The passenger has confused something. Ask them where they got their information from. It's quite possible that they heard something took it out of context and err ... extrapolated.

Different speed limits are possible in different carriageways and lanes, as noted happens on the N11.

Note that trucks and buses are typically restricted to 80-100 km/h and are required to not occupy the right hand lane unless the speed limit is below that restricted speed.

If the passenger has any queries, I've helped write the speed limit bye-laws in just about every county in the country.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Isn't there something about that thicker line on bus lanes technically making it an separate road or something to that effect?

No, it just makes it a bus lane. The double thickness is to distinguish it from centre lines.

Does a median actually make it a separate road though, or simply a separate carriageway on the same road?

It certainly makes it a different carriageway. In certain cases, it can be a separate road: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/53.38407/-6.20358 - 4 carriageways, 3 different road names.

Dreamontrack

Victor wrote: »

The passenger has confused something. Ask them where they got their information from. It's quite possible that they heard something took it out of context and err ... extrapolated.

Didn't like to ask to be honest, they were in full on "I know what I'm talking about" / "I know these things" mode and generally don't take kindly to even a benign challenge to their expert opinion (despite the fact that they don't actually even drive).

The n11 thing has actually been illuminating, a quick look at Google maps showed just how the different lane speed limits would/should be sign posted if in place, so at least that mystery is solved!

Edit:

Victor wrote: »

Can I suggest you buy a nice comfy dog house - if the passenger is your wife / mother-in-law?

Didn't see this til after I'd posted XD Don't tempt me! It was a colleague so it probably wouldn't go down too well.

Dravokivich

Dreamontrack wrote: »

So basically, i want to know does anyone know of any roads in Ireland where this is actually in effect?

There are gantries that can post speed limits to individual lanes. I don't believe they've been used for that purpose yet though. For example, there's one on the N7 heading towards Dublin City before the Red Cow junction.

In the absence of them, any limit you see posted, is for all traffic in that direction on that road.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Also the M11 is a motorway so 120 by default applies.

The M50 (which feeds into M11) has posted speed limits lower than that for at least half of it.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Ah yes, true.
Isn't there something about that thicker line on bus lanes technically making it an separate road or something to that effect?

Does a median actually make it a separate road though, or simply a separate carriageway on the same road?

A median makes it a separate road. N4 from Liffey Valley to Leixlip is another example.

Seth Brundle

Travelling into Leixlip along the R148, there are different speed limits depending on whether you're coming from the city on the N4 (50km/h) or the M4 Eastbound (60km/h) or the R403 (from Celbridge - 60 km/h). From leixlip towards Lucan, the R148 is 60km/h.
However, this is a cock up and not an intentional use of this legislation.

Dravokivich

kbannon wrote: »

Travelling into Leixlip along the R148, there are different speed limits depending on whether you're coming from the city on the N4 (50km/h) or the M4 Eastbound (60km/h) or the R403 (from Celbridge - 60 km/h). From leixlip towards Lucan, the R148 is 60km/h.
However, this is a cock up and not an intentional use of this legislation.

The OP is on about speed limits for different lanes of traffic in the same direction. Not opposing directions.

MJohnston

I believe this was mentioned already, but here’s how this is signposted when it happens in Ireland (from the N11 near Wyattville Road in Loughlinstown):

Seth Brundle

Dravokivich wrote: »

The OP is on about speed limits for different lanes of traffic in the same direction. Not opposing directions.

Im aware of that. However, although it's not what the OP intended, the road as it heads towards Leixlip has two speed limits 50km/h and 60km/h.

Victor

Dravokivich wrote: »

A median makes it a separate road.

More correctly, it makes it a separate carriageway. Typically it is the same road.

kbannon wrote: »

Im aware of that. However, although it's not what the OP intended, the road as it heads towards Leixlip has two speed limits 50km/h and 60km/h.

This should be hte situation http://product.itoworld.com/map/124?lon=-6.48974&lat=53.36447&zoom=13 (much of Kildare unmapped).

Cookie_Monster

Dravokivich wrote: »

The M50 (which feeds into M11) has posted speed limits lower than that for at least half of it.

So?, I said the default, there are exemptions to that such as the M50 triple lane or the Port Tunnel, or M1 before the airport.

Dravokivich wrote: »

A median makes it a separate road. N4 from Liffey Valley to Leixlip is another example.

source?, as opposed to simply a separate carriageway, part of the same road

Isambard

I often wondered if there were roads with different limits in opposing directions. It makes perfect sense to have a higher limit driving away from a hazard to the limit driving towards it. However different speeds for different lanes sounds unworkable.

Victor

Isambard wrote: »

I often wondered if there were roads with different limits in opposing directions. It makes perfect sense to have a higher limit driving away from a hazard to the limit driving towards it.

Yes, it would make more sense. However, it only seems to happen very occasionally, mostly on dual carriageways near junctions.

However different speeds for different lanes sounds unworkable.

It seems to work OK on the N11, but part of that may be down to the lower limit being a bus lane, where city buses are limited to 65 km/h anyway.

Dravokivich

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

So?, I said the default, there are exemptions to that such as the M50 triple lane or the Port Tunnel, or M1 before the airport.


source?, as opposed to simply a separate carriageway, part of the same road

The one's along the N4 that I've seen have different road names.

Macy0161

Victor wrote: »

It seems to work OK on the N11, but part of that may be down to the lower limit being a bus lane, where city buses are limited to 65 km/h anyway.

Never seen it enforced for taxis or coaches who could potentially break it (looking at you wexford bus). Probably relatively slower than the non-bus lanes, but wouldn't think the higher speed limits are stuck too either.

Sleeper12

The m11 is a motorway rather than a dual carriageway

Some roads have different speeds for different lanes but they are clearly marked. I've been on one recently but for the life of me I can't remember where.
I'm pretty sure certain vehicles have separate speed limits too. An articulated lorry has a max of 80 or 1000s on any road afaik

bobbysands81

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

source?, as opposed to simply a separate carriageway, part of the same road

I believe it’s stated in the Rules of the Road that a median makes roads separate from each other.

Might seem like a small matter but a u-turn on the same road gets you penalty points... a u-turn where there’s a median is actually a right turn thus no penalty points.

Isambard

i've never heard of penalty points for performing a U turn, unless there's a prohibition sign.

Cookie_Monster

bobbysands81 wrote: »

I believe it’s stated in the Rules of the Road that a median makes roads separate from each other.

these have no legal bearing. Quote a statute or forget about it.

Victor

Isambard wrote: »

i've never heard of penalty points for performing a U turn, unless there's a prohibition sign.

And the prohibition sign is usually only where there is a median (there may be a pedestrian crossing present).

Dravokivich

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

these have no legal bearing. Quote a statute or forget about it.

If you are insistent on points of law, you're better off in the legal forum. Very few people outside of there will be familiar with it. Every driver is meant to be informed and tested on the rules of the road.

GM228

bobbysands81 wrote: »

I believe it’s stated in the Rules of the Road that a median makes roads separate from each other.

Might seem like a small matter but a u-turn on the same road gets you penalty points... a u-turn where there’s a median is actually a right turn thus no penalty points.

The median just seperates carriageways.

GM228

Isambard wrote: »

i've never heard of penalty points for performing a U turn, unless there's a prohibition sign.

With or without a sign it's a penalty point offence and only on a dual carriageway.

Isambard

no doubt you have a source for that?

cython

Isambard wrote: »

no doubt you have a source for that?

I expect it's this: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2017/si/244/made/en/print

Performing U-turn on dual-carriageway or other road with central reserve or traffic island where no U-turn sign provided

With an interpretation that it is an offence where no explicit sign facilitating a U-turn is provided, as opposed to only being an offence when an explicit prohibitory sign is provided.

GM228

Sorry I'm in another world at the moment

It's with a sign, not without it. It means with "no U-Turn sign", not with no "U-Turn sign" - big difference.

Victor

The specific prohibition is http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2012/si/332/made/en/print

(m) by substituting for article 35 and article 36 (as amended by article 7 of the Regulations of 1998) the following:

“Ban on U-turns

35. A vehicle being driven on a dual-carriageway or other road that has a central reserve or traffic island must not change direction of travel at a location where traffic sign number RUS 017 (no U-turn) has been provided.

..."