Finishing cattle

L1985

Hi guys. Complete novice at finishing cattle as we have never finished them before. We always sold them at 18 months. So I have 4 animals at around the 500kilos and 18 mths-AA and wh. And I bought another three yesterday LM 500kilos. So I have decided I want to try finishing them. I'll be putting them in their own pen on the slats. So has anyone any advice or suggestions on the best way to do it? I'll be getting advice if some other guys as well but thought I'd ask ppls opinions on here. I want to move towards this in the future and thought these numbers would be a good place to start!!!
Thanks

CloughCasey1

L1985 wrote: »

Hi guys. Complete novice at finishing cattle as we have never finished them before. We always sold them at 18 months. So I have 4 animals at around the 500kilos and 18 mths-AA and wh. And I bought another three yesterday LM 500kilos. So I have decided I want to try finishing them. I'll be putting them in their own pen on the slats. So has anyone any advice or suggestions on the best way to do it? I'll be getting advice if some other guys as well but thought I'd ask ppls opinions on here. I want to move towards this in the future and thought these numbers would be a good place to start!!!
Thanks

Master Bass is the best man to answer this one. Whatever the rest of us put up he will pick holes in it.....and usually rightly so.☺

I'd store them on silage until turnout and paddock graze them in 1 acre sections in rotation from as early as the land/weather allows in the spring. Start feeding them meal from early May and try and have them done for end of July or as the rumours start circling about a pull in price. Make sure properly dosed and thriving.

squinn2912

Very interested to hear some of the opinions from those who are finishing cattle. Is it in your best interest to hang onto them until 27/28 months or could they be finished at 24/25 and in the house? How much meal and at what point do you start?
I'd have thought 50% mixed blend splitting at least 1 bucket between the 5 twice per day but I could be away off.

Who2

Bulls or heifers? Dairy bred or suckler stock

L1985

Thanks all-all bullocks and 5 off suckler, 2 unfortunately look like being off dairy-bit more fresian then whitehead in them!
All v quiet thou.
Squinn2912- these are all of the qs I have as well

Who2

Leave them back to grass and aim for June July finish. Test your silage and meal accordingly then feed on from April may time or go the other way and try finish off grass later in the year

L1985

Ok this is what I've the question on-they will be kept in and fed silage. Do we give them nuts now or hold off? If we give them nuts now how much....?? Or hold off until April and feed them up then....?
Also will it take 6 months to finish them and what weight should I be aiming for with them?( we don't have scales so will be just going by eye) ? Sorry all honestly don't have a clue!!

Who2

L1985 wrote: »

Ok this is what I've the question on-they will be kept in and fed silage. Do we give them nuts now or hold off? If we give them nuts now how much....?? Or hold off until April and feed them up then....?
Also will it take 6 months to finish them and what weight should I be aiming for with them?( we don't have scales so will be just going by eye) ? Sorry all honestly don't have a clue!!

it all depends on how your silage tests out, but I'd be saying most lads would want to be throwing them 3kg on this years silage just to keep them ticking over

Bass Reeves

Winter finishing has gone too expensive so I be sending them back to grass. As Clough Casey says aim for early/mid summer finish. I store my cattle on silage only with minerals and lime. Weight put on with ration is only break even a lot of the time. I start to feed after they are out 4-6 weeks. Feed 3kgs of barley/maize/soyahulls mix and move as fast as they are fit. They should be capable of hitting 350kgs carcass weight by July without too much trouble.

Had a discussion with a lad lately over early summer versus late autumn finish. This guy has suckler cows and runs a WH bull with them He lets them go over 30 months and kills them in November averaging 420kgsDW. They will be FS 4 and 5's and previously he used to be bale to flat price them but failed last year. I think he will fail again this year. He reckons they will kill 70kgs heavier than killing in July. I think he will be luvky to average 3.6/kg even though there will be about 50% 'R's in them at that they will average 1500 euro.

If he killed them them in July at 350kgs with QA and HE bonus this year the base was 4/kg in July. An average grade of O+ would have yielded 1435 each. They would have eaten about 30-35 euro in ration to finish at that stage. I got the impression he was feeding 5kgs with access to silage at present on grass. They will have cost a lot of 100 euro in ration and silage from september to keep flesh on them so he is giving the processors 70kgs extra carcasse weight free. I think this is madness.

L1985

Base reeves- that's really helpful.i don't want to be keeping for too long as I want to keep costs down. No interest in keeping them another twelve months! I love be the way you analyse it as that's the mentality I have!
We have never really fed much meal and only got our first slatted shed two years ago. We have also never tested silage as it's a all bales. So if I'm reading this right no nuts for the moment just silage (it's good quality). I'll keep an eye to make sure they don't go back.Then get them out asap and 6-8 weeks before looking to kill load them with nuts.
This is my other question we just buy in nuts but going off the above should we be mixing all the above and how much works involved in that for eight animals? Would beef finishing nuts be the wrong path and too much expense? Time on my part will possibly be an issue as well...
Also I didn't understand the flat price your on about....it is an averaged price for all the animals? We v rarely send animals to the factory!
Thanks for answering my v naive questions!

Who2

On silage alone surely those cattle will be doing absolutely nothing. If he's eight to go he won't be wanting to pull one now and again as it will be his only batch. At 3 kg of meal on silage for the winter cut of a couple of weeks before they hit grass, then a stint on grass and a decent feeding not push them into 400kg carcasses for July and gone in maybe two batches.

h_orse

Well all, im doing the green cert at the moment and doung a little on finishing cattle. The main point that i picked up on is that its good quality silage required to begin with high dmd and all that craic. Headin into next spring try and get them out as early as possible. If so try and have fields left over from this year to put the cattle out on early next spring. this is of course weather permitting... next springs grass will be better energy than novembers grass so put them inside and give them silage if needed and try and get them out early ðŸ‘👠its all about the pennys

kk.man

First and foremost get your silage tested that will tell you if you need to feed or not. Feeding meals is a fools games as Bass rightly points out. You will get compensatory growth which you can capitalise on next spring. Minerals with 70 + dm matter silage makes sense.
If those cattle are 500kgs now 350kgs dw next July would be arrurate.

Hard Knocks

L1985 wrote: »

We have also never tested silage as it's a all bales. So if I'm reading this right no nuts for the moment just silage (it's good quality).
This is my other question we just buy in nuts but going off the above should we be mixing all the above and how much works involved in that for eight animals?

We use these for testing silage (bales)
https://www.afbini.gov.uk/news/afbi-silage-analysis-key-winter-feeding-management
When you’re putting a bale in, fill the sample bag & send off.

Your Local store should be able to get you 1/2ton bags of Hulls, barley etc

Bass Reeves

Who2 wrote: »

On silage alone surely those cattle will be doing absolutely nothing. If he's eight to go he won't be wanting to pull one now and again as it will be his only batch. At 3 kg of meal on silage for the winter cut of a couple of weeks before they hit grass, then a stint on grass and a decent feeding not push them into 400kg carcasses for July and gone in maybe two batches.

They will do 0.3-0.5,kgs,/ day if silage is fairly good quality 68-73dmd and good level of DM. We. will assume that they are housed now so as to have fields of grass in early March. 80-90 days ration at 3 kgs/ day is 250 ish kgs costing 60 euro if paying 254/ ton. If you carry them to 400 kgs DW you lose HE bonus. 3 kgs of ration will add about 0.2-0.3kgs extra LW/day or 0.15 kgs DW or about an extra 12 kgDW worth 50 euro at 4.15/kg. IMO weight gained with feed is breakeven in most cases. We are throwing beef into factory's that is costing us money lots of time.

I feed to get fat score mainly, grade will come with FS in general. It immaterial if he sell them two or four at the time it as he will have little bargaining power. L1985 I use the mix above as I can buy it as a mix from a feed mill at about 215/ton. In your case I would consider straight barley you can buy in bags for 220/ ton from some co-op and millers

kk.man

Bass, what's the break down of your 'barley/maize/soyahulls' mix as a matter of interest? I'm looking at alternatives for next year.

charolais0153

Bass Reeves wrote: »

They will do 0.3-0.5,kgs,/ day if silage is fairly good quality 68-73dmd and good level of DM. We. will assume that they are housed now so as to have fields of grass in early March. 80-90 days ration at 3 kgs/ day is 250 ish kgs costing 60 euro if paying 254/ ton. If you carry them to 400 kgs DW you lose HE bonus. 3 kgs of ration will add about 0.2-0.3kgs extra LW/day or 0.15 kgs DW or about an extra 12 kgDW worth 50 euro at 4.15/kg. IMO weight gained with feed is breakeven in most cases. We are throwing beef into factory's that is costing us money lots of time.

I feed to get fat score mainly, grade will come with FS in general. It immaterial if he sell them two or four at the time it as he will have little bargaining power. L1985 I use the mix above as I can buy it as a mix from a feed mill at about 215/ton. In your case I would consider straight barley you can buy in bags for 220/ ton from some co-op and millers

Do u have a meal bin for that or do u get it in bulk from them collected

Bass Reeves

kk.man wrote: »

Bass, what's the break down of your 'barley/maize/soyahulls' mix as a matter of interest? I'm looking at alternatives for next year.

charolais0153 wrote: »

Do u have a meal bin for that or do u get it in bulk from them collected

1/3 each no minerals I get it blown into the meal bin. I got the meal bin when there was a grant for it 6-7 years ago. Its a split bin ended up costing less than 2K after vat and grant for an 11 ton split 6.5/4.5. That is for nuts ration or straights are bulkier.If you blow it into a bin only get 6-8 weeks feeding at the time as it can cake if there longer. 1/3 hulls 2/3barley work as well if you have very good barley or straight hulls but they will cake faster. It is all down to price. If hulls are more than 50ish/ton cheaper than the mix I go with Hulls alone. If maize is adding more than 15/ton to the mix I go with barley/hulls but depending on the quality of the barley.

Hard Knocks

Bass Reeves wrote: »

kk.man wrote: »

Bass, what's the break down of your 'barley/maize/soyahulls' mix as a matter of interest? I'm looking at alternatives for next year.

charolais0153 wrote: »

Do u have a meal bin for that or do u get it in bulk from them collected

1/3 each no minerals I get it blown into the meal bin. I got the meal bin when there was a grant for it 6-7 years ago. Its a split bin ended up costing less than 2K after vat and grant for an 11 ton split 6.5/4.5. That is for nuts ration or straights are bulkier.If you blow it into a bin only get 6-8 weeks feeding at the time as it can cake if there longer. 1/3 hulls 2/3barley work as well if you have very good barley or straight hulls but they will cake faster. It is all down to price. If hulls are more than 50ish/ton cheaper than the mix I go with Hulls alone. If maize is adding more than 15/ton to the mix I go with barley/hulls but depending on the quality of the barley.

Does hulls not add fiber only?
Would you feed hulls to finishing cows?

FarmerDougal

kk.man wrote: »

First and foremost get your silage tested that will tell you if you need to feed or not. Feeding meals is a fools games as Bass rightly points out. You will get compensatory growth which you can capitalise on next spring. Minerals with 70 + dm matter silage makes sense.
If those cattle are 500kgs now 350kgs dw next July would be arrurate.

Feeding 2kg/head of maize distillers hulls mix here along with 75dmd pit silage. Have some 82dmd bales aswell and will still feed meal..stores will do 0.6-0.7 over winter. Meal will be cut to zero in jan. Find it helps them settle into shed, with growing cattle of good quality they will be stronger going to grass and gone earlier next summer

Probably cost neutral but has other benefits

Bass Reeves

Hard Knocks wrote: »

Does hulls not add fiber only?
Would you feed hulls to finishing cows?

No hulls especially at grass have a feed value very near to barley even though the ME dose not suggest it. I find Barley/maize/hulls very effective at grass but would not be afraid to try straight hulls depending on price. I think hulls are a great feed at grass for cattle especially at autumn when grass DM drops.

If in the shed finishing cows I would chance replacing the hulls with palm kernal which would up the protein and the ME. Hulls are also a great feed if short of silage as they can be fed at high rates with no digestive upset.

Panch18

silage over the winter to store them and put frame on them

Kill them early to mid summer - 6 weeks of meal starting in June. As they are WH's should have no problem killing them early - just keep an eye on fat score

Panch18

Also - stick to selling them at 18 months - a far more profitable game

Robson99

If it was me I would feed the Whiteheads hard for 70-100 days and kill them. Then buy again. Quicker turnover. It surprising the weight gain the would achieve from 7-10kg / day meal for 3 months
Currently finishing here on a mix of
45% Barley
20% Distillers
20% Citrus Pulp
15% Maize
Above cost € 210 / ton.
+Minerals / Acid Buff and ad lib haylage
Build up to 12kgs day for 6 weeks prior to killing

Bass Reeves

Robson99 wrote: »

If it was me I would feed the Whiteheads hard for 70-100 days and kill them. Then buy again. Quicker turnover. It surprising the weight gain the would achieve from 7-10kg / day meal for 3 months
Currently finishing here on a mix of
45% Barley
20% Distillers
20% Citrus Pulp
15% Maize
Above cost € 210 / ton.
+Minerals / Acid Buff and ad lib haylage
Build up to 12kgs day for 6 weeks prior to killing

Op has 10 cattle so will not have the economies of scale to buy ration at your price. His bullocks are 500kgs if he feeds for 85 days at your costing they will cost 200-210 euro at a guess they will gain 100-110 kgs and IMO kill about 310kgs. At a base of 3.9 they will achieve a price of 1250 inc HE bonus if the all grade O= and none go over fat. Would these bullocks make 1K in the mart at present? The real catrch for OP is that more than likly he pay 250/ton for a bagged nut not as good as your ration so his costs jump to 240 euro.

I hope lads keep on polishing cattle off IMO it a waste of time but lads are into turnover and that is good too. I have ben there done that to arrive at a situtation where the processors grade them o=4= and you lose 6c/kg but get QA and HE bonus. Margins in this game are small but polishing them off for a small lad is a mugs game.

Robson99

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Op has 10 cattle so will not have the economies of scale to buy ration at your price. His bullocks are 500kgs if he feeds for 85 days at your costing they will cost 200-210 euro at a guess they will gain 100-110 kgs and IMO kill about 310kgs. At a base of 3.9 they will achieve a price of 1250 inc HE bonus if the all grade O= and none go over fat. Would these bullocks make 1K in the mart at present? The real catrch for OP is that more than likly he pay 250/ton for a bagged nut not as good as your ration so his costs jump to 240 euro.

I hope lads keep on polishing cattle off IMO it a waste of time but lads are into turnover and that is good too. I have ben there done that to arrive at a situtation where the processors grade them o=4= and you lose 6c/kg but get QA and HE bonus. Margins in this game are small but polishing them off for a small lad is a mugs game.

Anyone can buy ration at that price. Im buying it in Ton & 1/2 ton bags + mixing myself
Personally I also take into account how long the animals have been on the farm and divide this back into the nett profit.
Sometimes lads can say the meal bill was very low but in hindsight they were on the farm 18 months when they could have been pushed and gone in 12 months.
Everyone has there own system I suppose and if 1 was the correct way we would all be at it. None of us getting rich at it that are at it in a small scale

L1985

Thanks all for the comments-it's great to get the different opinions!!
They are a mix with 2WH 3AA and 3limousine. I'll be honest-the first guys didn't get sold when they should have for various reasons....then the limousines came up at a good price in the Mart so thought I'd try finishing them and see how I go!!! Scale is obviously an important consideration as we don't have huge numbers. Re selling at 18 months it has been working for us but I want to see what the profit margin would be on finishing them so We can see if it's a direction to go down going forward!! All those comments on meal is really helpful as gives me an idea what to aim for!! It's great the discussion on it-I know someone just finishing cattle making a very respectable profit so looking to see if we can do the same. More irons in the fire!!

Robson99

L1985 wrote: »

Thanks all for the comments-it's great to get the different opinions!!
They are a mix with 2WH 3AA and 3limousine. I'll be honest-the first guys didn't get sold when they should have for various reasons....then the limousines came up at a good price in the Mart so thought I'd try finishing them and see how I go!!! Scale is obviously an important consideration as we don't have huge numbers. Re selling at 18 months it has been working for us but I want to see what the profit margin would be on finishing them so We can see if it's a direction to go down going forward!! All those comments on meal is really helpful as gives me an idea what to aim for!! It's great the discussion on it-I know someone just finishing cattle making a very respectable profit so looking to see if we can do the same. More irons in the fire!!

Best of luck at it. Hope you are back this time next year telling me what I might be doing wrong. In fairness 6 of them wont break you and youll never know till you have a go at it yourself
One last thing. Knowing when to kill them is as important as any feeding especially WH & AA as the can go fat quickly and this will kill your profit

CloughCasey1

Robson99 wrote: »

Best of luck at it. Hope you are back this time next year telling me what I might be doing wrong. In fairness 6 of them wont break you and youll never know till you have a go at it yourself
One last thing. Knowing when to kill them is as important as any feeding especially WH & AA as the can go fat quickly and this will kill your profit

That is key for the bonus and qa. Fine line between an over fat over 380kg K/O R and a spot on FS O+ and under 380kg K/O.

L1985

Ok-good points. How would you know when they move to fat? I can google it and see if there are any images either that will help me...
Again I know these are all v basic questions it's just dad never fattened so I wouldn't be confident in it at all.
Some guys here have it to a science form so doubt I'll be challenging their systems any time soon!!!

Robson99

L1985 wrote: »

Ok-good points. How would you know when they move to fat? I can google it and see if there are any images either that will help me...
Again I know these are all v basic questions it's just dad never fattened so I wouldn't be confident in it at all.
Some guys here have it to a science form so doubt I'll be challenging their systems any time soon!!!

Best get an agent or someone who is used to finishing them to look at them for you till you get a feel for them yourself. Even then there will always be the odd one to catch you out.
I killed one recently was certain sure she was a 4= or 4+ and was mad with myself for not moving her sooner. Turns out she graded a 3= and then I was kicking myself I didnt leave her another 2-3 weeks as cattle will go up in another week or too.

Cattlepen

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Op has 10 cattle so will not have the economies of scale to buy ration at your price. His bullocks are 500kgs if he feeds for 85 days at your costing they will cost 200-210 euro at a guess they will gain 100-110 kgs and IMO kill about 310kgs. At a base of 3.9 they will achieve a price of 1250 inc HE bonus if the all grade O= and none go over fat. Would these bullocks make 1K in the mart at present? The real catrch for OP is that more than likly he pay 250/ton for a bagged nut not as good as your ration so his costs jump to 240 euro.

I hope lads keep on polishing cattle off IMO it a waste of time but lads are into turnover and that is good too. I have ben there done that to arrive at a situtation where the processors grade them o=4= and you lose 6c/kg but get QA and HE bonus. Margins in this game are small but polishing them off for a small lad is a mugs game.

I have to agree with you on that bass. I've tried it everywayincluding polishing them in large numbers. It just doesn't add up or justify the extra work in mixing the straights and feeding it out.
I wouldn't be concerned with turnover, it's what's leftover that matters!

Bass Reeves

L1985 wrote: »

Ok-good points. How would you know when they move to fat? I can google it and see if there are any images either that will help me...
Again I know these are all v basic questions it's just dad never fattened so I wouldn't be confident in it at all.
Some guys here have it to a science form so doubt I'll be challenging their systems any time soon!!!

Never have much of an issue with either over or under fatcscore with early mid summer finish. For some reason on fairly good grass cattle get into FS 2+ fairly easy end 6-10 weeks feeding gets the right fat score on them. I often could carry them further but price dictates selling. By not moving the 6,8 or how many are ready stops the rest of the bunch finishing

FarmerDougal

Bass Reeves wrote: »

By not moving the 6,8 or how many are ready stops the rest of the bunch finishing

Whys that??

Cavanjack

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Never have much of an issue with either over or under fatcscore with early mid summer finish. For some reason on fairly good grass cattle get into FS 2+ fairly easy end 6-10 weeks feeding gets the right fat score on them. I often could carry them further but price dictates selling. By not moving the 6,8 or how many are ready stops the rest of the bunch finishing

Find that here too. The bigger lads eat more of the grub. It's like the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer.

Bass Reeves

FarmerDougal wrote: »

Bass Reeves wrote: »

By not moving the 6,8 or how many are ready stops the rest of the bunch finishing

Whys that??

The fellas that are finishing fast are gobbling most of the ration so if feeding 3kg/head you will have some eating 3.5-4kgs and one or two barely getting 2kgs. It the same inside a pen no matter how even you think you fill the pen

squinn2912

Ive got 3 pens of bulls for finishing at the moment. They're up to 5kgs/day and are 11 months. Average weight 460kgs so to get them into 660kgs at 1.5 kg/day they need about 135 days and that will take them close to the age. The heaviest is 495 so he will get there no bother.
Is my maths making sense? The silage they're on is about 70 D Value and 13.8 protein. Into 1st cut now so I need to sample again, I think it's a bit better. It's drier anyway. Would like just to hear anyone's opinion on how they're doing at that it's a long time since we've done bulls.

White Clover

squinn2912 wrote: »

Ive got 3 pens of bulls for finishing at the moment. They're up to 5kgs/day and are 11 months. Average weight 460kgs so to get them into 660kgs at 1.5 kg/day they need about 135 days and that will take them close to the age. The heaviest is 495 so he will get there no bother.
Is my maths making sense? The silage they're on is about 70 D Value and 13.8 protein. Into 1st cut now so I need to sample again, I think it's a bit better. It's drier anyway. Would like just to hear anyone's opinion on how they're doing at that it's a long time since we've done bulls.

I wouldn't be much of an authority on bulls, but are you a bit conservative on your dlwg?

squinn2912

White Clover wrote: »

I wouldn't be much of an authority on bulls, but are you a bit conservative on your dlwg?

Thanks I think you might be right. If he’s about 330 days old now and 40kgs born that fella has done 1.35 dlwg so he’s bound to be doing more now

FarmerDougal

1.5kg a day average for the next 135days sounds about right. They will have to be stepped up to full feed in the next month/when there averaging 500kg. Cutting back on the silage and introducing straw. Your silage is 74.6dmd so will need another few kilos of meal to get the performance above IMO

squinn2912

FarmerDougal wrote: »

1.5kg a day average for the next 135days sounds about right. They will have to be stepped up to full feed in the next month/when there averaging 500kg. Cutting back on the silage and introducing straw. Your silage is 74.6dmd so will need another few kilos of meal to get the performance above IMO

Yea hopefully they’ll do a bit better I think we’ll have to get them minerals to keep the stomach cool. Where do you get the 74.6 dmd from?

FarmerDougal

squinn2912 wrote: »

Yea hopefully they’ll do a bit better I think we’ll have to get them minerals to keep the stomach cool. Where do you get the 74.6 dmd from?

70–7.32)/0.84

ppn

Anyone here familiar with Jennings in Ballinrobe? Heard that they offer a flat rate price for dairy-bred stock, at present anyway! Only problem would be getting cattle to them if that is the case though?

charolais0153

ppn wrote: »

Anyone here familiar with Jennings in Ballinrobe? Heard that they offer a flat rate price for dairy-bred stock, at present anyway! Only problem would be getting cattle to them if that is the case though?

Ya. All black and black and white stock goes into that factory