Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Wide cavity wall ties - what's available now?

  • 04-11-2017 10:05am
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,059 ✭✭✭


    Bassalt Teplo wall ties have been recommended for a 200 cavity to reduce thermal bridging.

    Are there now other alternatives on the market?

    What have/are you guys using?


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,182 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Any plastic wall tie will do.

    Thats a large cavity, why so big


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,059 ✭✭✭gooner99


    listermint wrote: »
    Any plastic wall tie will do.

    Thats a large cavity, why so big

    200+ is the norm now. I could be wrong, but I don't think plastic ties will suffice.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,182 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    gooner99 wrote: »
    200+ is the norm now. I could be wrong, but I don't think plastic ties will suffice.

    Plastic ties would have no cold bridge.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,197 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    listermint wrote: »
    Plastic ties would have no cold bridge.

    Cavities over 150mm require structural ties with specialist design. "Any plastic wall tie will do" is an erroneous comment to make as they may not be suitable structurally.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,011 ✭✭✭ht9zni1gs28crp


    listermint wrote: »
    Any plastic wall tie will do.

    Thats a large cavity, why so big

    This folks is the very reason you do not take structural advice off the internet :D

    in fact the two sentences demonstrate the whole ideal of not taking advice off any forum.


  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    listermint wrote: »
    Any plastic wall tie will do.

    Thats a large cavity, why so big

    Please don't follow this advice.
    Cavities above 150mm requires structural sign off by an Engineer to comply with Building Regulations at this width. Normal ties do not meet the requirements for structural codes or indeed the Building Regulations, Construction Product Regulations etc

    Once the cavity exceeds 150mm, the 2 walls are determined to be acting independently of each other and cannot be classed as a twin leaf cavity wall under the EN/Structural codes.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,059 ✭✭✭gooner99


    Thanks guys. Did some searching on the net. Seems steel ties are out due to the thermal bridging caused by the numbers required. That seems to leave Teplo bassalt and Qwik Fix glass fibre. Teplo seem to be widely used going by a search on here, where as there doesn't seem to be much use of Qwik Fix. Teplo I believe are more expensive. That seems to be the choice so far.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    gooner99 wrote: »
    Thanks guys. Did some searching on the net. Seems steel ties are out due to the thermal bridging caused by the numbers required. That seems to leave Teplo bassalt and Qwik Fix glass fibre. Teplo seem to be widely used going by a search on here, where as there doesn't seem to be much use of Qwik Fix. Teplo I believe are more expensive. That seems to be the choice so far.

    Your engineer will confirm which ones comply
    And which ones he/she is happy signing off on.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,059 ✭✭✭gooner99


    kceire wrote: »
    Your engineer will confirm which ones comply
    And which ones he/she is happy signing off on.

    Yes of course. Was just checking to see what else was currently on the market.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 120 ✭✭dfader


    gooner99 wrote: »
    Thanks guys. Did some searching on the net. Seems steel ties are out due to the thermal bridging caused by the numbers required. That seems to leave Teplo bassalt and Qwik Fix glass fibre. Teplo seem to be widely used going by a search on here, where as there doesn't seem to be much use of Qwik Fix. Teplo I believe are more expensive. That seems to be the choice so far.

    Before you believe the sales pitches that steel wall ties create too much of a thermal bridge, get someone who knows how or look up the method on part l yourself to calculate the u value through the wall taking into account the fractional area of steel wall tie per meter squared of wall. Passive houses have been built with steel wall ties and pumped cavity.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,011 ✭✭✭ht9zni1gs28crp


    The cold bridge by the stainless steel ties in our build wasn't deemed great enough to warrant the cost against the basalt ties. The cavity itself had enough in its build up to offset it. So dont rule them out just yet. From memory anything over 200mm the wall ties are installed at say 4 per m2 rather than the traditional 3 per m2.

    Again your engineer will confirm these figures, not taking them off the interwebz :-)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,727 ✭✭✭Metric Tensor


    kceire wrote: »
    Once the cavity exceeds 150mm, the 2 walls are determined to be acting independently of each other and cannot be classed as a twin leaf cavity wall under the EN/Structural codes.

    Not to be a nit picker .... As I go on to nit pick ...

    That's not actually the case kceire. The Eurocodes will treat the wall as a double leaf wall even with wide cavities ... PROVIDED the engineer designs sufficient wall ties to ensure that both leafs act together. This is the reason the guidance documents say that once the cavity is above 150mm the wall has to be designed by an engineer.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35 adrianegan3


    Anyone on here consider a 300 mm Cavity pumped as to get A1 u value and is the cost implications worth it


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,197 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Anyone on here consider a 300 mm Cavity pumped as to get A1 u value and is the cost implications worth it

    You can get A1 rating without having to go to a 300mm cavity. The BER rating depends on far more than just how much insulation you have in your wall, and the cost of building with a 300mm cavity would be far better being spent elsewhere.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Not to be a nit picker .... As I go on to nit pick ...

    That's not actually the case kceire. The Eurocodes will treat the wall as a double leaf wall even with wide cavities ... PROVIDED the engineer designs sufficient wall ties to ensure that both leafs act together. This is the reason the guidance documents say that once the cavity is above 150mm the wall has to be designed by an engineer.

    Maybe my wording of the post didn’t come across the way I thought about.
    But my reasoning was that the wall can be considered as a twin Leaf with the engineers design and the correct wall ties.

    I meant that just knocking up a wall with a 200 cavity and using standard ties, the wall can be be considered as acting separate if I am making any sense???


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35 adrianegan3


    Penn wrote: »
    You can get A1 rating without having to go to a 300mm cavity. The BER rating depends on far more than just how much insulation you have in your wall, and the cost of building with a 300mm cavity would be far better being spent elsewhere.

    Agree was considering putting in the insulated Raft system u value 0.10 so wanted to try keep walls to the same u value was considering the best route to get this . I am a blocklayer so laying of blocks isn’t big expense or putting in Cavity board vs pumped


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,197 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Agree was considering putting in the insulated Raft system u value 0.10 so wanted to try keep walls to the same u value was considering the best route to get this . I am a blocklayer so laying of blocks isn’t big expense or putting in Cavity board vs pumped

    A Raft foundation would help lessen the cost of the wider cavity alright (as I was thinking about the wider rising wall & foundation that would be needed). Then again, such a wide cavity would require a lot of wall ties and at that width, could still be pretty expensive. I think a 200mm cavity would still have a low enough u value that spending the extra money in roof insulation, windows or heating system would be a wiser use of the money to get to an A1 rating.

    An A1 rating really isn't all that difficult to achieve with standard enough details/materials so long as it's properly designed to take everything into consideration.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    And making sure they are all used and fitted correctly on site is the hard job!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,727 ✭✭✭Metric Tensor


    kceire wrote: »
    I meant that just knocking up a wall with a 200 cavity and using standard ties, the wall can be be considered as acting separate if I am making any sense???

    Even worse it might act as a halfway house between the two and lead to all sorts of unpredictable cracking!! :eek:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,059 ✭✭✭gooner99


    kceire wrote: »
    And making sure they are all used and fitted correctly on site is the hard job!

    Are you talking about the wall ties. How can they be wrongly fitted?


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,059 ✭✭✭gooner99


    dfader wrote: »
    Before you believe the sales pitches that steel wall ties create too much of a thermal bridge, get someone who knows how or look up the method on part l yourself to calculate the u value through the wall taking into account the fractional area of steel wall tie per meter squared of wall. Passive houses have been built with steel wall ties and pumped cavity.

    Hi dfader. I take it you have wide cavity and steel ties. Can you pm me the details?

    How is the building performing?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,997 ✭✭✭The_Bullman


    gooner99 wrote: »
    Are you talking about the wall ties. How can they be wrongly fitted?


    Sloped inwards. Drip Upside down. Wrong spacings.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,059 ✭✭✭gooner99


    The cold bridge by the stainless steel ties in our build wasn't deemed great enough to warrant the cost against the basalt ties. The cavity itself had enough in its build up to offset it. So dont rule them out just yet. From memory anything over 200mm the wall ties are installed at say 4 per m2 rather than the traditional 3 per m2.

    Again your engineer will confirm these figures, not taking them off the interwebz :-)

    Hi Faye Itchy Cornflakes.

    Is it a 200mm cavity you have?

    Can you pm me the details of the ties?

    How is the building performing?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,011 ✭✭✭ht9zni1gs28crp


    gooner99 wrote: »
    Hi miller_63.

    Is it a 200mm cavity you have?

    Can you pm me the details of the ties?

    How is the building performing?

    PM sent


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 901 ✭✭✭ColemanY2K


    I discovered a company in england called vista who produce basalt wall ties. thermal conductivity of 0.65W/mK which is slightly better than the teplo tp-2. best of all i found a supplier online in the uk (bs fixings) who sell them for £218.16 for a box of 100 (£2.18 each) + delivery. i can't seem to figure out what length these particular ties are. i fired off an email to get a quote.

    has anyone used the vista wall ties? i'm looking for 375mm wall ties.

    🌞 7.79kWp PV System. Comprised of 4.92kWp Tilting Ground Mount + 2.87kWp @ 27°, azimuth 180°, West Waterford 🌞



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,727 ✭✭✭Metric Tensor


    Get a professional to do a calculation for you to see how much extra heat you'll lose in a year if you just use steel wall ties.

    For that width of cavity I'm guessing the benefits are miniscule when compared to the cost. And the minute amount of carbon difference will probably be offset by hauling them over from the UK!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,175 ✭✭✭kieran.


    gooner99 wrote: »
    Are you talking about the wall ties. How can they be wrongly fitted?
    Sloped inwards. Drip Upside down. Wrong spacings.

    Worst of all incorrect embedment. Very easily spotted in wide cavities and can be fixed with relative ease with remedial helical ties but it gets expensive if the brickie has been careless with their tie placements !!


Advertisement