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ATH First Round match 1 - Omackeral vs Bounty Hunter

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  • 01-11-2017 4:31pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 20,753 ✭✭✭✭


    Here we go folks, the first match up in this years game and its between two experienced players who should be able to show you new guys how its done. On one sie we have Bounty Hunter, our current mod here in PW boards and former host of this game, taking on the former champion our for revenge in Omackeral.
    Simplified version of the rules:

    I will post a topic and you have to post your response including why you made that choice within a given time limit (before the next match is scheduled to begin), take care while making your responses however as the other contestant can counter your arguement i.e pointing out possible flaws in what youve said.

    *you can only counter an arguement two times so make sure your point is worth making. If someone's defense of their arguement isnt good it will count against them.

    *You can use the same answer as your opponent if you wish i.e you agree with their choice however its hard to win a debate when your making the same points someone has already made

    see the OP of the main thread for further details or if any examples are needed check out previous years competitions.

    Both guys know what to expect, so without further ado, heres the question for Omackeral vs Bounty Hunter:

    Q1: Shawn Michaels is coming out of retirment and claims to have one more feud left in him for Wrestlemania next year. Vince wants you to book the feud and the mania match! Who does he feud with? How does the feud start, what builds it up ? What happens in the match itself and and who goes over?


    after your first post: why would your choice be better than your oponents?

    Good luck guys

    Which match/feud would you rather see? 16 votes

    Bounty Hunter - AJ Styles Vs Shawn Michaels
    0% 0 votes
    Omackeral - Dolph Ziggler vs Shawn Michaels
    100% 16 votes


Comments

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 22,672 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bounty Hunter


    Against a former champ in rd1... is my streak of always competing but almost never reaching the latter rounds going to keep going...
    acb7d758b0ef7c141ac02e47643f112ffc9796d6_hq.gif

    at least I hope not!

    That said this might not be as easy a question as one might think, HBK is a legend and someone that I would happily see stay retired despite the fact that I am sure he would still pull off a great match with most potential opponents
    beakerjoe wrote: »
    Q1: Shawn Michaels is coming out of retirment and claims to have one more feud left in him for Wrestlemania next year. Vince wants you to book the feud and the mania match! Who does he feud with? How does the feud start, what builds it up ? What happens in the match itself and and who goes over?

    So who to choose.... well many talk about the dream matches we never really got between HBK and The Rock or CM Punk or even the man from my Gif above Daniel Bryan and although they would all be great matches most of them would not exactly be practical nor am I necessarily a fan of the idea of a non full time wrestler getting such a rub and stealing the limelight at mania.

    This is Mr Wrestlemania though and you just know that the Showstopper would indeed steal the show and that given the right opponent even after his layoff could have an instant classic (nope not going for Christian). For that to be the case though you would want someone at the top of their game today to get in there with the man (HBK) who could arguably be called the best ever so why not get the man I'd argue is the best wrestler in the world today and in doing so guarantee that the bought bout would not only be Iconic but also... Phenomenal!

    yep I'm going with none other than....
    AJ Stylez
    images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSwoRqIEJ5su5dTMbFp5uc35OkLsVVseBGdBeqlXg3G2lHCobRi

    This will be a classic 5+*star match waiting to happen that will work for hardcore and casual fans a like pitting the arguably best of now vs the best of all time. It won't be two part timers and instead sees a full time workhorse getting the rub of appearing in such a match but how would it play out the question asks? well off the top of my head how about this.
    The Build

    Shawn Michaels is already supposed to be appearing at the pre Survivor Series NXT Takeover where he is to ref the main event. After this show he appears on a network special where he glowingly talks about how much he enjoyed being back in a WWE ring and that he in fact had so much fun that he called up his good buddy HHH and asked could he do it all over again and then announces that he will be appearing at the WWE's first post Survivor series PPV (which is currently scheduled to be a Smackdown PPV) Clash of Champions.

    On the Smackdown after SS this gets brought up with a number of Smackdown wrestlers during backstage interviews. All gush over HBK and talk up whatt a coup it is for him to be on a SD only PPV all except one... AJ Styles!

    When AJ is asked he actually sounds a little peeved with Michaels saying that Shawn was great but everyone knows he isn't going to wrestle again and at this stage all he is doing is taking the attention away from where it should be, away from the new headliner, main event and Showstopper AJ Styles a statement he then backs up by announcing that he will indeed be the main event of that PPV when he faces of 1on1 vs Jinder Mahal for the WWE title.

    the announcers will make a big deal of the main event announcement of course but highlight his response to HBKs presence and suggest that perhaps he is bitter that he never got his heavily rumored Wrestlemania 33 (and the rumble preceeding it) match up vs Michaels.

    As the weeks go on and this continues to be a focus of discussion AJ just feels he is being proven correct as all the attention is being payed to a guy who won't even be involved in the main event. He even drops in a somewhat heelish comment, considering it's aimed at HBK, about how thats lucky for the HOFer as he wouldn't be able to cut it anymore against a Phenomenal one such as himself. Of course this just leads to the announcement of why HBK will be at Clash of Champions and that he will in fact be involved in the main event when just like at NXT War games HBK will be the special ref in the main event.
    hbk-ref.jpg

    AJ openly states how much he dislikes this again referencing how a non wrestler is stealing what should be rightfully his spotlight but states that nothing will stop him dethroning Jinder Mahal to once again become WWE World Champion.

    Come the PPV and he looks set to live up to his word except everytime he seems to be about to get the win one thing seems to stop him... the Ref! First he thinks HBK makes a slow count after he hits his flying forearm, then after a Mahal caused ref bump Michaels is nowhere to be seen when Styles Clash is delivered and AJ gets a 3 count that is only counted by the fans. Then finally HBK is unawares (distracted by the Singh brothers) when Mahal taps to the calf crusher in the center of the ring. After this an enraged AJ is distracted both by the Singhs himself and by shouting at the ref to get back in the ring when Mahal hits his Khallas (Cobra clutch slam) for the win.

    After the match as AJ shows his annoyance to HBK, Michaels apologizes to him and extends his hand to shake AJs which reluctantly Styles seems to be accepting... until BOOM! kick to the gut of the Hall of Famer swiftly followed byt a styles clash.
    yoshi-tatsu-neck-break.gif?w=650

    In the weeks that follow now heel AJ would lay all the blame on HBK's door for what happened. Saying not only did he deserve it for his incompetence as a referee and costing him the title but that he did it to himself, he put himself in that match, he wanted everyone to talk about him and he got what he wanted. However he would also point out that HBK had wanted to leave the wrestling ring on his own terms when he retired but now the WWE fans could thank AJ for destroying Michaels and ensuring that he would never, ever set foot in a WWE ring again!

    AJ would go on quite a run on SD then and as The Royal Rumble approaches he would be talked up as on of the favorites with the announcers (despite stating their dislike for him and his actions) highlighting his current mean streak as a reason for this.

    Come the rumble itself and AJ gets an early number but once again the announcers begrudgingly talk up his performance as he dispatches wrestler after wrestler including during an early alliance he forms with Raw's Gallows and Anderson. Shortly after those two are eliminated however and around no.16 in the rumble AJ eliminates the others the remaining wrestlers in the ring with him and Corey Graves utters the words "Who will come out next? and can anyone stop AJ Styles?"

    The answer, made the arena come unglued and created the biggest pop heard in decades

    Styles is stunned as HBK makes his way down and the two go face to face and begin to brawl. They eventually eliminate each other in the fracas but the fighting continues on the outside where eventually WWE officials are forced to separate them. However HBK breaks free from those holding him back and delivers Sweet Chin Music to the Phenomenal one!
    tumblr_mryvxqrSJM1rn94dto1_250.gif

    Thus begins the road to wrestlemania which would see AJ Styles calling HBK out and demanding he face him at mania after once again inserting himself into the spotlight and costing him his chance to main event Wrestlemania just like he had cost him the WWE title the previous month. Logic would dictate at this point given his appearance at the rumble that people wouldn't be surprised when Michaels agrees to one more match but despite this AJ still goes to extremes to get him to do so. Bringing out people like Marty Jannety only to hit him with a Styles clash for example and Insulting the man (HBK) every which way possible from his past to his religion and his family until eventually Michaels would accept the challenge and it would be on!
    AJ-Styles-vs-HBK.jpg

    To be honest I think the result would not matter here as much as in some matches because either man could win and the loser would still hold their head high but given it would be a full time wrestler against HBK and that Michaels would not have a streak or anything on the line I'd wager he would be happy to go out on his back after putting on a stellar match and putting AJ over big time.



    Thats my answer, honestly the booking was off the top of my head but it was logical so I can't claim to be some genius but I guess I will elaborate further later after I see what way my opponent goes with this one.

    G'luck man


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    What a doozy of a question. I've flip flopped between two match-ups a few times here, one of which involved another inactive guy, but I'm going with this one because the question is looking for a feud, a good match and an aftermath pay-off rather than a one off match and that has me leaning towards this programme;

    The Showstopper vs The Show-Off

    hqdefault.jpg



    Why this storyline?

    The similarities between these two is easy to see. Two blonde former world champions with a flair for the flamboyant, not to mention Superkicks, and a pair who can really get it done in the ring. No, they're not 6'3 nor are they 285lbs but they can go with the very best of them. Shawn Michaels is arguably the greatest to ever lace up a pair of boots. He is guaranteed to have a stellar match with anyone, doubly so at WrestleMania. Dolph Ziggler is a man who could possibly have the same in him but we've never got to see him shine at a Mania. The closest we've seen is the night after WrestleMania when he cashed in his Money in the Bank briefcase to become champion in what was one of the loudest pops in the last decade. See here;


    It shows you that if you give him an actual programme or angle, people react. The ending of Survivor Series a couple of years ago had similar story, Dolph was the sole survivor in a match that included John Cena and Seth Rollins. The people again reacted to this crowning moment with great enthusiasm until he was overshadowed by yet another Authority angle and the arrival of Sting, neither of which you could blame him on.

    Dolph has been in limbo for a while but people are always saying ''man, he should go to Japan or tear it up on the indies''. The reason for that is that we all know he can get it done in the ring. We know it. He knows it. His quasi shoot interviews are among the best you'll get but they're always confined to TalkingSmack or backstage exclusives on the Network, depriving the vast majority of his, quite frankly, believable and underrated mic work.

    I feel a feud with Shawn would really light a fire under Ziggler and bring out the best in him. When all is said and done, you'd have a stellar match (hey it's H-B-Shizzle at Mania) and you'd have a re-invigorated DZ ready to finally step up full time and become a proper star rather than what they've given us.

    The Build

    So this coming January, they're having an extravaganza for the 25th Anniversary of RAW. Slated to appear are Hall of Fame legends The Undertaker, Kevin Nash and Shawn Michaels. Not to be outdone by RAW, Shane McMahon is also inviting some special guests to his show, SmackDown Live the very next night. Shane-O is bringing in some past Rumble match winners in the form of 5 time WWE Champion Bret Hitman Hart serving as special guest GM. He's bringing in Dwayne 'The Rock' Johnson' (via satellite...boo!) and since we'll be eminating from Charlotte, North Carolina on that date, who else but The Nature Boy Ric Flair.

    Fast forward to January 23rd and we're only 5 days out from the Royal Rumble PPV. Renee Young is in the ring and introduces her very special guest. ''Ladies and Gentlemen, please welcome, from Charlotte North Carolina... The Nature Boy Ric Flair''. WOOOOOO! The familiar tune of Naitch hits as his World Champion daughter escorts him onto the stage and embraces with him. From here Ric styles and profiles down the ramp on his own, soaking up the adulation. He motions to Renee to hold the ropes open for him, which she duly does, and in he gets. ''WOOOOOO!''. The crowd woo back. ''WOOOOOO!''. Again, NC obliges.
    Renee-Young-Ric-Flair-gifs-001_003.gif
    ''Now you sugar'', he says to Renee. Renee does a meek one back and Flair demands a better one and gets it. Ric flirts and messes around for a bit but then he gets down to business. He talks about he and the Horsemen ran this town and how they were jet flyin, limousine riding, kiss stealing, wheeling dealing sons of guns. He talks about his classics with Ricky the Dragon Steamboat, with Harley Race and with Dusty Rhodes baybay! A huge Dusty chant rings out. He says from the moment he laced them up to the moment he hung them up, Old Space Mountain has had the ride of his life.

    Renee shows clips of Flairs historic Rumble win from 1992 and she asks him which current SmackDown Live superstar he thinks could go all the way this Sunday. Ric mentions big bad Baron Corbin. He name checks The Artist Shinsuke Nakamura as one to watch out for but for him he says that Bobby Roode carries himself like a champion and that Bobby is his pick to win the Royal Rumble and go on to main event WrestleMania and it will be Glorious!
    Suddenly, all we hear over the PA system is ''no, no, no, no, no, no, no, NO!''. The cameras pan to the ramp but there's nobody there. We finally catch sight of a disgruntled looking Dolph Ziggler in the bleachers. He's making his way down the steps. He looks really p*ssed off and is keeping his head down as he continues ''No. Not Bobby Roode, not Shinsuke Nakamura, not Baron Corbin, not anyone but Dolph Ziggler is winning the Royal Rumble and going to WrestleMania to get MY MOMENT!'' He gets into the ring. ''Ric, where's my moment?'' He continues, ''What has Dolph Ziggler ever done at WrestleMania?!? Huh?! Sure, I may have made the greatest ever cash in of a Money the Bank briefcase the world has ever seen the night AFTER WrestleMania but where's my WrestleMania moment. WHERE IS IT RIC, WHERE IS IT!?'' Ziggler's face is beet red at this point. Flair takes his shades off and begins speaking in a sombre tone. ''Listen, Kid, you've got all the potential in the world, I believe that... but what are you doing with it?! What have you being doing with it? I see you around and I know you're good. They know it (gesturing to the crowd). Daniel Bryan and Shane Mc Mahon know it. Hell, Vince knows it. But what do you do? Anytime you lose you whine and moan and moan and whine. It's always someone else's fault Ziggler isn't it? Never your own.''. Ziggler is beginning to get really worked up at this point. Flair continues, ''You complain on Twitter and on social media how you never get opportunites... take them dammit, thats what I did. I became the dirtiest player in the game and took took took and look what it did for me. I'm the greatest World Champion there's ever been. 17 times. Look at these, two Hall of Fame rings. Look at them! Take your opportunities!'' Ziggler, with his head lowered starts back ''You're right. You're absolutely right. Ric, I need to take my opportunites and what better way to do that than to go out and do what you did in 1992 and win the Royal Rumble and go on to WrestleMania!'' Flair , smiling, ''That's the spirit kid, go and win the thing... be the best damn show-off you can be!! WOOOO!!!'' Dolph Woo's back. Then Flair, but louder. Then Dolph but louder again. Dolph does the patented Flair strut and let's out a Woo. He then motions for Ric to do the same. Flair struts like only he can do and BAM... Superkick straight on the chin. Dolph leans over a fallen Flair and says ''I'll take more than an opportunity old man'' and locks in his sleeper hold. Flair passes out. Ziggler pries Ric's Hall of Fame rings from both his hands and stuffs them in his crotch, in a blatant show of disrespect. Tye Dillinger, Zack Ryder, Mojo Rawley and Breezango come out from the locker room but DZ hightails it back through the crowd with a scowl on his face.
    d58ac920c4f607b631067da4a6cb3ef6_crop_north.jpg?1470199235&w=630&h=420



    WWE-Royal-Rumble-2017-logo-full.png

    Royal Rumble rolls around and the card is stacked. Our two championship matches are Brock Lesnar vs Finn Balor for the Universal Title and on the blue brand we have Jinder Mahal vs AJ Styles for the WWE Title. The field for the rumble match itself is unreal too. To name a few we have Rollins, Reigns, Ambrose, Strowman, Miz, Bray Wyatt, Samoa Joe, Orton, Owens, Zayn, Rusev, Corbin, Nakamura, Roode and, of course, Dolph Ziggler. To absolutely everyone’s surprise, entrant #20 is Shawn Michaels! The crowd are going wild and most of the competitors are shocked to see HBK in there. Entrant #28 is Elias and he is met with a Sweet Chin Music the second he enters which sends him straight back over the top rope. #29 is Zack Ryder and he suffers the exact same fate, but this time at the hands of Dolph Ziggler. #30 is on his way and it’s… Roman Reigns. The Shield now have a full complement of fighters and the rest of the ring know they’re in for a fight. Sure enough, The Hounds of Justice go through everyone in their path. Out goes Roode, out goes Corbin, out goes Nakamura. The Shield throw out Shawn Michaels and they throw out Dolph Ziggler, who gave a good account of himself entering at #9. We’re down to The Shield, Miz, Orton and Strowman. They break off into two trios. Shield vs the Rest. Out of nowhere, Orton and Miz start clubbing the Monster and the Shield waste no time in helping eject the big man. Strowman, who is none too pleased grabs Reigns out by the head and pulls him to the floor, eliminating him. Miz hightails it to the corner and tries to hide in plain sight. Orton is left to the Hounds now. They start to double team him. Ambrose holds Orton in place for the Kingslayer knee strike but the Viper moves and Seth smashes Dean. Ambrose loses it and launches himself at Seth and they both tumble over the top to the outside. It’s just Randy Orton and The Miz left . Orton stalks the Miz like a predator. Suddenly Curtis Axel, appears on the apron to distract Orton. He attempts to strike him but Orton avoids it and kicks Axel in the mid-section. He has him in position for a draping DDT off the middle rope. Miz gingerly gets up and starts to stalk Orton. Randy instinctively let’s go of Axel and charges at a terrified Miz. Miz ducks the short arm clothesline and Orton goes to bounce off the opposite side where a waiting Bo Dallas pulls down the top rope and Orton topples over. Miz is going to WrestleMania. The next night on RAW Miz has a massive celebration and tells everyone how he did it all himself (he didn't) and how he's gonna make this the Most Must-See WrestleMania of all time.


    Tuesday rolls around and we're ready to go on Team Blue. Shane and Daniel Bryan are out in the ring and they're saying how disappointed they are that a RAW Superstar won the Royal Rumble match and will be headlining WrestleMania. They said that all is not lost though and that the Smackdown Stars that acquited themselves best in the Rumble match will have a chance to be entered into the Elimination Chamber for their chance to compete for the most prestigious title in WWE history at WrestleMania, the WWE Championship. Randy Orton is placed directly in as he was runner-up and let's face it, was screwed by The Miztourage. Jinder Mahal is owed a chance at redemption after losing his championship to AJ Styles. The best 8 SmackDown Live performers from the Royal Rumble match will go into a series of head-to-head qualifying matches to see who earns their spots. We have Sami Zayn vs Shinsuke Nakamura, Bobby Roode vs Baron Corbin, Kevin Owens vs Big E and Dolph Ziggler vs Kofi Kingston.


    Nakamura, Roode and Owens all come through their bouts and secure their places in the Chamber, along with Randy Orton and Jinder Mahal. Dolph Ziggler and Kofi are next up and using a roll with a handful of tights, DZ pulls off the win. Dolph gets on the microphone after the match and says that he's the man. He's the main event and he says that he's the one that's gonna steal the show and the headlines at WrestleMania. He reaches into his pants and takes out Ric Flair's HOF rings... ''Grab your opportunites, isn't that what you said Nature Boy?! Well look at me now, one week removed from your inspirational speech and I'm on my way to the big time... WOOOOO!''. He goes on, ''Hey Ric, why don't you cart your geriatric old ass down here so I can say thank you in person. C'mon Naitch, I really could do with another one of your rousing battle speeches before I go to the Elimination Chamber and on to WrestleMania. Awh WrestleMania, isn't that where it all ended for you oh so publically. What was it... ''I'm sorry, I love you''. Oh so emotional. You thought that was a showstealer? Really old man?! It was pathetic. From one washed up piece of garbage to another. Pathetic. At WrestleMania it's me that's gonna go steal the show an.....''

    giphy.gif


    The familiar screech of Shawn Michaels 'Sexy Boy' theme hits as Corey Graves loses it saying ''I thought the Royal Rumble was a once off but The Heartbreak Kid is here in Philadelphia!''. Ziggler is livid but Shawn doesn't care. ''First of all BOYYYYY, you can't steal the show when I'm the one that stops it. Secondly, enjoy your time with Ric's rings because this is the closest you'll ever get to having one in your possesion again. And third of all...'' BAM SWEET CHIN MUSIC straight on the money. Ziggler is out. Shawn takes the rings back, waves to the crowd and heads backstage to give them to Charlotte Flair who thanks Shawn and says she'll return them to her father. They hug and go their seperate ways.


    The next week sees Ziggler goading Charlotte. He's trying to get a reaction from her but she doesn't rise to it. She says her father is 10 times the man Dolph is and that's just a fact. She calls Ziggler wasted potential and says she's had more WrestleMania moments than he has in only a fraction of the time. This tips him over the edge and he stands over Charlotte menacingly. He's right up in her personal space and it's very uncomfortable viewing. He starts to run his fingers through her hair and says ''I can steal the show... but I can also steal Daddy's little girl.'' Charlotte slaps the taste out of his mouth.

    A week on and Dolph is facing off against Tye Dillinger. Ziggler is Woo-ing and strutting in a clear attempt to wind up the Flairs. He defeats Tye with a Zig-Zag but straight away puts him in a figure four leg lock. He has it locked in tight and Tye is tapping like crazy. The announcers are really selling this sadistic side of Ziggler.


    We're 6 days away from Elimination Chamber and we're at Monday Night Raw in Atlanta, Georgia where WWE are having a WCW appreciation night. Invited guests include Goldberg, Sting and The Four Horsemen. They're all massively over with the local crowd as this is Dubya See Dubya Country. Goldberg has a segment on Miz TV and ends up spearing the life out of Curtis Axel and Bo Dallas to everyone's delight. Sting is seeing hanging out with Finn Balor throughout the night and The Horsemen are reminsiscing about old feuds but also speaking about their daughters Charlotte, the present and Tessa Blanchard, the future. As the Horsemen backstage in the parking garage about to get into their limosine, Ric Flair gets an urgent call regarding his daughter. He tells the rest of them he's gotta go and as they head off he's attacked by a hooded figure. The man in the hoodie throws him into the garage door and begins to pummel him. We see that it's SmackDown Live's Dolph Ziggler! Ziggler has come to Raw to get to Flair. He bloodies the Hall of Famer up and makes his escape before anyone can get to him. There's dead air as the commentary team are too shocked to utter any words.
    ec2-1487014703-800.jpg


    It's Sunday and it's Elimination Chamber time. Randy Orton vs Jinder Mahal vs Bobby Roode vs Kevin Owens vs Shinsuke Nakamura vs Dolph Ziggler. It's a hard hitting affair as Nakamura Kinshasa's the life out of Jinder and eliminates him early. Roode, Orton, Nakamura and Owens are all in the mix while Ziggler is still in his pod. The three faces team up on KO and each hit them with their finishers. Glorious DDT, Kinshasa and and an RKO are enough to eliminate Owens. As he's pinned, the last pod containing Ziggler opens. He's in no rush to come out and stays in it. As the officials are helping Owens out of the Chamber a, camera man goes for a close up of Ziggler. He drops the camera and Superkicks Ziggler straight into the mush. The crowd are going nuts. He takes off his cap and reveals himself to be the Heartbreak Kid Shawn Michaels as the audience goes spare. Shawn tosses Ziggler to the wolves and one Glorious DDT later, Dolph's WrestleMania dream is done.


    The next night on RAW, Shawn Michaels opens the show. He says he is retired from wrestling and that he has no more matches left in him... but he does have a fight in him. He looks into the camera and simply says ''Dolph Ziggler. Shawn Michaels. WrestleMania. Show.... OFF''.


    On Smackdown Live, a furious Ziggler says Shawn has made the biggest mistake of not just his career but his life. He says what he did to Ric Flair is going to be nothing compared to what he does to Michaels. ''Shawn, You cost me my dream you son of a bitch. You may have retired Ric Flair... but at WrestleMania I'm going to end you...permanently. ''

    The Match



    WrestleMania-34-Logo.jpg


    From here I'd let them have a really hard hitting NO DQ match with a bit of blood which would look great in Ziggler's hair. Not only is Shawn Mr WrestleMania but he can damn well pull out amazing street fights on the big stages, look at his bouts with HHH at SummerSlam and again vs Mr Mc Mahon at Mania 22. I'd have the match start out really hard hitting with weapons and nasty tactics but evolve into a really great wrestling bout and have the commentators sell the fact that they both want to show the world why they are what they say they are, among the best athletes the WWE has ever had. Have Graves say that he thinks he can see a bit of respect coming through in their exchanges. I'd have plenty of near falls and false finishes. For the finish, I'd have Ric Flair come out and inadvertantly cause a distraction to Shawn which allows Dolph the win off a Zig Zag. Flair would be crying as usual and Shawn would be disappointed while Dolph looks intense. Flair comes in and hugs Shawn and says that he's sorry and he loves him, in a throwback to his own retirement match. They hug it out. They both look at Ziggler. He's still got an angry face on him. Flair offers him a handshake. He takes it. Shawn offers him a handshake but Ziggler refuses. HBK offers it again and Ziggler again declines. Flair shouts at Dolph ''Be a man!''. Finally Dolph shakes his hand and pulls him in and they embrace. Shawn raises his hand and puts him over as the winner. SMASH!!! Dolph nails Shawn with his own version of Sweet Chin Music. He looks down at him and sadistically says ''SHOW STOPPED''. Flair is in bits as Ziggler makes his way to the back as the crowd go mental at him.

    The Aftermath


    Not only do we have an interesting and dynamic programme spanning three PPVs but we also get a great Shawn Michaels Mania match which will draw on massively. From here Ziggler can set his sights on AJ Styles if he's still champion and that would be a match that would more than deliver on a PPV. The essential end result is that we essentially get a new re-born star with so much more worth than he's possibly ever had before. After that who knows.....

    dolph_ziggler__heel__wwe_champion_2017_by_thephenomenalseth-dava5r4.png


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 22,672 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bounty Hunter


    First off, fair play dude that was a good read.

    Secondly - here is the part about ATH that always makes me feel like a d!ck but I guess I gotta try to pick apart your post now



    Dolph Ziggler.... really?

    I considered Dolph for a moment then thought god no, nobody wants that.

    It is a few years too late for Ziggler, the time for the WWE to strike with him was the Survivor Series a few years ago you highlighted but since then his star has dropped more and more each year to the point where most people have only one word to describe a Ziggler feud in recent times... "Meh"

    Since his feud with the Miz (in which the Miz was the clear star) I can only remember 3 Ziggler feuds, those with Baron Corbin, Bobby Roode and Shinsuke Nakamura and the reaction I remember most people giving those feuds was " god won't they just let this feud die already".

    Okay okay I'll not go mad about choosing Ziggler until I see what you do with regards bringing back HBK and their feud. Oh! HBK comes back at the Rumble for.... no reason?

    ok you might get a nice unexpected pop but argueably the greatest of all time and a guy who has always said he would never return from his retirement just randomly makes a rumble appearance without anything leading to this storyline wise? Surely that is a lost opportunity to justify your mania match / feud and HBKs involvement in it a la how I had AJ essentially force him out of retirement but I guess you will find some other way to build Ziggler up for their eventual confrontation


    NOPE, Ziggler looks like a chump so far, runs from the dregs of SD after attacking an old man, beats Kofi Kingston by grabbing the tights, then gets put in his place by HBK before having the taste slapped from his mouth by Charlotte the next week... is this supposed to be building up Ziggler (who many don't think much of atm) for his biggest match ever?

    This Ziggler storyline seems to be all about Flair not HBK. I get the idea behind it but just feel I got AJ to drag HBK out of retirement while HBK could have easily been played by someone else in your story. The non retired HHH for example. Instead HBK seems to go out of his way to once again make Ziggler look less than at elimination chamber in your story and even if you put Ziggler over at mania the fans will not be going into the bout with any expectations re Dolph

    Speaking of the bout at Mania... Why does HBK ask for it? hasn't he already gotten retribution for Flair? hasn't he already screwed Ziggler out of what was motivating his current heel run? Just like HBK returning at the Rumble im really not sure what is motivating his return to the ring here.

    Plus the question asks us to book one last feud for Shawn at mania, now I don't know about any other fans but I would be a bit p*ssed if HBK did come out of retirement for one last Mania moment only for it to be a screwy unclean finish. I mean if you are going to put Ziggler over, especially after how weak he looked in the build up, why not at least let him look strong in the match and get a clean win?


    I really don't see how this Ziggler feud especially booked in this way would be better than my HBK/AJ feud but I guess now is your chance to let me know


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    I find it interesting that you say ''Dolph Ziggler, really...bit late for him isn't it?'' and then go on to mention The Miz in the very same breath. Only a couple of years ago, Miz was the very definition of meh. He was trading wins with Wade Barrett on the WrestleMania Pre-show and had that really odd face turn. Here was a former World Champion who's career was in stall mode and never looked like getting out of second gear. Basically he was channel changing material and nobody really cared for him. Sound familiar? However, with the right booking, focus on a star's ability and presentation, a talented superstar can come back from limbo and have an absolute career renaissance -See Mike Mizanin.


    Another problem you had with my scenario was the insertion of Shawn Michaels into the Royal Rumble. First of all, you've doe the exact same thing for his in ring return!!! Exact same. Anyway, I digress because the Rumble is one of those things were booking and storylines aren't necessary for a good debut/return/suprise. Anyone can show up and sometimes they do, even your suggested HBK opponent AJ Styles debuted at the Royal Rumble!


    Let's see what other issues you have with the programme:
    NOPE, Ziggler looks like a chump so far, runs from the dregs of SD after attacking an old man, beats Kofi Kingston by grabbing the tights, then gets put in his place by HBK before having the taste slapped from his mouth by Charlotte the next week... is this supposed to be building up Ziggler (who many don't think much of atm) for his biggest match ever?
    Well let's see, he beat Kofi Kingston by grabbing the tights to take his spot in the Elimination Chamber, thereby depriving Kofi of an appearance in the structure which fans would love to see. Kofi is phenomenal in those type of matches. Fans and even fellow New Day members have said they'd love Kingston to win the big one. DZ costing him (and the fans) his spot in such a cheap way would put heat on him. The upsides are 1) Ziggler and Kofi can have a mini feud between now and Mania, which always delivers. 2) Kofi can slot back in with his New Day crew and move on 3) Ziggler in the Chamber is a great fit. The Charlotte scene is another way to show the viewer that Dolph is willing to stoop to any levels to get his name out there and seize opportunties. The fact it's Charlotte works because of his ongoing antagonising of Ric Flair. Nobody has ever disrespected her like that, she's an athlete, not a piece of meat and we all know Flair is very protective of her. It makes sense.


    What else did you say:
    This Ziggler storyline seems to be all about Flair not HBK. I get the idea behind it but just feel I got AJ to drag HBK out of retirement while HBK could have easily been played by someone else in your story. The non retired HHH for example. Instead HBK seems to go out of his way to once again make Ziggler look less than at elimination chamber in your story and even if you put Ziggler over at mania the fans will not be going into the bout with any expectations re Dolph
    Speaking of the bout at Mania... Why does HBK ask for it? hasn't he already gotten retribution for Flair? hasn't he already screwed Ziggler out of what was motivating his current heel run?
    First of all, HHH would be a no go. Hunter is always heel in these mega matches and that's how it should be. He's the tyrannical monster that held Daniel Bryan down, that beat Sting. The reason for HBK is that Michaels adores Flair. This is no secret. They had probably the most emotional match in history at WrestleMania 24 and even behind the scenes it was a massive deal to both men, which WWE even recognises. They gifted each other Rolex watches with personal inscriptions on them to mark the occasion.

    Flair-Michaels-HOF-2.jpg


    Flair went into the HOF the night before this and this is intrinsically linked to the match they had too, hence the Hall of Fame rings being disresepected getting Shawn's back up. I would have Ziggler destroy/steal Flair's personalised Rolex for maximum effect too. That would insure that the Superkick in the Chamber doesn't even come close to getting retribution for the dastardly acts of the rings, the assaults, the rolex and the Charlotte situation. There's loads there and that's why Shawn wants to make him pay. It's quite believable that Shawn would come back to defend his mentor's legacy, one which he put a beautiful stamp on himself at Mania. I find it a lot more legitimate than him coming back because he's punked out by a jealous AJ Styles.


    Lastly, you add
    I would be a bit p*ssed if HBK did come out of retirement for one last Mania moment only for it to be a screwy unclean finish. I mean if you are going to put Ziggler over, why not at least let him look strong in the match and get a clean win?
    You're p*ssed off? That's good! The story is doing what I want it to do. Ziggler is a heel. He doesn't need the clean win. However, you'll notice that Dolph didn't cause the screwy finish, Flair did. Ziggler merely took his opportunity which is a delightful bookend to the 'opportunity' promo he had with Ric Flair to kick this whole thing off. How many times have seen competitors hugging it out after a big Mania match. The heel shows grudging resepect. It's been done. No need for a feel good moment here, we can have that later on in a World Title match perhaps. Besides, Ziggler still gets over as a massive c*nt for ruining a potentially beautiful 'I love you/I respect you moment'. He moves on and Shawn does what he does best, has a barnstormer at WrestleMania despite not picking up the win. Fun fact , despite being Mr. WrestleMania Shawn has a record of 6-11. He's lost nearly twice as many as he's won. Of his 17 matches, only four have been in the main event. In other words, Michaels seamlessly fits in here without hurting anyone, he's well able to pull it off.


    You picked AJ Styles and that's a great choice for a WrestleMania match, you'll get no complaints from me there. However, the feud isn't really a go-er for me. Firstly, AJ is one of the most beloved talents on the entire roster. The fans want to love him. Even when he was heel with Gallows and Anderson, the fans loved him. After that he was wildly cheered against Shane Mc Mahon and John Cena, to the point where the audience pretty much highjacked the show with their incessant chants of ''AJ Styles'' clap clap clap clap clap. The powers that be have gone all in on the Phenomenal One and I think he's gonna be the main man on SmackDown for the foreseeable future.


    A programme with Shawn Michaels isn't gonna be the main event of WrestleMania in 2018. I'm sorry, but it's not. You talk about giving the rub to someone but Styles is above needing the rub at this point. Ziggler though, he sure could use it. Styles has had matches with Chris Jericho and Shane McMahon at WrestleMania thus far, it's time to put him in a World Title match on the Grandest Stage of Them All and your feud wouldn't do that for him.


    Your end game doesn't even have a victor. You said it doesn't matter who wins. That to me is a massive oversight in this question. You said the match exists to get AJ over. AJ is already over, ridiculously so. He's probably the most over performer on SmackDown, if not the entire WWE.
    For a one off Mania match between AJ Styles and Shawn Michaels, I like your idea. For a feud with no given winner or pay-off... in the words of AJ's own theme song nah I don't want none.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,753 ✭✭✭✭beakerjoe


    POLL ADDED - 1 rebuttal left for each player.


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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 22,672 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bounty Hunter


    First off, it's been fun Omack but her I go with my last rebuttal before you get the last word.
    Omackeral wrote: »

    Another problem you had with my scenario was the insertion of Shawn Michaels into the Royal Rumble. First of all, you've doe the exact same thing for his in ring return!!! Exact same.

    There is a massive and I mean massive difference between my booking of HBK's rumble appearance and yours.

    Yours: Prior to the Rumble the only mention of Michaels during your build is him being one of the guys appearing on the Raw anniversary special. Therefore HBK is given absolutely no storyline reason or motivation for suddenly lacing up his boots and entering himself into a match despite having retired and seemingly being the one guy who was adamant that he would stay retired.

    Mine: HBK is actively involved in the show and in a storyline which involves his future opponent. A man(in AJ) that has been casting aspersions on Michaels mere involvement in his title match (as the ref) and the show in general suggesting he is trying to steal the spotlight whilst building up peoples hopes despite having no intention of actually wrestling again. HBK is then given storyline motivation for his involvement at the Rumble when AJ not only beats him down and gives him a Styles Clash after he perceives him as having cost him the match but also spends the following weeks blaming HBK for those actions which no doubt would make him want to get his hands on Michaels even more.

    In short mine gave Michaels storyline motivation to not only get involved wrestling in his first match since retiring but this motivation also fed into the overarching storyline... While in yours he just randomly decided to un retire himself in the rumble match.


    The upsides are 1) Ziggler and Kofi can have a mini feud between now and Mania, which always delivers.

    I like Kofi but I really don't think anyone would care in the slightest about a Kofi vs Ziggler feud and this would hardly be something I would be recommending if you are trying to build Ziggler up prior to a huge Mania storyline.
    you add

    You're p*ssed off? That's good! The story is doing what I want it to do.

    I wasn't annoyed at that dang #HeelZiggler, I was annoyed at the booking. You bring back one of the biggest legends ever in pro wrestling for one last feud/match and you have it end like that, What a waste. If your doing all this to make Ziggler a star it is really odd that you don't let him beat HBK clean.

    The fact that he did not actually cause the screwy finish as you said does not make this better and for me it actually makes it worse. Now Zigglers big Mania moment is a screwy finish win where he does not get put over strong nor is he the cause of the win. He will also never get the chance to rectify anyo of this as this was HBKs one last hurrah (if you could call it that) and Flair is never wrestling in the WWE again either.

    I'm sorry, but it's not. You talk about giving the rub to someone but Styles is above needing the rub at this point.

    Styles may not 100% need it but he deserves it. Ziggler does not! I don't dislike Dolph but he has done nothing in years to deserve such a match and the fact that you actually talk up AJ so much is why he vs HBK works so well. It would be billed as THe Best Wrestler in the world today (AJ) vs Argueably The Best Wrestler Ever.

    Fun fact , despite being Mr. WrestleMania Shawn has a record of 6-11.

    Fun Fact: According to HBK himself, Vince has only ever asked him once if he wanted to come back to Wrestle and that was in relation to facing AJ Styles after all the rumors at last years Alamo Dome Rumble when they (at that point) didn't have a Mania opponent lined up for Styles

    Your end game doesn't even have a victor. You said it doesn't matter who wins.

    Not true, I said that booked the way I had either man could be booked to lose but still come out looking strong (meanwhile HBK would def come out of your feud looking worse than how he entered it while you didn't even strap the full rocket you could have on Dolph) but that given that it was a full time performer and such a great one going up against HBK that he would be happy to go out on his back after putting on a stellar match and putting AJ over big time.




    Simply put there are a number of glaring problems with your angle

    HBK has no motivation or storyline reason to come out of retirement at the Rumble in your angle.

    You fail to build up Ziggler to look even nearly on his level in the build.

    Ziggler gets his comeuppance not once but twice at the hands of HBK in the build before challenging Ziggler to the match, meaning he had no motivation to do so having already gotten Ziggler back.

    After bringing back one of the biggest legends of all time for a feud with Dolph you don't put Dolph over strong. As much as I don't think the feud is the right one you could have really strapped a Rocket to Ziggler here but nope!


    in no way or form is that a better option than this

    Vote for the better match, vote for the better feud, vote for BH
    :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    It's been a good tussle, fair play. I'm just gonna go point for point with your last post here because I feel you've missed plenty of relevant points.
    There is a massive and I mean massive difference between my booking of HBK's rumble appearance and yours.
    Firstly, I think people could argue that we fluffed it a bit having HBK's comeback match being in a 30 man match, he's the Main Event and Showstopper, why share the lime light with 29 other dudes? Thing is, my appearance was made to look like a 'one and done' with the idea that it would pop the crowd and have their interests peaked around the mid way point of the match. Not a promoted appearance as such, but Shawn could teasingly allude to it on the aforementioned 25th Anniversary which takes place 6 days prior. Get the rumour mill going. Rumble is renowned for surprise entrances, this would be a great moment. Anyway, the Rumble appearance isn't the massive catalyst, it's to feed the idea that Shawn might not just be a one night shot and to show that he can still go.

    The subsequent personal and emotional issues are the focus of my whole feud.


    I like Kofi but I really don't think anyone would care in the slightest about a Kofi vs Ziggler feud and this would hardly be something I would be recommending if you are trying to build Ziggler up prior to a huge Mania storyline.
    That's why I called it a mini-feud. It's a stop gap before WrestleMania, it's happened plenty of times. Think John Cena vs Kane in the Embrace the Hate/Rise Above Hate storyline. Think Batista vs Alberto Del Rio on the road to Wrestlemania 30. Think Dean Ambrose vs Triple H at Roadblock.


    Your next argument had me scratching my head;
    I wasn't annoyed at that dang #HeelZiggler, I was annoyed at the booking. You bring back one of the biggest legends ever in pro wrestling for one last feud/match and you have it end like that, What a waste. If your doing all this to make Ziggler a star it is really odd that you don't let him beat HBK clean.
    The fact that he did not actually cause the screwy finish as you said does not make this better and for me it actually makes it worse. Now Zigglers big Mania moment is a screwy finish win where he does not get put over strong nor is he the cause of the win.
    Heels can and often do go over in screwy finishes! Austin at the end of Mania X7, although the aftermath was weird, was one of the best Mania endings ever. Dolph is going over mega strong because he gets the win and the heel heat that he can carry into the next tv slot. Imagine the smugness. He can claim it's clean, and technically he didn't do anything wrong himself, and to me that's the best heel, the justified one. The WrestleMania end package will show him with his arm raised while Shawn's on the canvas and Ric is crying, it's a great visual.
    He will also never get the chance to rectify any of this as this was HBKs one last hurrah (if you could call it that) and Flair is never wrestling in the WWE again either.
    Time honored tradition of putting someone younger over if you're hanging them up for good. It's been done umpteen times and it makes sense. Shawn has nothing to lose here at all, as previously said. He's already 6-11 at WrestleMania and yet that doesn't matter a jot. Nobody rememebers WrestleMania records outside of the streak and besides, Shawn's legacy is already safe as houses. A non issue. Meanwhile, Dolph can claim he beat Mr WrestleMania all on his own (technically true) at WrestleMania and can get heel heat out of that much like Chris Jericho got mileage out beating Stone Cold and The Rock in the same night. It's all logical.


    Styles may not 100% need it but he deserves it. Ziggler does not! I don't dislike Dolph but he has done nothing in years to deserve such a match and the fact that you actually talk up AJ so much is why he vs HBK works so well. It would be billed as THe Best Wrestler in the world today (AJ) vs Argueably The Best Wrestler Ever.
    The bolded part makes very little sense. How can you deserve something you don't need. AJ Styles is already, for my money, the most over guy in the entire WWE. He doesn't need any rub at all. The chap is a merch machine and a bonifide draw already.


    Simply put there are a number of glaring problems with your angle
    There may be one or two oversights in mine but glaring? I don't agree. However there's a massive problem in yours that I've already addressed and it's that AJ Styles isn't nor won't be heel. Nobody wants to see that. He's beloved as a babyface, hell he was so beloved as a heel that they had to turn him. There's no way he's going back. Making HBK the baddie is probably more believable to be honest, like they did with Hogan, like they've done with him screwing Daniel Bryan. Styles is just too over right now and the crowd won't sh*t on him no matter what.

    in no way or form is that a better option than this
    Ending on a Youtube video is a really lazy way of finishing off a debate. You're getting someone else to wrap up your argument for you. I'm gonna finish by listing my points myself.

    - The initial build with Ric Flair makes sense, it stems from an anniversary show appearance from Naitch and the introduction of a bitter Dolph Ziggler kicks off a fresh angle. The sleazy bit with Charlotte adds heat.

    - Shawn and Flair had the most emotional match in Mania history, tying HBK in here makes sense so much and bookends their history very well, especially when incorporating the Hall of Fame rings and maybe the personalised Rolex watches.

    - While I agree AJ Styles is a phenomenal wrestler, Ziggler can damn well go in the squared circle himself. He's often touted as one of the best in-ring competitors on the roster. He'd absolutely have magic with HBK, he already parodies his Sweet Chin Music, another issue they can touch on. Styles would be better served getting a much deserved Mania Title match.

    - My feud has an ultimate pay-off in that, not only it produces a stellar match, but it gives a rub to a talented wrestler who needs it. Having a pushed and refreshed Dolph would be like having a new signing.


    Lads, if this question asked simply ''who'd have the better match at WrestleMania'', it would be a whole different question. However, it asks us to book a full feud from start to finish with a pay off at the end. I feel I've done that and given it an entertaining beginning, middle and end with an eye to future possibilities.


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