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Observation of GAA Vs Soccer, management

  • 30-10-2017 6:14pm
    #1
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 10,934 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Stoner


    I was looking at some of the new management set ups in hurling and football.
    Particularly with football having a new manager is often seen as a weakness.

    Ok things can go stale and the Kerry's last double counters this as it was with a new manager, but the initial boost that soccer managers get is seldom seen in GAA management.
    You'd see guys talking about other teams talking about the opposition being further down the road in their process. JMcG in 2011 for example when Dublin beat Donegal he spoke about Dublin being at their process a year longer, he went on and won it the next year.

    Yet the soccer guys often get a boost when they take over initially, it often wears off some managers had a reputation for getting that , Keegan, Reid , Venables Big Sam etc

    It's got nothing to do with the amount of games imo as the soccer lads get the boost immediately.

    I think soccer squads might have talented lads who might not be playing and step it up to stick it too the old boss.

    However there must be more too it than that.

    Donegal, not much expected this year, new manager
    Kildare, a lot expected of them, they've been at their process for longer now.

    Same with Mayo last year.


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 13,307 ✭✭✭✭ Fr Tod Umptious


    I think you are trying to compare apples and oranges.

    The soccer teams are usually playing regular games week after week so if they are doing badly and change manager there is usually a bounce, players need to impress the new boss.

    With GAA the manager usually comes in off season and spends their time building the team to their plan, which could be a multi year plan given the players available to them straight away and the ones that are coming in from underage.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 10,934 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Stoner


    The soccer teams are usually playing regular games week after week so if they are doing badly and change manager there is usually a bounce, players need to impress the new boss.

    I made that comparison. There isn't a bunch of GAA players good enough but just not getting on with the manager, and the manager can't buy a player either.

    It's still seldom that a GAA manager comes in and shakes things up with success.

    Davy did it at Wexford. O'Dwyer at Wicklow.
    But it's not a long list is it?


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,282 ✭✭✭✭ bucketybuck


    How many GAA bosses get sacked mid season? How many GAA players get a chance to display a new boss bounce? They never get a new boss mid season to have a bounce for.

    When a GAA player gets a new boss they usually have a couple of months slogging through a field before even thinking about games, thats plenty to remove any kneejerk reactions to their new manager.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 10,934 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Stoner


    How many GAA bosses get sacked mid season? How many GAA players get a chance to display a new boss bounce? They never get a new boss mid season to have a bounce for.

    It doesn't have to be midseason. Just a new manager.


  • Registered Users Posts: 536 Condenser


    The most famous bounce would have been Michael Bond with the offaly Hurlers following Babs sheep in a heap comment. Probably more to do with shutting Babs gob though.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,282 ✭✭✭✭ bucketybuck


    Stoner wrote: »
    It doesn't have to be midseason. Just a new manager.

    You are talking about the new manager bounce, unless you have a different definition of that to everybody else then yes it does have to be during the playing season. The "bounce" gets reflected in immediate results, how can it be measured if there are no immediate games?


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 10,934 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Stoner


    You are talking about the new manager bounce, unless you have a different definition of that to everybody else then yes it does have to be during the playing season. The "bounce" gets reflected in immediate results, how can it be measured if there are no immediate games?

    I never said "bounce" you are quoting a different poster.
    You are the one talking about being sacked midseason not me.

    I said a new manager, I mentioned low expectations for a new manager until he gets time for his process to develop.

    The examples O'Dwyer, Davy I gave were not midseason changes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,282 ✭✭✭✭ bucketybuck


    Stoner wrote: »
    I never said "bounce" you are quoting a different poster.
    You are the one talking about being sacked midseason not me.

    Your words:
    Stoner wrote: »
    but the initial boost that soccer managers get
    Stoner wrote: »
    as the soccer lads get the boost immediately.

    What boost are you talking about? And how can you get an immediate boost if there are no games for months?


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 10,934 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Stoner


    What boost are you talking about? And how can you get an immediate boost if there are no games for months?


    I gave examples of Davy and O'Dwyer both of whom had an impact straight away, these were examples of the boost I was talking about.

    I gave examples of the new Donegal manager (Bonner) and nothing being expected of him this year

    Possibly you interpreted my posts to being the equivalent of a premier league manager getting sacked mid season and replaced by some sort of relegation fire fighter.


    The three examples I referenced were regular GAA manager changes, not mid season sacking as you not me suggested. You quoted Fr Tods "bounce" at attributed it to me, as you correctly quoted on your second attempted I said a boost and I gave auctual examples and exceptions, again all off season changes.

    There are not many who have a significant impact like Davy at wexford this year or indeed Waterford before that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,797 ✭✭✭✭ PARlance


    I think I might have an answer but I'm not sure of the question!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,282 ✭✭✭✭ bucketybuck


    So what is your point then? Some managers come in and have successful starts, others take longer to achieve their aims, while others never achieve any success. Happens in soccer and happens in the GAA, so what is the difference that you are talking about in your thread title?

    Because if you think its rare for GAA managers to come in and make an immediate impact you are way, way of the mark. Even forgetting the big boys like Fitzmaurice, Gavin, Harte, McGuiness, or Kernan who all quickly won all-ireland titles after being appointed, there is also a legion of managers like Pete McGrath at Fermanagh who did remarkably well with the lesser resources at his disposal.

    You talked about the immediate impact that soccer managers have but apparently this "new manager boost" that you meant is not the "new manager bounce" that has been common parlance for years, so what exactly is the point you are trying make/unearth?


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 10,934 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Stoner


    It was an observation PARlance not a question.

    As per the first post Rochford was cut a little slack last year as it was his first year in management. He won't be next year

    Mayo is a perfect example, at the table for 5 years with the same players and 3 management teams.
    Hitting the ground running seems very difficult for GAA managers.

    The Mayo example is against the norm where the 2015 set up were only given a year. It is imo accepted that the first term is a settling in period.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,797 ✭✭✭✭ PARlance


    Stoner wrote: »
    It was an observation PARlance not a question.

    As per the first post Rochford was cut a little slack last year as it was his first year in management. He won't be next year

    Mayo is a perfect example, at the table for 5 years with the same players and 3 management teams.
    Hitting the ground running seems very difficult for GAA managers.

    The Mayo example is against the norm where the 2015 set up were only given a year. It is imo accepted that the first term is a settling in period.

    Your tone kind of suggests that giving GAA managers a year is a luxury for them. To me, allowing time to implement change shouldn't be seen as a luxury that's afforded, it's completely logical. Much of the chopping and changing in the Premiership is madness if you ask me.

    The 2015 Mayo situation was an anomaly because it was a rare enough ocassion when players (or some players) & management obviously weren't working as a unit.

    I'm not sure Rochford falls into the category of being "cut some slack" in his first year. Ok, there was no provincial but I think most in the County would agree that he got us the closer to the holy grail than any of his predecessors. He also made an immediate change to our style of play too, with the implementation of a sweeper.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 10,934 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Stoner


    It is madness. But they have managers that can come in and win first time around
    And it's not that Rochford was cut slack that's the norm, it's that the boys before him were not. I'm not taking about Mayo anyway.

    Say O'Connor at Kerry, he took over the current champions, and Gavin got a team that won it the year before. They are recent examples of winning in the first year but they both had fantastic bases.

    The great (and I mean that ) McGuinnness needed more than a year and he had the players in place.

    Davy Fitz got Waterford to an AI final in hurling in his first year, with Wexford he beat Kilkenny for the first time in years, at Clare he got them promoted in the first year but the ai win came in the second year, he's a guy with that extra bit about him, like him or not.

    I just think it's strange they there are not more managers that came in and win an AI in their first year.
    There are so few games in the championship you'd imagine a honeymoon period could last a season.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,282 ✭✭✭✭ bucketybuck


    Stoner wrote: »
    I just think it's strange they there are not more managers that came in and win an AI in their first year.

    The vast majority of all-Ireland winning managers since 2001 fall into two categories: managers winning it in their 1st/2nd year, or incumbent managers winning it for a 2nd/3rd/4th time.

    Harte, Gavin and O'Connor all won it in year one and they account for winning 10 of the 16 titles in the years I counted. Kernan and O'Shea also won it year one, Fitzmaurice and McGuiness year two, Counihan and Gilroy year 3.

    Interestingly the losing managers also tend to be early in their terms, Rochford, McCartan and Moran all in year 1, Horan, Rochford, Counihan, O'Shea, Kernan and O'Connor in year 2.

    I stopped at 2001 for no particular reason, I could go back further but I doubt it would change much, as I can see it the vast majority of GAA managers either find success quickly or they don't find it at all. The only man in 16 years to reach an all-ireland final after being with his team for more than 3 years was Billy Morgan who was in year 4, and he was finished after losing that final.

    You'll probably just dismiss this because I included year 2 as early success but I'm sorry, the question should not be "why don't more managers win titles in their first year", it should be "why don't managers that have been given 3/4+ years with their counties ever bring them on to glory".


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,797 ✭✭✭✭ PARlance


    Stoner wrote: »
    It is madness. But they have managers that can come in and win first time around
    And it's not that Rochford was cut slack that's the norm, it's that the boys before him were not. I'm not taking about Mayo anyway.

    Say O'Connor at Kerry, he took over the current champions, and Gavin got a team that won it the year before. They are recent examples of winning in the first year but they both had fantastic bases.

    The great (and I mean that ) McGuinnness needed more than a year and he had the players in place.

    Davy Fitz got Waterford to an AI final in hurling in his first year, with Wexford he beat Kilkenny for the first time in years, at Clare he got them promoted in the first year but the ai win came in the second year, he's a guy with that extra bit about him, like him or not.

    I just think it's strange they there are not more managers that came in and win an AI in their first year.
    There are so few games in the championship you'd imagine a honeymoon period could last a season.

    I think you're overestimating the positive impact new managers have in the English Premier League. Only 5 first time managers have won the Premiership (Mourinho, Ancelotti, Conte, Pellegrini, Ranieri) in it's 26 years. That's out of a total of only 9 managers that have won it so it is a high % of that in fairness.

    If trying to draw comparisons you might say Leicester winning was akin to Carlow winning the AI so a massive achievement for Ranieri. But (the 3)Chelsea and City wins might be compared to Dublin and Kerry. Not in historic terms but in terms of having the players, set-ups (finanical doping, population :) ) etc there to make a win a very real possibility, an expectancy even.

    But as someone stated earlier, I think it is a case of apples and oranges. These "new managers" above are not new managers, all had distinguished managerial records with other clubs before their Prem wins. A new County Manager is more often than not, a new manager at that level... Maybe there's something there to the Davy, Micko angle in terms of experience? A brand new manager in the Prem is a real rarity.

    You referenced the next point in your OP, it's regarding PL players performance. I think 99.9% of GAA players are going out giving it their all in every game. I couldn't say the same about a PL player... some lad from Paris didn't grow up dreaming of playing for Brighton. Paris is no Parish. This gives Prem managers greater scope to improve teams immediately imo.

    They also have full access to players full time, almost 7 days a week. This would help them change things around sooner.

    Rather than looking at it from your angle of the few games making a honeymoon period possible, I would look at it as there are only ever a few teams in real contention for an AI in any given year, 3-4 max. A new managers with a fresh approach coming to a set-up (with all the qualities there already) might just be a marriage made in heaven from day 1.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 10,934 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Stoner


    PARlance wrote:
    Rather than looking at it from your angle of the few games making a honeymoon period possible, I would look at it as there are only ever a few teams in real contention for an AI in any given year, 3-4 max. A new managers with a fresh approach coming to a set-up (with all the qualities there already) might just be a marriage made in heaven from day 1.


    That's true but there are provincial titles, and Wexfords big improvement. Waterford getting to a final.
    O'Dwyer with Kildare and Wicklow, Padi with westmeath.
    Again the premiere league was a boost reference getting into Europe etc it doesn't have to be a win. Again the examples I gave, Reid, Venables Big Sam didn't go on an win it. They just did reasonably well. I guess in Mayo's case winning the AI isn't he only way to measure an improvement now, but for for a team like Donegal beating Tyrone would do the trick


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,724 ✭✭✭ nice_guy80


    gaa players don't train twice a day (unless you're dublin)
    they don't rely on impressing their manager for their living (getting new contract)
    gaa managers cannot buy in new players to bolster a squad (unless you're kildare)


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 10,934 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Stoner


    nice_guy80 wrote:
    gaa players don't train twice a day (unless you're dublin) they don't rely on impressing their manager for their living (getting new contract) gaa managers cannot buy in new players to bolster a squad (unless you're kildare)

    So largely playing for your team and county solves a lot motivation problems the professional managers face.

    It's a good point alright it allows the guys the down to tactical changes straight away.
    I guess there's the odd clear out, Horan, McGuiness and Gavin got rid players they didn't fancy.

    But you so hear about managers losing the players confidence though like with the Dublin Hurlers and the Donegal footballers


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