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Why cant we just do all the no brainer infrastructure projects

  • 27-10-2017 5:59pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,077 ✭✭✭ veryangryman


    I know money fiscal rules etc...

    But surely the major luas, m20, metro north, bottleneck bypasses like adare, n4 gap, widening projects are guaranteed profit earners.

    I feel like this fiscal prudency is costing us alot more than these projects would. Could the gov not pitch the guaranteed success of these projects to Europe and then plough on with them rather than such piecemeal bull


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,205 ✭✭✭ MayoSalmon


    Could the gov not pitch the guaranteed success of these projects to Europe and then plough on with them rather than such piecemeal bull


    Pitch like Dragons Den or something? They took ownership or this country no less than 4 years ago I would rather we don't see them again for another 100


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭ LeinsterDub


    Because ballybeirtduine needs a hospital and a post office and a floodlit gaa pitch and it's own garda station and a bypass


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,077 ✭✭✭ veryangryman


    Because ballybeirtduine needs a hospital and a post office and a floodlit gaa pitch and it's own garda station and a bypass

    And such a pitch would be told where to go.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,376 padser


    I know money fiscal rules etc...

    Really?


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,226 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    I know money fiscal rules etc...

    But surely the major luas, m20, metro north, bottleneck bypasses like adare, n4 gap, widening projects are guaranteed profit earners.

    I feel like this fiscal prudency is costing us alot more than these projects would. Could the gov not pitch the guaranteed success of these projects to Europe and then plough on with them rather than such piecemeal bull

    Fiscal rules do not explain:

    * Why the €12-15m to get the M20 to planning permission stage has not been allocated in the last few years because "its not on the Capital plan", but money was found in the quiet to progress Enda's N5 upgrade and Jimmy Deenihan's Listowel bypass

    * Why Metro North, with planning permission, is being redesigned delaying it til 2027, when the economic cost of congestion is rising and Dublin Airport is about to pass 30 million passengers, to save a few bob which is being spent on a worthless BRT stopgap measure. The mind boggles at this ****.

    * Why DART Underground requires another tunnel redesign

    * Why useless DART Expansion to Balbriggan is prioritised over incredibly beneficial DART to Maynooth

    Shane Ross has turned from being a useless **** to a total and utter liability to this country. The bus fetish and the lack of any awareness of the transport issues in this country is incredible. His "do nothing" approach to Bus Eireann's strike should not be commended because this is his attitude to everything.

    But sure isn't it great, Luas BXD is opening in a few weeks, the M17/M18 has opened etc and he was there for all the openings. Of course he played no part in any of them and if he were in power at the time would likely have deferred them in favour of "creative and imaginative solutions".

    Road deaths are down 35 year on year as of today October 27. He has stayed very quiet on his militant approach to speeding and people having 2 pints recently.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭ sdanseo


    Page 6 of this document indicates why we can't have nice things. Nearly two thirds of our total expenditure is on the combination of Social Protection and Health.

    http://budget.gov.ie/Budgets/2018/Documents/Expenditure%20Report%202018%20(Parts%20I-III).pdf


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,663 ✭✭✭✭ Zebra3


    sdanseo wrote: »
    Page 6 of this document indicates why we can't have nice things. Nearly two thirds of our total expenditure is on the combination of Social Protection and Health.

    http://budget.gov.ie/Budgets/2018/Documents/Expenditure%20Report%202018%20(Parts%20I-III).pdf

    Boo hoo.

    Huge problem is the money being burnt on private banking debt.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,168 ✭✭✭ roadmaster


    A huge problem is people see x billion for a metro etc and say it's to expensive and we can't afford it while they don't look at the bigger picture that things like the metro will still be here in some shape or form in 100 years


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭ LeinsterDub


    sdanseo wrote: »
    Page 6 of this document indicates why we can't have nice things. Nearly two thirds of our total expenditure is on the combination of Social Protection and Health.

    http://budget.gov.ie/Budgets/2018/Documents/Expenditure%20Report%202018%20(Parts%20I-III).pdf
    So you advocing cutting services from the elderly and sick?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,121 ✭✭✭ ClovenHoof


    You lost me at 'profit' - you answered your own question right there.

    Until the pathologically stagnant and instutionalised Irish political, academic and media establishment in Ireland figure out that Public Transport is not designed to generate a profit things will never change. Nothing short of a Trump/Brexit type paradigm shift within the Irish body politic will change this deeply entrenced mentality.

    and I do not mean building Ballymagash Light Rail. I am talking about building metros and more light rail in Dublin. Deliver the public trasport to where the majority of the public is.


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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,226 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    So you advocing cutting services from the elderly and sick?

    More effective use of the money would be a good start.

    How many people are on trolleys and waiting lists? Is that indicative of efficient money use?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭ PMBC


    Whether imposed by EU or not, there is a limit to the amount of money we can borrow. Also there is a construction capacity issue. Otherwise construction costs become inflated. Therefore they are prioritized ....to an extent. Until political interference starts to re-prioritise.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,168 ✭✭✭ roadmaster


    PMBC wrote: »
    Whether imposed by EU or not, there is a limit to the amount of money we can borrow. Also there is a construction capacity issue. Otherwise construction costs become inflated. Therefore they are prioritized ....to an extent. Until political interference starts to re-prioritise.

    When it comes to construction capacity in regards to civils I don't thing that's a issue as all the big projects are finishing shortly and there does not appear to be new ones starting soon


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,226 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    roadmaster wrote: »
    When it comes to construction capacity in regards to civils I don't thing that's a issue as all the big projects are finishing shortly and there does not appear to be new ones starting soon

    There's going to be a steady 3 big projects ongoing over the next few years

    M17/M18 -> M7 widening
    N25 New Ross -> Dunkettle
    M11 Enniscorthy -> Macroom

    There is also the N4/N5 schemes starting around 2019 (N4) and 2021 (N5)

    Then after that the Ringaskiddy and Foynes motorways and in 2021 the Galway bypass and Metro North


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,364 ✭✭✭✭ Del.Monte


    marno21 wrote: »
    There's going to be a steady 3 big projects ongoing over the next few years

    M17/M18 -> M7 widening
    N25 New Ross -> Dunkettle
    M11 Enniscorthy -> Macroom

    There is also the N4/N5 schemes starting around 2019 (N4) and 2021 (N5)

    Then after that the Ringaskiddy and Foynes motorways and in 2021 the Galway bypass and Metro North

    Enniscorthy/Macroom ?

    A motorway to Foynes?

    Did I miss something, it's not April 1st. :confused:


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,226 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    Enniscorthy/Macroom ?

    A motorway to Foynes?

    Did I miss something, it's not April 1st. :confused:
    Sorry, I meant that chronologically. When the first scheme finishes the next one will start. e.g. around the time the M11 Enniscorthy scheme is finishing up in late 2019 the Macroom bypass will be starting up. So we'll have big 3 road schemes ongoing until early 2022.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,364 ✭✭✭✭ Del.Monte


    What about the Foynes motorway - never heard of that one before?


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,226 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    What about the Foynes motorway - never heard of that one before?
    https://www.foyneslimerick.ie/

    So far we have indications that this will be motorway standard from Patrickswell to the Rathkeale interchange by junction design type. As for the rest, it'll definately have to be high quality protected road; but traffic volumes don't require full motorway, it'll likely be some kind of single carriageway with access restrictions and Protected Road status.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057028194


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,364 ✭✭✭✭ Del.Monte


    On that basis it won't be long before there's a dual carriageway on the Ring of Kerry.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,226 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    On that basis it won't be long before there's a dual carriageway on the Ring of Kerry.
    Foynes and Ringaskiddy roads are required as Shannon Foynes and Ringaskiddy are Tier 1 Ports under EU TEN-T.

    Ringaskiddy motorway is required regardless of EU TEN-T and M21 Rathkeale-Patrickswell is also required so the only part not so important is Rathkeale-Foynes.

    There's also strong talks of the Foynes railway being demothballed.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,658 ✭✭✭ Markcheese


    And there's the rub, everyone has they're own idea of what public expenditure should be, should do..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users Posts: 452 ✭✭ __..__


    roadmaster wrote: »
    A huge problem is people see x billion for a metro etc and say it's to expensive and we can't afford it while they don't look at the bigger picture that things like the metro will still be here in some shape or form in 100 years


    Metro North has been promised since even before all of the infrastructure south Dublin got.
    It will never happen. But rest assured there will.br many more improvements to infrastructure in South Dublin and west Dublin before north Dublin.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,168 ✭✭✭ roadmaster


    marno21 wrote: »
    There's going to be a steady 3 big projects ongoing over the next few years

    M17/M18 -> M7 widening
    N25 New Ross -> Dunkettle
    M11 Enniscorthy -> Macroom

    There is also the N4/N5 schemes starting around 2019 (N4) and 2021 (N5)

    Then after that the Ringaskiddy and Foynes motorways and in 2021 the Galway bypass and Metro North

    I just don't have the same faith as yourself just look st the ardee bypass is it happening or is it not at this stage.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,992 ✭✭✭✭ namloc1980


    Any sign of the revised 10 year capital plan? Thought it would have been published by now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,093 ✭✭✭ snotboogie


    marno21 wrote: »
    roadmaster wrote: »
    When it comes to construction capacity in regards to civils I don't thing that's a issue as all the big projects are finishing shortly and there does not appear to be new ones starting soon

    There's going to be a steady 3 big projects ongoing over the next few years

    M17/M18 -> M7 widening
    N25 New Ross -> Dunkettle
    M11 Enniscorthy -> Macroom

    There is also the N4/N5 schemes starting around 2019 (N4) and 2021 (N5)

    Then after that the Ringaskiddy and Foynes motorways and in 2021 the Galway bypass and Metro North
    Surely a North Ring from Dunkettle to Ballincollig/Ovens would be far more beneficial than Dunkettle to New Ross?


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭ sdanseo


    We've connected every city in Ireland (excluding Derry) to Dublin with a motorway in the last decade or so.

    Widening the M7 between three junctions is not a "big project" in that context.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,990 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    sdanseo wrote: »
    We've connected every city in Ireland (excluding Derry) to Dublin with a motorway in the last decade or so.

    Widening the M7 between three junctions is not a "big project" in that context.

    You are right, it isn't.

    With the exception of the M20, the major road projects are done. It is time to turn our attention to the major rail projects Metro North and DART Underground.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭ sdanseo


    bk wrote: »
    You are right, it isn't.

    With the exception of the M20, the major road projects are done. It is time to turn our attention to the major rail projects Metro North and DART Underground.

    M20, M6 Galway Ring, N40 Cork North Ring, and with the spectre of Brexit finishing the M11 and some combination of N24/N25 upgrade are the key new corridors that will see us through a couple of decades without much need to touch anything else. Obviously some upgrades like M7 to be done as well.

    We need to vastly improve commuter rail in Dublin and it's sickening how DU was the golden bullet option which should be opening next year and probably won't even be back on the table at all by then. We need some revolutionary shift in priorities to solve what is fast becoming an infrastructural crisis in Ireland, it goes a long way beyond trains and trams.

    Our water system is crumbling, and the body responsible for fixing that particular mess is too busy giving out refunds.
    We don't have enough houses and we are creating the second perfect property storm in a decade if you listen to McWilliams (who predicted the last crash with alarming accuracy)
    Our hospitals are over capacity and even relatively new A&E like Tallaght / Mater are already overcrowded. We need at least two new hospitals in Dublin
    The electricity grid is difficult to tell apart from the national network of trees.

    Our road network is a spectacular success story amidst all of this and we should be proud of that but let's not let it detract from the huge challenges coming in the next few years and decades.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,781 ✭✭✭ Carawaystick


    A Public transport, cycling/pedestrian bridge linking D15 to Quarryvale/Palmerstown would be a big win, reducing the car commuting demand


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