Rule Query - Unplayable and Provisional Balls

Jawgap

OK, this didn't cause any rows but it was only after the event I thought it might have been an option.....

I hit a drive that ended up heading into some serious rough, so being the conscientious sort I hit a provisional (which of course landed perfectly in the middle of the fairway).

The three of us went forward and the original ball was found quite quickly.

The lie was horrible, the grass was long and the options were limited. I thought about taking an unplayable, but dropping back or dropping within 2 club lengths would not really have helped, and I didn't fancy trotting back to the tee so I opted to play it.

On reflection, I wondered if I could've taken the provo, instead of heading back to the tee to play again?

From my reading of the rules I don't think I can, but I was wondering if anyone else might have more insight on the matter?

rahenyrover

No, in simple terms once the original ball is found, regardless of where, the provo is no longer in play. What you did was correct and your only other option was back to the tee.

Seve OB

rahenyrover wrote: »

No, in simple terms once the original ball is found, regardless of where, the provo is no longer in play. What you did was correct and your only other option was back to the tee.

exactly

celtic_oz

what would the choice be if you found your ball just out of bounds ?.. could you play the provisional?

Keano

celtic_oz wrote: »

what would the choice be if you found your ball just out of bounds ?.. could you play the provisional?

Ya you can then play your provisional.

fred funk }{

You never have an option of which ball to play and there's only ever one ball in play at the one time.

celtic_oz

fred funk }{ wrote: »

You never have an option of which ball to play and there's only ever one ball in play at the one time.

A lost ball over a hill to a blind red stake can throw the cat amongst the pigeons when a provisional is hit

:eek:

Jawgap

celtic_oz wrote: »

what would the choice be if you found your ball just out of bounds ?.. could you play the provisional?

OOB is OOB, the original can't be played.....so in that case the provisional is your only option.

Webbs

celtic_oz wrote: »

A lost ball over a hill to a blind red stake can throw the cat amongst the pigeons when a provisional is hit

:eek:

Not really. No one would have seen ball enter Hazard so ball deemed lost so provo in play.

mike12

Webbs wrote: »

Not really. No one would have seen ball enter Hazard so ball deemed lost so provo in play.

Not true, if there is no where else for the ball to be, the additions to the rules allow you to take a drop.

kopkidda

Could you not of taken an unplayable and go back as far as you like keeping the hole in line?

Jawgap

kopkidda wrote: »

Could you not of taken an unplayable and go back as far as you like keeping the hole in line?

I could have but as I said originally

Jawgap wrote: »

.......dropping back or dropping within 2 club lengths would not really have helped, and I didn't fancy trotting back to the tee so I opted to play it.

.....

I would've had to go back some distance and I'd still have been dropping in heavy grass or heavy grass and a downslope, or the fringe of an elevated green



Personally, I think it was an outstanding shot to get it into that position in the first place!

Jawgap

mike12 wrote: »

Not true, if there is no where else for the ball to be, the additions to the rules allow you to take a drop.

i thought the test was 'certain or virtually certain' - and you can't arrive at that conclusion by a process of elimination?

CalamariFritti

mike12 wrote: »

Not true, if there is no where else for the ball to be, the additions to the rules allow you to take a drop.

I’m pretty sure that’s not correct. There are very few situations where you can be that certain that you simply haven’t found it.

Keano

mike12 wrote: »

Not true, if there is no where else for the ball to be, the additions to the rules allow you to take a drop.

Unless it was seen going in, then you cannot simply say it went in. Have to play the provisional if one was hit or go back to tee and hit another ball.

mike12

Jawgap wrote: »

i thought the test was 'certain or virtually certain' - and you can't arrive at that conclusion by a process of elimination?

Say u hit a drive up the middle of the fairway on a new course,
It goes over the brow of a hill you get up there and there is no rough or trees but a massive lake.
I'd be virtually certain where my ball was.
It's buried somewhere in the decisions but can't find it again.

Hoboo

Correct me if Im wrong, but if you see your ball sail into thick bushes, you can call it lost/unplayable straight away, play 3 off the tee, and not bother looking for the first.......saves time going back to the tee.


Regarding the provisional, you can play your second shot of the provisional before looking for the first, so long as it is past where your provisional lies, then go look for your first.

celtic_oz

Keano wrote: »

Unless it was seen going in, then you cannot simply say it went in. Have to play the provisional if one was hit or go back to tee and hit another ball.

You dont have to SEE a ball going into a blind hazard to be virtually certain it went in.

Also who has to be "virtually certain" the player or a unanimous group decision?

cat and pigeons

Seve OB

Webbs wrote: »

Not really. No one would have seen ball enter Hazard so ball deemed lost so provo in play.

mike12 wrote: »

Not true, if there is no where else for the ball to be, the additions to the rules allow you to take a drop.

If it is known of virtually certain. That is the key. You don't have to see it enter the hazard, but at the same time you can't just go by process of elimination and guess that is where it is.

Eg, you hit the ball over this big hill and there is water there. But there may be a queston if you hit it far enough to actually make the water and there is heavy rough and even some bushes short of the water which your ball may be in.

you have no choice here, except to call it a lost ball, because there is a chance it is not actually in the water.

if over the hill, there is a nice short cut fairway right up to the edge of the water, you were hoping upon hope you would stay short of the drink but no sign of any ball as you go over the hill and arrive at waters edge. well then you never seen the ball go in the water, but you are virtually certain that is where it went, so you may proceed with a ball in the hazard.

known....for a fact, seen it go in
or virtually certain.... has to be there as you are confident of line and distance that it made the hazard. Not that might be in there because i cant find it anywhere else.

celtic_oz

if over the hill, there is a nice short cut fairway right up to the edge of the water, you were hoping upon hope you would stay short of the drink but no sign of any ball as you go over the hill and arrive at waters edge. well then you never seen the ball go in the water, but you are virtually certain that is where it went, so you may proceed with a ball in the hazard.

As per above and Player announces "I'm virtually certain my ball is in the hazard" and proceeds to drop

Member of group throws low ball comment in "hmmmm it might not have reached water, or was it this hill?.. we ALL have to agree"

cat and pigeons

CalamariFritti

I think it's like the 'did I cause the ball to move' question, ultimately the player decides whether it's certain or not. How certain one's personal certain is depends on how honest a golfer we are. The wording is designed to encourage that certain actually means certain and we are not generous with it.

In the given example with the big lake in the middle of the fairway with no rough or trees, I'd call that virtually certain.

If there's wet 12cm long rough around the lake its still very likely, but no longer certain.

celtic_oz

grand so the player can tell dissidents in the group .. "I decide the virtual certainty of the ball being in the hazard, it doesn't have to be agreed on the tee by everyone"

and can proceed to drop a ball for a stroke .. in matchplay

londonred

Jawgap wrote: »

OK, this didn't cause any rows but it was only after the event I thought it might have been an option.....

I hit a drive that ended up heading into some serious rough, so being the conscientious sort I hit a provisional (which of course landed perfectly in the middle of the fairway).

The three of us went forward and the original ball was found quite quickly.

The lie was horrible, the grass was long and the options were limited. I thought about taking an unplayable, but dropping back or dropping within 2 club lengths would not really have helped, and I didn't fancy trotting back to the tee so I opted to play it.

On reflection, I wondered if I could've taken the provo, instead of heading back to the tee to play again?

From my reading of the rules I don't think I can, but I was wondering if anyone else might have more insight on the matter?

Thought you could declare the first one lost walking down the fairway without having to looking for it then play the provo seen this happen a lot when the first ball goes into jungle.

Jawgap

londonred wrote: »

Thought you could declare the first one lost walking down the fairway without having to looking for it then play the provo seen this happen a lot when the first ball goes into jungle.

I know you can opt not to look but you can't declare it lost. If anyone finds it before you play your next stroke with the provisional (assuming you hit the provisional beyond where the ball was likely lost) then the provisional can't be put into play.

Russman

celtic_oz wrote: »

grand so the player can tell dissidents in the group .. "I decide the virtual certainty of the ball being in the hazard, it doesn't have to be agreed on the tee by everyone"

and can proceed to drop a ball for a stroke .. in matchplay

Pretty long winded..........

D26-1/1
When a ball has been struck towards a water hazard and cannot be found, a player may not assume that his ball is in the water hazard simply because there is a possibility that the ball may be in the water hazard. In order to proceed under Rule 26-1, it must be “known or virtually certain” that the ball is in the water hazard. In the absence of “knowledge or virtual certainty” that it lies in a water hazard, a ball that cannot be found must be considered lost somewhere other than in a water hazard and the player must proceed under Rule 27-1.

When a player’s ball cannot be found, “knowledge” may be gained that his ball is in a water hazard in a number of ways. The player or his caddie or other members of his match or group may actually observe the ball disappear into the water hazard. Evidence provided by other reliable witnesses may also establish that the ball is in the water hazard. Such evidence could come from a referee, an observer, spectators or other outside agencies. It is important that all readily accessible information be considered because, for example, the mere fact that a ball has splashed in a water hazard would not always provide “knowledge” that the ball is in the water hazard, as there are instances when a ball may skip out of, and come to rest outside, the hazard.

In the absence of “knowledge” that the ball is in the water hazard, Rule 26-1 requires there to be “virtual certainty” that the player’s ball is in the water hazard in order to proceed under this Rule. Unlike “knowledge,” “virtual certainty” implies some small degree of doubt about the actual location of a ball that has not been found. However, “virtual certainty” also means that, although the ball has not been found, when all readily available information is considered, the conclusion that there is nowhere that the ball could be except in the water hazard would be justified.

In determining whether “virtual certainty” exists, some of the relevant factors in the area of the water hazard to be considered include topography, turf conditions, grass heights, visibility, weather conditions and the proximity of trees, bushes and abnormal ground conditions.

The same principles would apply for a ball that may have been moved by an outside agency (Rule 18-1) or a ball that has not been found and may be in an obstruction (Rule 24-3) or an abnormal ground condition (Rule 25-1c).

celtic_oz

In the absence of “knowledge” that the ball is in the water hazard, Rule 26-1 requires there to be “virtual certainty” that the player’s ball is in the water hazard in order to proceed under this Rule. Unlike “knowledge,” “virtual certainty” implies some small degree of doubt about the actual location of a ball that has not been found. However, “virtual certainty” also means that, although the ball has not been found, when all readily available information is considered, the conclusion that there is nowhere that the ball could be except in the water hazard would be justified.

In determining whether “virtual certainty” exists, some of the relevant factors in the area of the water hazard to be considered include topography, turf conditions, grass heights, visibility, weather conditions and the proximity of trees, bushes and abnormal ground conditions.

Question is WHO has to be virtually certain .. if the player IS and so is majority of the group.. but there is a dissenting voice, can the player ignore him and drop ?

CalamariFritti

celtic_oz wrote: »

grand so the player can tell dissidents in the group .. "I decide the virtual certainty of the ball being in the hazard, it doesn't have to be agreed on the tee by everyone"

and can proceed to drop a ball for a stroke .. in matchplay

I can't see how it can be decided on tee anyway unless it actually is certain. You can play a provisional on the tee.

And yes matchplay is different because there's more than just your personal honesty in play now.

Not specifically directed at you but generally speaking, I don't see how this is going to be much of an issue unless in special circumstances. Just be honest with yourself and the game and there won't be much of a problem. I only see problems when players look for advantages they're not really due. One could decide to err on the conservative side rather than on the generous side and no one will object.

prawnsambo

CalamariFritti wrote: »

I can't see how it can be decided on tee anyway unless it actually is certain. You can play a provisional on the tee.

And yes matchplay is different because there's more than just your personal honesty in play now.

Not specifically directed at you but generally speaking, I don't see how this is going to be much of an issue unless in special circumstances. Just be honest with yourself and the game and there won't be much of a problem. I only see problems when players look for advantages they're not really due. One could decide to err on the conservative side rather than on the generous side and no one will object.

Funny enough, I was on the wrong end of something like that. Totally my own fault, but I was sure my third shot on a par 5 went into a small lake. Saw it head into it (playing partner agreed) and went down to the lake and had a look around the edge and in the (very murky) water, but no sign, so took a drop and played on. Finished up the hole and as I was walking off, there was my ball in the rough adjacent to the green. It must have taken a skip off the water or surrounding mud, but it was at least twenty yards past where I saw it go in. We'd spent no more than a couple of minutes looking as we were both sure it was wet.

FixdePitchmark

Laytown Bettystown 16

Sorry getting this thread all wrong :P

But if you hit a drive it must have been 15 and you went right towards 16 green.

Jawgap

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Laytown Bettystown 16

Sorry getting this thread all wrong :P

But if you hit a drive it must have been 15 and you went right towards 16 green.

Correct

Was teeing off from 15 and managed to stick it behind the mound that back stops 16......bearing in mind I was actually aiming more towards 14......it's possible my swing path was sub-optimal on the context of my body alignment and the club face at impact......;)

.......the left to right wind then did the rest!!!!!!

newport2

celtic_oz wrote: »

A lost ball over a hill to a blind red stake can throw the cat amongst the pigeons when a provisional is hit

:eek:

This has caught a lot of people out before - including Greg Norman (and Fred Couples), interesting scenario at end of story in a link attached http://www.barryrhodes.com/2010/04/when-you-may-not-play-provisional-ball.html


27-2a/2 Provisional Ball Played Solely in Belief Original Ball Might Be in Water Hazard
Q. A player's tee shot might be in a water hazard, but clearly it is not lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds. The player announces that, since his ball might be in the hazard, he is going to play a provisional ball and he does so. Rule 27-2a seems to prohibit a provisional ball in the circumstances. What is the ruling?
A. The player did not play a provisional ball which, according to the Definition of "Provisional Ball," is a ball played under Rule 27-2 for a ball which may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds. The second ball from the tee was in play since it was not a provisional ball.

27-2a/2.2 Possibility That Original Ball Is in Water Hazard May Not Preclude Play of Provisional Ball
Q. If a player's original ball may have come to rest in a water hazard, is he precluded from playing a provisional ball?
A. No. Even though the original ball may be in a water hazard, the player is entitled to play a provisional ball if the original ball might also be lost outside the water hazard or out of bounds. In such a case, if the original ball is found in the water hazard, the provisional ball must be abandoned — Rule 27-2c (Formerly 27-2c/1)

londonred

newport2 wrote: »

This has caught a lot of people out before - including Greg Norman (and Fred Couples), interesting scenario at end of story in a link attached http://www.barryrhodes.com/2010/04/when-you-may-not-play-provisional-ball.html


27-2a/2 Provisional Ball Played Solely in Belief Original Ball Might Be in Water Hazard
Q. A player's tee shot might be in a water hazard, but clearly it is not lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds. The player announces that, since his ball might be in the hazard, he is going to play a provisional ball and he does so. Rule 27-2a seems to prohibit a provisional ball in the circumstances. What is the ruling?
A. The player did not play a provisional ball which, according to the Definition of "Provisional Ball," is a ball played under Rule 27-2 for a ball which may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds. The second ball from the tee was in play since it was not a provisional ball.

27-2a/2.2 Possibility That Original Ball Is in Water Hazard May Not Preclude Play of Provisional Ball
Q. If a player's original ball may have come to rest in a water hazard, is he precluded from playing a provisional ball?
A. No. Even though the original ball may be in a water hazard, the player is entitled to play a provisional ball if the original ball might also be lost outside the water hazard or out of bounds. In such a case, if the original ball is found in the water hazard, the provisional ball must be abandoned — Rule 27-2c (Formerly 27-2c/1)

Long winded rule as a lot of these holes , there is 2 holes on the blue nine in Donabate where you cant see the hazard from the tee 4th and 5th if I recall also can think of another on the front nine in St Margarets where there is a blind tee shot with a pond on the left .