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Should dublin develop a green belt?

  • 22-10-2017 11:12am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭ wakka12


    To halt further sprawl of the city? Even though theres a housing crisis we could easily create massive tracts of housing within the current confines of the city. just down the road from me in rathgar, in a site of a former driving centre 3 massive apartment blocks and 50 houses will be built. 600-800 people will move in this winter. Theres so many spces like this we could desnify in dublin without building on free sites further out of the city. Densifying current areas means new residents will be part of already well integratec communities with better transport and services etc


Comments

  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Amirani


    We have a natural barrier to South in the Dublin/Wicklow mountains, to the East with Dublin Bay and somewhat to the North with Malahide Estuary - though this is less of an impediment.

    Unfortunately there's almost zero geographic features containing sprawl to the West, and sprawl there Dublin did in the past couple of decades. There's not much we can do about that now - Leixlip/Celbridge/Maynooth, Clonee and everything between them and city centre are part of Dublin's continuous urban area now. A formal green belt that encompasses these and prohibits unnecessary development to the South West,North West and North of Dublin might be good.

    Adding density to the urban core should absolutely be the priority strategy. This is why certain schemes like extending the Dart to Balbriggan seem silly to me. Surely a preferable rail project would be electrification of the Maynooth line and upgrading all this corridor to DART standard?


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,673 ✭✭✭✭ Zebra3


    We don’t need a green belt around the city but if we build out it should be along public transport corridors with green area in between them like Copenhagen’s finger plan.

    But our planning is a shambles. There should be a master plan drawn up for what’s needed and not just allowing builders to develop an estate here and estate there with them submitting plans that are geared towards their greed.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,100 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell


    Planning in Ireland is not able to cope. County Development Plans should be much more detailed than at present.

    It is the owner of the land that decides what should be built, not the planners. Owners propose and planners approve or not.

    We should have New Towns built around transport hubs, with full town/village infrastructure built before the housing (or at least the same time). Too often in the past, builders build the houses and disappear leaving a significant infrastructure deficit. No schools, churches, shops, clinics, etc.

    Planning is what we need, and a single planning authority for the GDA.


  • Registered Users Posts: 200 ✭✭ JDigweed


    Until we start to build proper high rise apartments in the city centre we can't control the sprawl. Dublin City planners have wasted the docklands on undersized apartment blocks, they could have houses thousands more beside offices and rail stations. Ive no doubt this would free up accommodation in the suburbs currently rented by workers who would rather walk to work rather travel from the edge of the city.


  • Registered Users Posts: 61 ✭✭ FredFunk


    Development around the various train stations on the Heuston line would help.
    Park West, some apartments - partial success
    Kishoge - not open, nothing around it.
    Clondalkin - good car park, nothing around it
    Adamstown - the distance between the station and the village center/shops is excessive, planned by a 3 year old perhaps
    Hazelhatch - why build all those houses in Celbridge, when the train is in Hazelhatch, big car park, make a village around it.
    Sallins - relative success compared to others


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,781 ✭✭✭ Carawaystick


    The Heuston Line's a disaster, without DART underground to get people to the city centre


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 697 ✭✭✭ wordofwarning


    JDigweed wrote: »
    Until we start to build proper high rise apartments in the city centre we can't control the sprawl. Dublin City planners have wasted the docklands on undersized apartment blocks, they could have houses thousands more beside offices and rail stations. Ive no doubt this would free up accommodation in the suburbs currently rented by workers who would rather walk to work rather travel from the edge of the city.

    AFAIK the planning rules place a ridiculous low cap on building close to a train station. If you go to Germany, you will see high rise about U-Bahn Station or high rises beside an S-Bahn station (their version of a dart). Here you will see two storey houses beside a Dart station

    One option is a land and property tax on new builds. The Government should zone land beside a train station as high value. Divide the land tax by the number of units on the site. A developer will not be able to sell a house with a massive land tax bill, as he completely under utilised a site


  • Registered Users Posts: 881 ✭✭✭ Bray Head


    There are already 11 golf courses inside the M50.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭ Cheyenne Panicky Giraffe


    The whole country needs a (proper) green belt in terms of actual parks or parklands.

    Plain green fields are all very well, but Ireland (and the Netherlands) at 11%, are the least forested countries in Europe (excluding small islands).
    Finland has +70%. The most populous country in the EU: Germany has 30+%.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,867 ✭✭✭✭ JupiterKid


    Dublin did have a green belt, designated in the early 1970s, but unlike London's green belt which has held in place for 80 years, it had no statutory protection and Dublin's was eaten into and eroded away by corrupt planning decisions driven by housing developer greed in the 1980s and early 90s.

    The Liffey Valley between Palmerstown and Castleknock acts as a sort of "green finger" for West Dublin, and Tallaght is separated from Templeogue by Tymon Park. The Dublin mountains to the South, Dublin Bay to the East and the Dublin Airport development exclusion zone all act as barriers. But there has never been a proper green belt policy for Dublin.

    What is badly needed is medium to high density housing development linked by high capacity metro/LUAS lines, but this is currently all aspirational. Unlike other European countries, we don't do detailed, area specific land use planning very well here at all.


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,995 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    Visiting Oslo, Norway was a real eye opener for me. I've never seen so much greenery and parks right throughout the whole city.

    Not some distant green belt scrub land that no one wants to go near, but parks right along every road and in front of every apartment building.

    And that is the key thing, they haven't ruined their cities with terrible two bed semi-d's with tiny gardens out the back that of course no one can access and reality are too small for anything but the youngest kids. What you have in Oslo instead are lots of 4 to 6 storey apartment buildings each which has a park out front of it, separating the building from the road and leaving a great large nice park, with play grounds, etc. open to everyone in the community.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,995 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    Scenes like the following are very common throughout Oslo:

    Iladalen_park2.JPG

    Grunerlokka-Minigolf-Park-copyright-Christiania-Minigolf-Club.jpg?t=ScaleDownToFill|1500x1500


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,781 ✭✭✭ Carawaystick


    Deedsie wrote: »
    Every County Council in Ireland should be obliged to develop a park similar to St Catherines Park in Lucan. Playing fields, walking routes, playground etc. A proper amenity for the use of the entire community.

    And a car park so people in the rest of the county can get there ;)


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,995 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    Deedsie wrote: »
    Well it can't be everywhere. Unfortunately. St. Catherines park has a car park. Ideal world there would be public transport to the parks. But for probably every council bar 7 I don't think that would be achievable. Bicycle parking and access would give people an alternative to driving to the parks.

    Actually I disagree, it can be. Go to Oslo and you will see what I mean. Green urban parks down literally every street. Play grounds, seating for residents, paths through trees, etc. outside every apartment building, down almost every street.

    They of course also have the large dedicate parks too. But I believe we are definitely missing out on a trick of having shared parks, trees, play grounds around all our homes, where kids can play outside without being driven to a distant park.

    Also helps to reduce noise from roads, pollution, etc.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,995 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    Deedsie wrote: »
    In an ideal world I agree of course. But I think it would be asking a lot of every Municipal district in Ireland to achieve that. Would be great though. As in a municipal district council could pick a strategic park location to try serve everyone.

    Well it isn't just about an ideal world, it is about creating that world going forward.

    We have destroyed our urban environment with one off houses with little gardens out the back, that no one else can access and far too little really usable space for children and people. But it really doesn't have to be that way.

    Over 20 years ago, the residents association in my area started pushing for any new developments in the area to be apartments and for them to be surrounded by open green areas and for those areas to be accessible to all (not gated).

    And they have been very successful, as a result I live in one of those apartments with a lovely big green area all around it and it is open to all the neighbours in the area. It is brilliant, I love it and as a result I'm convinced all new developments in Dublin should be like this.

    The green area is maintained by the apartment management company, not Dublin City Council, so no problem there. My particular development isn't quite perfect, their is no playground or seats for residents and one side lacks mature trees, so the space isn't quite as well used as it could be, but it is still way better then most places *

    Fortunately a new development is being planned 5 minutes walk away and the plans for that are including a very nice mature park and well equipped play ground open to the either neighbourhood, brilliant.

    Of course their isn't much we can do about existing homes, but we can absolutely change things for any new developments.

    * And yes, I'm constantly hounding the management company to put in a play ground, benches and maybe even some urban allotments.


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