Recommended commercial EV charge point

KCross

As a result of the recent BIK announcement in the budget my company is showing more positive signs around providing a charge point for employees.

I'd like to hear from people who have recently got work charge points installed.

- What exact make of charge point did they get.... wall mount or pedestal?
- Is it a managed charge point (RFID card, usage tracked etc) or free to use?
- If you happen to know the costs of the civil works to put in a pedestal charge point that would be useful. I know it will be site dependent but it would still be useful to get a ballpark figure.



I want to go back to the company with as much information as possible. I'd also like to suggest a recommended charge point so if anyone is in the know there please speak up. Some background...
- We have a 3 phase supply.
- It might be a free to use charger but I think they will want a unit that has the ability to PAYG so I'm thinking a token based system would work. It would also stop strangers from pulling up and using it.
- They want the least amount of hassle as possible and don't want backend hardware/software and tracking systems etc so it needs to be kept simple.
- Two sockets at a minimum, more if that were possible, as the charger could be placed in a cluster of 4 spaces. Are there 4 socket charge points?


So, what charge point would you recommend based on the above info?

My initial thought is the 2 socket Rolec pedestal, that has an optional token based activation system, would suit:
http://assets.rolecserv.com/files/products_document/52917dddd807b522efc318469805b605/EVACD001%20-%20AutoCharge%20pedestal.pdf

This cheaper option is also possible but it has no PAYG option..
http://www.rexelenergysolutions.co.uk/product/2500698065/Rolec-Mode-3-EV-Charging-Station-BasicCharge-Pedestal-32amp-3PH-IEC62196-Type-2-Dual-Socket



One last question.... if you only have a 2 socket charge point is there any advantage in getting a 3 phase unit?
For example, the cheaper Rolec above says:

2 x 16amp 3 Phase (22kW) Type 2 IEC62196 charging sockets

The more expensive Rolec is single phase but has:

2 x 32amp (7.2kW) charging sockets

So, what rate do you get from the 3 phase unit if you have a 7kW EV? Is it just 3.6kW?

i.e. Is the only way to get the full 22kW out of it is if you have 2 Zoe's who have 11kW on board 3 phase chargers?


I would like to ensure that 7kW is available to every car to allow a quicker turnover of cars. 2 cars charge in the morning, 2 in the afternoon. If all they can get is 3.6kW it will get blocked quickly. We already have several EV's in the car park so I want to future proof it some bit.


Thoughts, insight, gotchas are welcome.

cros13

Some questions:
What's the MIC of your supply? If you don't know.... what size is the building and what kind of business is the company in (e.g. is it industrial...)?
How scalable do you want this to be? Do you need load sharing?
Do you really really need tokens/payg? Because it's way cheaper and easier to do without those things.

KCross wrote: »

So, what rate do you get from the 3 phase unit if you have a 7kW EV? Is it just 3.6kW?

7.4kW

KCross wrote: »

i.e. Is the only way to get the full 22kW out of it is if you have 2 Zoe's who have 11kW on board 3 phase chargers?

No, Zoe's have 22 or 43kW onboard chargers. Some older Teslas have 22kW chargers, a lot of vans have 22kW. Post 2016 i3s have 11kW three phase chargers and would only charge at 3.6kW on a 7.4kW single phase supply.

If three phase is available, make use of it. It's the best way of ensuring that all cars charge as fast as possible and also helps with load management because the load of at least some EVs will be distributed across the the three phases.
In your position I wouldn't consider anything but 22kW 32A 3-phase chargepoints.

For free-to-use... go with this Rolec, try to keep the total cost as low as possible:
http://www.rexelenergysolutions.co.uk/product/2500698065/Rolec-Mode-3-EV-Charging-Station-BasicCharge-Pedestal-32amp-3PH-IEC62196-Type-2-Dual-Socket

For Token go with:
http://www.rexelenergysolutions.co.uk/product/2500698141/Rolec-Mode-3-EV-Charging-Station-Pedestal-AutoCharge-Dual-3ph-32amp-IEC62196-Type-2-Sockets-Token-Or-Coin

For PAYG/Load Sharing/high scalability go for ZapTec:
http://zaptec.com
http://www.zaptec.com/copy-of-zapcharger-pro-scalable

KCross

cros13 wrote: »

Some questions:
What's the MIC of your supply? If you don't know.... what size is the building and what kind of business is the company in (e.g. is it industrial...)?

Straight answer... I don't know the MIC but I can find out. I don't think we will be short on power. It had its on site power upgraded a few years back. Its in a business park and has its own dedicated power building external to the main building itself. I'll get the MIC.

cros13 wrote: »

How scalable do you want this to be? Do you need load sharing?

It will be a standalone charge point. Scalability isn't on the agenda as they are as tight as a duck a*se. I'll be happy to get one charge point in!

If it becomes busy I might be able to convince them to add another one in a few years but for now scalability isn't required.

cros13 wrote: »

Do you really really need tokens/payg? Because it's way cheaper and easier to do without those things.

Do I need it, no! Does the company need it, probably not, but I want to have a solution if they look for it.

The token based system seemed to be the least overhead to me. If you go down the road of RFID cards you have to have hardware/software to support that. A token will just get recycled over and over again. Very simple.

cros13 wrote: »

No, Zoe's have 22 or 43kW onboard chargers. Some older Teslas have 22kW chargers, a lot of vans have 22kW. Post 2016 i3s have 11kW three phase chargers and would only charge at 3.6kW on a 7.4kW single phase supply.

If three phase is available, make use of it. It's the best way of ensuring that all cars charge as fast as possible and also helps with load management because the load of at least some EVs will be distributed across the the three phases.
In your position I wouldn't consider anything but 22kW 32A 3-phase chargepoints.

OK, thanks.

Can you educate me a bit more on the 3 phase.... how did you calculate 7.4kW from the 3 phase unit for a single phase Leaf?

I presume from the cars perspective it doesn't know/care its a 3 phase charger it just pulls from one phase.... is it?

For example, if I have 2X32A sockets on a single phase, isn't that just as good as 2x32A on 3 phase? Isn't the end result the same for whoever connects? No?

cros13

KCross wrote: »

Straight answer... I don't know the MIC but I can find out. I don't think we will be short on power. It had its on site power upgraded a few years back. Its in a business park and has its own dedicated power building external to the main building itself. I'll get the MIC.

I don't think you have any issue. Just covering my bases in case it was a low MIC 3-phase farm supply or something

KCross wrote: »

It will be a standalone charge point. Scalability isn't on the agenda as they are as tight as a duck a*se. I'll be happy to get one charge point in!

Get a quote from Zaptec, present them with the Rolec Basiccharge as the cheap option. The Zaptec quote should scare them off doing anything fancy.

KCross wrote: »

Can you educate me a bit more on the 3 phase.... how did you calculate 7.4kW from the 3 phase unit for a single phase Leaf?

My answer wasn't specific to the Leaf. The Leaf is weird and limits it's power draw to 14.5 Amps (3.3) or 29 Amps (6.6) to avoid some issues in some markets (mainly small houses in markets like germany with 3-phase but limited to 14.5A per phase). It was based on the 32A chargepoint: 1x230v x32A = 7.36kW

KCross wrote: »

I presume from the cars perspective it doesn't know/care its a 3 phase charger it just pulls from one phase.... is it?

If it's a single phase charger in the car you are correct. However a car that has a three phase charger onboard will pull power from all three phases.

Example:

7.4kW single phase 32A chargepoint.

Nissan Leaf 3.3 or 6.6 would charge at 3.3kW or 6.6.kW respectively (1x230Vx14.5A = ~3.34kW | 1x230Vx29A = 6.67kW )
BMW i3 2014 would charge at 7.4kW (1x230Vx32A = 7.36kW)
BMW i3 2016 or 2017 Model S which all have an 11kW 3-phase charger onboard would be limited to 3.6kW (11kW 3-phase charger draws just 16A per phase max (1x230Vx16A = 3.68kW) )
A 2015 Model S or Zoe with a 22kW onboard 3-phase charger would be limited to 7.4kW (32A per phase (1x230Vx32A = 7.36kW) )

On a 22kW 3-phase (3 x 230V x 32A = 22.08kW) chargepoint everyone above can charge as fast as their onboard chargers can handle. There is little to no difference in price, since you have three-phase power available you should get a 22kW.

KCross

cros13 wrote: »

I don't think you have any issue. Just covering my bases in case it was a low MIC 3-phase farm supply or something

Yea, I think we are OK. I see 10kV on the door of the sub-station, which is dedicated to the building. I haven't got the MIC but I doubt 14-22kW will even show up on the "needle"!

cros13 wrote: »

BMW i3 2016 or 2017 Model S which all have an 11kW 3-phase charger onboard would be limited to 3.6kW (11kW 3-phase charger draws just 16A per phase max (1x230Vx16A = 3.68kW) )

Thats interesting. So, getting a 3 phase 11kW onboard charger in an EV would actually be a bad thing if you don't have 3 phase at home as it would limit you to 3.6kW.... which is a far cry from 11kW (which is what someone, who doesn't understand, might think they are getting).

I presume the 2016 i3 also comes in a single phase 7kW charger config?

cros13 wrote: »

On a 22kW 3-phase (3 x 230V x 32A = 22.08kW) chargepoint everyone above can charge as fast as their onboard chargers can handle. There is little to no difference in price, since you have three-phase power available you should get a 22kW.

Thanks, that makes sense now.
I've requested they get quotes for a 3 phase 2x32A unit.

Dardania

Just a small query - do you need to charge people to go home in the evening, or do you have people that need a quick zap in the morning to go out again quickly (e.g. sales people)?
Might have a bearing on you final solution e.g. if you go for lower current, multi outlet solution, or a single outlet high power solution

KCross

Dardania wrote: »

Just a small query - do you need to charge people to go home in the evening, or do you have people that need a quick zap in the morning to go out again quickly (e.g. sales people)?
Might have a bearing on you final solution e.g. if you go for lower current, multi outlet solution, or a single outlet high power solution

No sales, just charge to get home.

There are lamp posts along the car park which could be retrofitted with the Ubitricity solution. I might cross that bridge with them once I get this first charge point across the line. Its early days yet... once they get a quote for civil works they might balk!

https://www.ubitricity.com/en/charging-solutiona/b2b-real-estate-managers/

jt_dublin

I had my home charger fitted by SmartCharge but they do commercial ones too. As a company to deal with, I would recommend them.

Their commercial product is called SMARTCHARGE BUSINESS

• 32A charging.
• Wall or pedestal mounted.
• Tracks electricity usage.
• Free charging or payment options available.

A bit from their website:

Smartcharge is the leading provider of electrical vehicle charging solutions in Ireland. Our team have been developing EV charge points and solutions since 2011. We continue to invest in R&D to meet the ever changing demands of EV drivers. Our in depth knowledge of the market and future trends informed us to develop a unique Apartment charging solution. We have also developed the fastest home charger available on the market. Our vision is to support all EV drivers in Ireland and across Europe with the most technically sophisticated, integrated and aesthetically pleasing charging infrastructure.

http://www.smartcharge.ie/smartcharge-pro/

I dealt with Jerome Flannery 087 2824149 who is very knowledgeable.

Hope this helps.

JT.

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

- What exact make of charge point did they get.... wall mount or pedestal?
- Is it a managed charge point (RFID card, usage tracked etc) or free to use?
- If you happen to know the costs of the civil works to put in a pedestal charge point that would be useful. I know it will be site dependent but it would still be useful to get a ballpark figure.



So, what charge point would you recommend based on the above info?


Thoughts, insight, gotchas are welcome.

We have recently gotten 2 of the 2x22kW rolec pedestal units installed by mcc energy. They were the cheaper, free to use ones. Since you can't access our site in general without a badge, there was no worry about randomers getting a freebie. Therefore it's a free for all, no tokens/rfid/backend needed

Would suggest for futureproofing that you get the 22kW triple phase if it's available.

Dardania

KCross wrote: »

Dardania wrote: »

Just a small query - do you need to charge people to go home in the evening, or do you have people that need a quick zap in the morning to go out again quickly (e.g. sales people)?
Might have a bearing on you final solution e.g. if you go for lower current, multi outlet solution, or a single outlet high power solution

No sales, just charge to get home.

There are lamp posts along the car park which could be retrofitted with the Ubitricity solution. I might cross that bridge with them once I get this first charge point across the line. Its early days yet... once they get a quote for civil works they might balk!

https://www.ubitricity.com/en/charging-solutiona/b2b-real-estate-managers/

My temptation in that case would be to:
- have cheapest possible charger type installed, and multiples of them - and size to filled a reasonable kWH over a working day
(e.g. 40kWh in 8 hours is 5 kW instantaneous over 8 days, so size for 7kW per outlet - exactly as in your OP)
this way, you will be unlikely to run into overload situations, compared to larger capacity chargers. And if you do have issues, you can stagger switch on times etc. centrally
- have a control wire (or wires) to relays in each to enable or disable by someone at reception, or even on a 7 day timer, to prevent external people coming in and robbing electricity
Are you going to go for solution where users provide their own cable to plug into your socket?

KCross

Dardania wrote: »

My temptation in that case would be to:
- have cheapest possible charger type installed, and multiples of them - and size to filled a reasonable kWH over a working day
(e.g. 40kWh in 8 hours is 5 kW instantaneous over 8 days, so size for 7kW per outlet - exactly as in your OP)
this way, you will be unlikely to run into overload situations, compared to larger capacity chargers. And if you do have issues, you can stagger switch on times etc. centrally
- have a control wire (or wires) to relays in each to enable or disable by someone at reception, or even on a 7 day timer, to prevent external people coming in and robbing electricity
Are you going to go for solution where users provide their own cable to plug into your socket?

Unfortunately I'm limited to pedestal type systems, I think. The car park spaces are too far from the building to use wall mounted units. That limits my options quite a bit apart from an ubitricity type solution.

I know the most Im going to get is one charge point for now. If I went in with a "give me 10 slow chargers or 1 faster charger" I know what they will pick.

The approach here (from the company) will be to limit cost and the civil work will cost more than the charger so they will want one charge point not 10.

Running control wires back to reception etc will be a non-runner. Low maintenance is a must here.

And yes, each person needs to provide their own cable. That would be standard practice to ensure every type of car can use the charge points.

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

We have recently gotten 2 of the 2x22kW rolec pedestal units installed by mcc energy. They were the cheaper, free to use ones. Since you can't access our site in general without a badge, there was no worry about randomers getting a freebie. Therefore it's a free for all, no tokens/rfid/backend needed

Would suggest for futureproofing that you get the 22kW triple phase if it's available.

How much for the units?
How much for install?

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

Unfortunately I'm limited to pedestal type systems, I think. The car park spaces are too far from the building to use wall mounted units. That limits my options quite a bit apart from an ubitricity type solution.

I know the most Im going to get is one charge point for now. If I went in with a "give me 10 slow chargers or 1 faster charger" I know what they will pick.

The approach here (from the company) will be to limit cost and the civil work will cost more than the charger so they will want one charge point not 10.

Running control wires back to reception etc will be a non-runner. Low maintenance is a must here.

And yes, each person needs to provide their own cable. That would be standard practice to ensure every type of car can use the charge points.

It's the same approach that I was given too, we'll install one and if more than 2-3 EVs are on site we can consider more then. I wanted to get 4*7kW but was told 2*22kW was the only option.

Would strongly strongly make sure that you get untethered units. If you get tethered units they will only work for type1 or type2 cars. Whereas an untethered unit can be used by anyone with a type2 cable.

BoatMad

Could I suggest you contact Joe McCarthy of MCC Controls , who in conjunction with Nigel Daley as his installer does arguably most of the private commercial and installs in the country of including big name multinationals etc.

KCross

BoatMad wrote: »

Could I suggest you contact Joe McCarthy of MCC Controls , who in conjunction with Nigel Daley as his installer does arguably most of the private commercial and installs in the country of including big name multinationals etc.

I got a ridiculous quote from him for my home install so I won't be recommending him.

Regardless, they have approved electrical contractors they work with so I doubt I'll be able to influence who does the work. Who knows it might be him!

BoatMad

KCross wrote: »

I got a ridiculous quote from him for my home install so I won't be recommending him.

Regardless, they have approved electrical contractors they work with so I doubt I'll be able to influence who does the work. Who knows it might be him!

I didn't suggest you or any others buy from him, merely that he and Nigel have done a large number of commercial installs and therefore he would be useful to talk to about options and what's available

Actual compative quotes are another thing entirely

KCross

Anyone any knowledge of ABL eMH3 commercial 3-phase charge points:

https://shop.mobilityhouse.com/de_en/ladestationen/abl-emh3-twin-socket-3w2214.html

Would they be better or worse (primarily reliability would be my concern) than an equivalent Rolec Autocharge?