Scoil Sinead Primary School

caniask86

Hi everyone,

I am just wondering have any of you heard about Scoil Sinead in Broombridge? it shares the same building with Educate together but it's a separate school basically it's non religious. My child isn't baptized and i choose this school because it non religious and no priorities to children who are baptized. It only started this September with Junior Infants but will be more classes next year.

smacl

Don't know anything about them, but their web page suggest they share similar enough values to educate together. From the opening paragraph of the about page there seems to be a specific focus towards meeting a wide range of needs such as those with autism, which is highly commendable. There was a few autistic kids in my daughters year in her ET primary, and I firmly believe it benefited everyone in the year to include them. Best bet is to talk to the principal to get a feel for what the school is like, maybe an open day too if one is available.

caniask86

smacl wrote: »

Don't know anything about them, but their web page suggest they share similar enough values to educate together. From the opening paragraph of the about page there seems to be a specific focus towards meeting a wide range of needs such as those with autism, which is highly commendable. There was a few autistic kids in my daughters year in her ET primary, and I firmly believe it benefited everyone in the year to include them. Best bet is to talk to the principal to get a feel for what the school is like, maybe an open day too if one is available.

yes they do believe in inclusion and not a separate unit. I think it does benefit everyone as there will be all different types at the workplace etc. I know they are mainstream aswell. Hopefully more schools like this will continue to open

smacl

caniask86 wrote: »

yes they do believe in inclusion and not a separate unit. I think it does benefit everyone as there will be all different types at the workplace etc. I know they are mainstream aswell. Hopefully more schools like this will continue to open

Hope it works out for you. The ET ethos is also very strongly one of inclusion, so if Sinead's doesn't come to pass for any reason I'd strongly recommend them as a second option. My admittedly limited experience as a parent was that having people with a range of needs in the classroom is that it made the whole group more resourceful out of necessity and cohesive as a result. I think it is fantastic that we're starting to think about people again in education rather than just grades and exams. I don't doubt this happens in some religious schools as well, but it is very much a central theme in Educate Together, and at a glance, this school to.

recedite

caniask86 wrote: »

it shares the same building with Educate together but it's a separate school basically it's non religious.

It says on the website that its "multi-denominational" so that's the same as ET.

It appears to be founded by people affected by/concerned with autism.
IMO all schools should be made as suitable as possible for students on the autistic spectrum.

As a general rule, I'm not in favour of special interest groups commandeering local schools which IMO should be open to everyone in that community.
Unfortunately though, the Dept. of Education procedure for selecting the patron of a new public school gives weighting in favour of "diversity" which they mistakenly seem to confuse with "divestment". As a result (all other things being equal) a novelty school will usually get priority over a RC school, or even an ET school. Because the latter are usually already represented in the area.

This passage from the website is like something from google translate...

In December 2016, we applied again for patronage of a primary school in Pelletstown Dublin 7 and were delighted to be awarded full patronage in May 2017. Both schools are schedule to open in September 2017. Our focus is providing an academic and practical learning environment using real life experiences not just from their immediate environment but also taking into account their wider world and place in it. We want our student to also be aware of all the options available to them for their future careers especially knowing and identify the small entrepreneur in their community.

I'm not normally a grammar nazi, but I think a higher standard is required when a new school patron is touting for business, and the right to educate the public using facilities provided by the state. They should make a decent effort to sound as if they are educated people themselves.

caniask86

recedite wrote: »

It says on the website that its "multi-denominational" so that's the same as ET.

It appears to be founded by people affected by/concerned with autism.
IMO all schools should be made as suitable as possible for students on the autistic spectrum.

As a general rule, I'm not in favour of special interest groups commandeering local schools which IMO should be open to everyone in that community.
Unfortunately though, the Dept. of Education procedure for selecting the patron of a new public school gives weighting in favour of "diversity" which they mistakenly seem to confuse with "divestment". As a result (all other things being equal) a novelty school will usually get priority over a RC school, or even an ET school. Because the latter are usually already represented in the area.



This passage from the website is like something from google translate...

I'm not normally a grammar nazi, but I think a higher standard is required when a new school patron is touting for business, and the right to educate the public using facilities provided by the state. They should make a decent effort to sound as if they are educated people themselves.

It is a mainstream school though not just Autism only. I think that's the whole point,no unit and all is included. It wouldn't work unless there are also mainstream children!

Hotblack Desiato

We need to be getting "patrons" out of the system, not adding more.

recedite

caniask86 wrote: »

It is a mainstream school though not just Autism only. I think that's the whole point,no unit and all is included. It wouldn't work unless there are also mainstream children!

I know that, but whats the point in having a special autism patron then?
Is there something in the drinking water around there that causes a higher than usual incidence of autism?

RCC will say the same thing about "their" schools; they are "not just for catholics".

Peregrinus

Autistic people do present special educational challenges, and it makes sense to have a school which is open to all, but which also makes a point of developing the expertise and experience needed to meet the particular needs of autistic people. I don't think there's a simple binary in which we either segregate particular students into schools which cater exclusively for them, or make no special provision for them in any school. There are intermediate approaches, such as designating particular schools which will have a particular focus on catering to the needs of a particular group, with the expectation that those schools will attract an above-average enrolment for that group.

I think comparison with Catholic schools is a bit apples-and-oranges. Catholic schools (Christian schools, Montessori schools, Gaelscoileanna, etc) attempt to provide an education informed by a particular philosophy to all their students. But a school that makes a particular accommodation for autistic students (students with a visual disability, students with a mobility disability, students for whom English is not a first language, etc) is doing something quite different.

caniask86

recedite wrote: »

I know that, but whats the point in having a special autism patron then?
Is there something in the drinking water around there that causes a higher than usual incidence of autism?

RCC will say the same thing about "their" schools; they are "not just for catholics".

Not everyone on the has a board is special autism agenda. There is one member on the board who happens to be founder of things related to Autism. Obviously the board is made up of many different people.

The school is mainstream but is all inclusive not just Autism.

caniask86

Peregrinus wrote: »

Autistic people do present special educational challenges, and it makes sense to have a school which is open to all, but which also makes a point of developing the expertise and experience needed to meet the particular needs of autistic people. I don't think there's a simple binary in which we either segregate particular students into schools which cater exclusively for them, or make no special provision for them in any school. There are intermediate approaches, such as designating particular schools which will have a particular focus on catering to the needs of a particular group, with the expectation that those schools will attract an above-average enrolment for that group.

I think comparison with Catholic schools is a bit apples-and-oranges. Catholic schools (Christian schools, Montessori schools, Gaelscoileanna, etc) attempt to provide an education informed by a particular philosophy to all their students. But a school that makes a particular accommodation for autistic students (students with a visual disability, students with a mobility disability, students for whom English is not a first language, etc) is doing something quite different.

I think you are missing the point that Autism is hug spectrum and not every child on the spectrum require 'special' education etc. I think the whole point of Scoil Sinead is taking away the stigma of special needs and that is why it is a mainstream school.

Peregrinus

I think you may be missing my point, caniask, or maybe I'm just not putting it clearly enough. I'm disagreeing with recedite and agreeing with you; I think there's merit in having schools which are open to all and which provide mainstream education, but which also make a point of catering to the particular educational needs of particular groups, like people on the autism spectrum. As you say, not everyone on the spectrum will require much, or sometimes any, special educational provision, but they'll all benefit from being at a school which knows what special provision can do, is able to provide it, and is able to assess whether they would benefit from it.

recedite

Peregrinus wrote: »

I think comparison with Catholic schools is a bit apples-and-oranges.

Perhaps a comparison with CoI schools makes more sense then, it being a minority interest.
The CoI "won" the patronage of a new state funded, state owned secondary school in Greystones in recent years. It seems unlikely that the majority of the school population will be CoI, unless there was some serious religious discrimination going on (which is against the terms of the patronage agreement) and also people were willing to travel a very long distance from outside the area to attend the school.
What benefit is this school to a CoI family living in Kerry?

Similarly what benefit is an autistic friendly school in Lucan to an autistic child in living in Kerry?

These "special interest" minority groups should concentrate on lobbying to make sure that all publicly funded state schools are made suitable for their group. Not on trying to commandeer one or two specific schools for themselves.
IMO that just gives an excuse for the lack of divestment of existing schools that we have seen. "Sure aren't we catering for minorities already, we have this or that school given over to them already"

Peregrinus

recedite wrote: »

Perhaps a comparison with CoI schools makes more sense then, it being a minority interest.
The CoI "won" the patronage of a new state funded, state owned secondary school in Greystones in recent years. It seems unlikely that the majority of the school population will be CoI, unless there was some serious religious discrimination going on (which is against the terms of the patronage agreement) and also people were willing to travel a very long distance from outside the area to attend the school.
What benefit is this school to a CoI family living in Kerry?

Similarly what benefit is an autistic friendly school in Lucan to an autistic child in living in Kerry?

In both cases the answer is "none", at least directly. But (sticking with the autistic student to simplify the discussion) the school in Lucan is plainly of benefit to people on the autistic spectrum living in a fairly wide part of West Dublin, and if we can provide this benefit to them why should we not provide it, purely because it is impractical to provide it also in more sparsely populated areas?

If we can't provide a specialist oncology unit in every hospital in the country, should we refuse to provide it in any hospital? If we can't provide a veterinary faculty in every university, should be refuse to provide one in any university? If it's not possible for every school in the country to offer Leaving Cert Arabic, Leaving Cert Construction Studies or Leaving Cert Hebrew Studies, must it follow that none of them can? Sure, the student who wants to take Construction Studies but finds that it isn't offered at any school near to him will be pissed off, but I don't see that his position will be in any way improved if students in other parts of the country are also unable to take the course.

One of the advantages of metropolitan living is precisely the opportunity for specialism, for diversity and for choice. It may be unfortunate that there is less opportunity for this in Killorglin, but Killorglin offers many other advantages and, in any case, would not benefit from a rule that all schools in Dublin and Cork must be organised as though they were in Killorglin.

recedite

The person who attends a specialist oncology unit is willing to travel a long distance to it, because unlike a secondary school, they will not be attending on a daily basis for 6 years.

The OP is at pains to point out that this patron wants it to be "a mainstream school" not a specialist autism school. So a comparison with a local GP would be more apt. We expect them to be willing and fairly competent at treating everyone.

But lets suppose the advantages of metropolitan living and the largesse of the taxpayer allowed for numerous schools locally. Suppose 10% of the population were atheists, does this mean that 10% of the schools should devote their religion classes to mocking religion, while making the religious students sit at the back of the class with their preferred holy book?

Another 80% of schools could be RC schools, with the non-RC pupils sitting at the back.
But what of the atheists who were also autistic, which school should they attend? It becomes ludicrous :pac:
Instead of everybody being satisfied, its more likely only a few would be.

Peregrinus

The advantage of having a number of mainstream schools with a specialist unit that caters to students on the autistic spectrum is that at least some parents of children on the autistic spectrum will have a choice; they can send their child to a school with such a unit, or to a school without such a unit, according to what they think is best for their child. Providing no specialist units deprives everyone of that choice, without providing (so far as I can see) any compensating advantage to anyone.

smacl

Peregrinus wrote: »

The advantage of having a number of mainstream schools with a specialist unit that caters to students on the autistic spectrum is that at least some parents of children on the autistic spectrum will have a choice; they can send their child to a school with such a unit, or to a school without such a unit, according to what they think is best for their child. Providing no specialist units deprives everyone of that choice, without providing (so far as I can see) any compensating advantage to anyone.

Worth remembering that both schools are drawing from the same limited education resource, so that having a specialist school in one area could well mean fewer funds for SNAa in other schools. Those SNAs would be required to accommodate children with various special needs so your choice may not actually exist. It is the sad truth that by providing special accommodation for one group, in a budget constrained environment, you are effectively depriving another group. The reason many schools get funding for SNAs is because they are needed to support those with special needs, even then the funding is extremely difficult to come by. The question we need to ask is how best to deploy limited resources in this situation.

Peregrinus

Well, a couple of thoughts:

1. First, if you make no special accommodation for autistic students at any school, you're spreading your resources as thinly as you can, which is likely to minimise what you can acheive with them. You may be sacficing efficiency and effectiveness to a notion of fairness, and it may not even be a particularly realistic notion. The reality is that without the specialist unist there will probably be no resources at all specifically earmarked for autistic students - schools will simply be expected to accommodate them with no additional support. Whereas if you have a specialist unit in at least one school, there's going to be a budget allocation for that. Close the unit, and the allocation disappears. The money may well be spread across all other schools, but it won't follow that it will be used to increase provision for autistic students.

2. Your assumption that there's a fixed pool of money may not be quite right. The daughter of friends of mine, who has both physical and learning disabilities, attends a mainstream school which includes an education support unit aimed at meeting the needs of students with special needs, enabling them to remain in a mainstream school and to maximise the benefits they derive from it. (This is in Western Australia.) A number of schools have such units, but most do not. The units are part-funded by the government department responsible for disability matters. (The rest of the funding comes from the education department.) So in the right circumstances, by setting up specialist units you can access funding that couldn't otherwise be accessed. This is particularly clear where the funding is coming from a different source but, actually, it can be true even if that's not the case.

3. I don't think education funding (or the funding of any other public service) is simply a case of "this is how much money we have - let's divide it up equally (or fairly)". If you're running a programme which is producing good outcomes, you're well positioned to press for a greater share of funding in the periodic budgetary hunger games in which funds are allocated. So if specialist units do in fact mean that a greater proportion of autistic students graduate from high school/go on to college/whatever your metric is (note that I'm not assuming that they do, but merely saying if they do) then the good results achieved can be used to support a case for funding for more specialist units.

In short, I agree with you that the question is how best to deploy limited resources. But (a) I don't assume that the best way to deploy them is to spread them equally across all schools. (In the specific case of autism I rather doubt that it is, but I'm no expert.) And (b) one of the consequences of deploying them well is that, in the future, the funds may become slightly less limited (and vice versa, of course).

caniask86

Can I just point out that Scoil Sinead Pelletstown which is located in Cabra is different from Scoil Sinead Patron. Scoil Sinead Pelletstown is a non religious school. It has no ASD unit and it is mainstream. They believe in intergrating everybody regardless of background/religion/ etc.

I can see how it's confusing with The Patron Site. I think there is also a secondary school in Griffen College?

My experience applying for schools for my son was that they said that we didn't need a baptism cert but yet we couldn't find any places. Also I found when we went to the schools you couldn't escape religion. I don't understand why Religion isn't kept separate from School?

Hotblack Desiato

What is the point of another patron duplicating what ET do? The stupidity of Dept Ed policy has led to this.

smacl

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

What is the point of another patron duplicating what ET do? The stupidity of Dept Ed policy has led to this.

Stupidity or complicity?

Peregrinus

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

What is the point of another patron duplicating what ET do? The stupidity of Dept Ed policy has led to this.

The Dept can only award patronage to a body which tenders for it. Did ET tender for the patronage of this school?