DART fine appeal?

BenMc

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Xterminator

Hi Op

do you not consider the way you (an adult) were dealt with as a natural consequence of your actions? It was your responsibility to have the correct ticket. Adding in the fact you lied about your age, the balance of probability is that you were aware your ticket was not valid.

OP do you plan to make any acknowledgment of your own responsibility in the situation?

here is how you can follow up on the customer care aspect of how you were dealt with.



Putting Things Right

We welcome any comments and suggestions that you have about improving our service. If you were not happy about any part of our service, we would like to know about it.

Please contact us via our website. Alternatively, you can write to Customer Care, Connolly Station, Amiens Street, Dublin 1. D01 V6V6. or phone us at (01)8366 222 (or +353 1 8366 222 from outside the Republic of Ireland) Mon-Fri. 0830- 18.00hrs.

When you contact Customer Care to make a query or complaint, please include as much information as possible. Include information such as:

Date and time of travel
Where you were leaving from and travelling to
Your reservation number for online tickets
Your Leap card number if necessary
Your phone number in case we need more information

goingnowhere

Damn lucky you were not detained on the spot and brought to the local cop shop

You lied to an authorised officer of Irish Rail, giving false information is an offense. At that point any sympathy goes out the window. That alone could justify a 1000 euro fine. At this point there was no discussion Irish Rail had established reasonable cause, someone over 16 with a under 16 leap card who can't figure out how old they are.

You are obliged to give your name and address in law, you refused and correctly told failure to do so would result in 1000 euro fine and a trip to the garda station.

The card is owned by the National Transport Authority and any agent of the NTA can retain the card if there is any question as to its use/misuse, so nothing wrong here its there card not yours.

Per Irish Rail procedures a member of staff checking tickets MUST provide their name or ID number, they did so no issue.

The documentation about the child 16-18 leap card could not have been clearer https://about.leapcard.ie/about/card-ticket-types/child-leap-card If you managed to get into College, hard to understand why you could not manage 10 seconds in google.

Marty Bird

OP you lied about your age you had the wrong leap card, pay the fine and move on.

BenMc

goingnowhere wrote: »

Damn lucky you were not detained on the spot and brought to the local cop shop

You lied to an authorised officer of Irish Rail, giving false information is an offense. At that point any sympathy goes out the window. That alone could justify a 1000 euro fine. At this point there was no discussion Irish Rail had established reasonable cause, someone over 16 with a under 16 leap card who can't figure out how old they are.

You are obliged to give your name and address in law, you refused and correctly told failure to do so would result in 1000 euro fine and a trip to the garda station.

The card is owned by the National Transport Authority and any agent of the NTA can retain the card if there is any question as to its use/misuse, so nothing wrong here its there card not yours.

Per Irish Rail procedures a member of staff checking tickets MUST provide their name or ID number, they did so no issue.

The documentation about the child 16-18 leap card could not have been clearer https://about.leapcard.ie/about/card-ticket-types/child-leap-card If you managed to get into College, hard to understand why you could not manage 10 seconds in google.

Hi,

I do not understand how I was lucky to not be detained, quite frankly. But to each their own I suppose.

I acknowledged the fact that I gave him the incorrect age and rectified this with the officer myself. And as I said, it was a genuine mistake. If I were aware of the 16-18 year old bracket distinction in child leap cards at the time, and having the wrong ticket, surely I would've said that I was 15 instead of 17 as 17 still puts me in the wrong.

And to highlight, I didn't refuse to give any information. I was compliant. There were however delays in answering due to concerns from myself as to why the fine was being issued as any reasonable person who believes they are in fact innocent would do (I do realise now that I wasn't in fact innocent)

I understand that, after reading their terms and conditions, the card is their property. Do you who the on the card belongs to Irish Rail or myself?

And the argument that I should've been capable enough to research the leap card online is something that I agree with. As an adult I am well able to do so, but my issue lies in the fact that two representatives of Transport for Ireland informed me that I could use the card I had, specifically after showing one of them it. Is it wrong to feel hard done by in this sense? (And after researching Transport for Ireland's T&Cs there is a disclaimer stating any information may or may not be correct; so there goes that argument)

Thanks for the response!

BenMc

Xterminator wrote: »

Hi Op

do you not consider the way you (an adult) were dealt with as a natural consequence of your actions? It was your responsibility to have the correct ticket. Adding in the fact you lied about your age, the balance of probability is that you were aware your ticket was not valid.

OP do you plan to make any acknowledgment of your own responsibility in the situation?

here is how you can follow up on the customer care aspect of how you were dealt with.

Putting Things Right

We welcome any comments and suggestions that you have about improving our service. If you were not happy about any part of our service, we would like to know about it.

Please contact us via our website. Alternatively, you can write to Customer Care, Connolly Station, Amiens Street, Dublin 1. D01 V6V6. or phone us at (01)8366 222 (or +353 1 8366 222 from outside the Republic of Ireland) Mon-Fri. 0830- 18.00hrs.

When you contact Customer Care to make a query or complaint, please include as much information as possible. Include information such as:

Date and time of travel
Where you were leaving from and travelling to
Your reservation number for online tickets
Your Leap card number if necessary
Your phone number in case we need more information

Hi,

I want to clear this up: I did not intend to cheat the Irish Rail out of a fare. I scanned my leap card showing my intent to pay my fare. And I did in fact make a genuine mistake relating to my age. This can be clarified by the fact that I said I was 17; which leaves me no better off than me being 18. If I was in fact trying to scam Irish Rail and was aware of what I was doing would I not have said I was 15? Like I understand where you are coming from and how sketchy the situation appears but I can assure you that I am being genuine here.

Also I'm sorry if I didn't make it clear but I do realise that I was in fact in the wrong and that "I understand the issue with the card I had and I am in the process of sorting that out". However I do have an issue with being misinformed with Transport for Ireland and then being punished for applying said information.

And I fully intend to follow up on addressing the manner with which I was dealt with, so thank you for the extra information!

Thank you for the response and feel free to leave any other comments!:)

BenMc

Thanks for the responses, I'm starting to realise that I am not as innocent as I was making myself out to be in my head. I do, however, still want to appeal the fine because of the fact it would be such a financial burden and I do feel there was some negligence/ vicarious liability on Transport for Ireland's part. Although they have a disclaimer, do you think Irish Rail would accept that issue for grounds of an appeal? Are there any ways to possibly reduce this?

Tell me how

BenMc wrote: »

Thanks for the responses, I'm starting to realise that I am not as innocent as I was making myself out to be in my head. I do, however, still want to appeal the fine because of the fact it would be such a financial burden and I do feel there was some negligence/ vicarious liability on Transport for Ireland's part. Although they have a disclaimer, do you think Irish Rail would accept that issue for grounds of an appeal? Are there any ways to possibly reduce this?

You seem fairly level headed OP and that it was not your intent to use the card incorrectly.
However, you acknowledge yourself that you were in the wrong, take it as part of life's learning curve. Experiences like this are as important as what you'll learn in TCD.
The quicker you accept it and put it out of your head, the less stress it will cause you in thinking about it.

Submit an appeal if you wish but don't become too invested in it being successful. Ask work for some hours maybe to lessen the impact on your studies if you can.

Infini

It actually says 5-15 ON the leap card. In black and white. You didnt have the right card and got fined so you have to pay up.

BenMc

Infini wrote: »

It actually says 5-15 ON the leap card. In black and white. You didnt have the right card and got fined so you have to pay up.

It actually doesn't on all cards. I'm not sure if it's down to getting my card a couple of years ago or some other reason but the card I was issued simply said "child" in green down the bottom right corner. Thus it's not quite as black and white as you make it out to be.

Cheers for the input though!

BenMc

Tell me how wrote: »

You seem fairly level headed OP and that it was not your intent to use the card incorrectly.
However, you acknowledge yourself that you were in the wrong, take it as part of life's learning curve. Experiences like this are as important as what you'll learn in TCD.
The quicker you accept it and put it out of your head, the less stress it will cause you in thinking about it.

Submit an appeal if you wish but don't become too invested in it being successful. Ask work for some hours maybe to lessen the impact on your studies if you can.

Thanks for your response. I was even starting to come to that conclusion myself in that I should just take it on the chin, acknowledge my mistake (and learn from it) and move on.

And I'll give asking work for some more hours a shot but I wouldn't hold out hope..:)

Thanks again!

GM228

OP, judging by your post I'm assuming you are studying or at least have an understanding of the law, so I'll deal with your post on those points alone.

BenMc wrote: »

So now I'm left with the appeals process which is my last chance to turn this situation around. I would be appealing on the grounds of:

1. Vicarious liability of the company as a result of misinformation being given at a Transport for Ireland and Iarnrod Eireann stand at college.

Do you understand what "vicarious liability" is and when it applies? I don't think you do.

It applies to actions of tort (personal injury for example) and would require negligence for example before it becomes possible to apply.

Vicarious liability does not apply to a criminal elemant - with the exception perhaps to common law corporate manslaughter.

When it does apply in actions of tort it only applies where there is an element of control, i.e an employer-employee relationship and whilst in the course of their duties, TII does not have such a relationship with IE, and IE staff helping out in such a presentation may not satisfy a course of their duties test either.

BenMc wrote: »

2. Lack of mens rea I. E. lack of intent to evade the fair as at the time I didn't perceive my actions as against any regulations.

Without going into too much detail it is possible to prove intent using foresight and recklessness for example as evidence of intent without the need to show you actually did something on purpose, but that's not really relevant - see next part.

BenMc wrote: »

3. The fine issued to me is for breaching the Railway Safety Act 2005 Section 132 :

"132.—(1) Every passenger of a railway undertaking shall, on request by an officer or employee of a railway undertaking, produce, and if so requested, deliver up to the officer or employee a ticket showing that his or her fare is paid and, if the fare has not been paid, shall upon request—

(a) pay, to the officer or employee—

(i) his or her fare from the place where he or she started the journey by railway, or

(ii) such other fare for non-payment of a fare as fixed by the undertaking,

as the officer or employee decides, or

(b) give the officer or employee his or her name and address.

(2) A passenger who fails—

(a) to comply with a request undersubsection (1) to deliver up a ticket,

(b) to pay the fare required undersubsection (1)(a), or

(c) to give his or her name and address, if requested undersubsection (1)(b),

is guilty of an offence.

(3) A passenger who—

(a) travels or attempts to travel on a railway of a railway undertaking without having previously paid his or her fare, and with intent to avoid such payment,

(b) having paid his or her fare for a certain distance, knowingly and wilfully proceeds by train beyond that distance without previously paying the additional fare for the additional distance, and with intent to avoid such payment, or

(c) having failed to pay his or her fare, gives in reply to a request by an officer or employee of a railway undertaking a false or misleading name or address,

is guilty of an offence.

(4) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding €1,000.

(5) The liability of an offender to a penalty under this section does not prejudice the recovery of any fare payable by him or her."

None of which apply to my situation and thus render the fine invalid.

S132 (3) requires mens rea, however S132 (2) is a strict liability offence and as such having a guilty mind is irrelevant.

BenMc wrote: »

4. Referring to a mistake in Irish law is normally summed up in "ignorantia facti excusat; ignorantia juris no excusat" or in other words; a mistake of fact will be excused, while a mistake of law will not be excused. Since no Irish law was broken and merely the exact rule's of Irish Rail weren't followed then in a court of Irish law the fine would be excused.

As per above, in relation to a strict liability offence the defence of mistake of fact can't apply.