Transphobia in society

deirdre_dub · 30-09-2017 03:28PM #1

They always seem to wait until you are alone, preferably carrying heavy shopping, and they (usually) wait until you've passed them. The most recent incident was when I was walking home with such an amount of shopping. I saw him (a regular mainstream Irish caucasian guy, maybe 14 years old) on the other side of the road, and I immediately knew he wanted to boost his ego at my expense. And so it happened - just before our paths took us out of sight of each other, I could hear a yell behind me "are you a man or a woman"?

Thing is - as a 48 year old trans woman, I remember a time I could have witnessed such an incident, and I would have supported the person doing the shouting. Such was the nature of the society I was living in at the time. And, frankly, such is my nature as a social being to compromise core values in order to "fit in". In my old age I'm getting better at not doing that.

I've noticed that the people who distribute the "Alive!" Catholic right-wing rag seem to always make sure I get a copy, in spite of the fact that I've asked them not to. The transphobia in that rag, when it appears, is in-your-face and brutal. Catholicism has, in my opinion, an awful lot to answer for in our country. Catholicism is, as far as I can see, a fundamentally transphobic culture. Having said that, one of my good friends is an absolute committed catholic. We've collaborated on a number of video projects, and have had an absolute blast while doing so. But more than that, every now and then, I get a phone call from her where she's venting about work, family etc, and of course I respond in kind

. I'm able, as the situation arises, to talk to her about being trans, and about transphobia, and I've never witnessed anything other than the deepest respect from her. I'm also able to sit silently, and respectfully, as she says a quick prayer to her Catholic God as the odd hairy situation arises (e.g. driving behind someone who is weaving). Whereas catholicism is a transphobic culture, my deeply catholic friend most decidedly isn't, and I will defend her against anyone who says she is. Just because a culture is something, doesn't mean that everyone in that culture is that thing too.

None of it is black-and-white. I've been approached by a guy (who I'm guessing is bisexual and struggling with it) basically looking for sex. That guy is a traveller. I think he needs a conversation about the transphobic culture of the travelling community more than I do.

Or, have we reached the dangerous stage where we can only speak of transphobia in mainstream culture? Not that I'm not aware of the dangers of speaking ill of a marginalised and misrepresented community...

I'm a member of such a community, after all. I've tried to tell uncomfortable truths about "my" community. The response I've received is such that I can no longer psychologically consider myself to be such a member, which is a large part of the reason why you haven't seen me on this forum for so long.

mr.anonymous · 30-09-2017 05:17PM

Being authentic with someone who would otherwise be trans or homophobic makes an asset to the lgbt and specifically the trans community. The inability of that teenager to see you as a person is mostly on him anyway...

JackTaylorFan · 30-09-2017 07:13PM

Hi OP

I posted something along the same lines not a week ago here (would not be surprised if read my post and were prompted to write this -but perhaps I give myself too much credit). Anyways, that thread was closed - not surprisingly - as it was to do with something you touched upon here -allbeit briefly - that you can't even mention in certain PC circles. Anyways, it's been made crystal clear to me, that this is not the forum for such a discussion either, so I'll move on...

And to the question of Catholicism and its role in this transphobia you mentioned - and which I experience on an almost daily basis from so-called people with faith: well, I wonder: does it influence attitudes - or simply enable an inherent bigotry in less enlightened people? Faith definttely has been a convenient excuse for a multitude of sins. And where does religion have its greatest level of influence? With the poor and the uneducated in society as it always has.

Another obvious observation: so, here's the funny thing: in Ireland, Catholicism is one of those 'mainstream" things you can have a pop at, you can criticize it without being shouted down in liberal, PC circles. But say the same thing about a faith that bears an equal responsibility for spreading intolerance and phobias around the world and you are called a bigot by these same people who support you when you call out the Catjholic church - and why? Because here - though one of the largest religions in the world - this other faith is seen as a qualifier for minority status in Ireland. And so again, as with the community I alluded to in my own thread, the discussion can't even be had...

Well, that's my own prejudices, I guess.

Sorry, you've had another **** experience, OP. I'd say it gets better.. But we both know it doesn't...

baby and crumble · 03-10-2017 08:00PM

TBH I have an issue with anyone tarring a whole group of people with one brush.

Saying "all travellers are transphobic" or "all catholics are homophobic" is untrue and as bad as saying "all gay people are paedophiles".

Deirdre, and Jack, I'm sorry you're both experiencing such negative attitudes. What are the things you need to help with that?

I don't identify as strictly trans but I also am coming to realise that I am not cisgender either- I don't know what that means but I do know I get asked those same questions; am I a man or a woman? Should I really be in this toilet? I don't think this is the right changing room for you... It's awful but I also don't think it's accurate to say "all changing room attendants are homophobic/transphobic".

Vojera · 03-10-2017 08:23PM

I'm pretty dismayed by the amount of transphobia out there, and I'm a (reasonably) feminine cisgender woman, so it's not like I have cause to hear about it that much.

I know people who are 100% open and supportive of gay rights but who refuse to acknowledge that being transgender is anything other than attention-seeking mental illness (citing Caitlin Jenner and tumblr as their sources). It hurts and shocks me to hear people be so close-minded. I always refute it when I hear it and try to have a discussion, but there seems to be a wall there. I imagine that, like how homophobia isn't as ingrained as it once was, it'll dissipate with time, but that's not much consolation to those who have to deal with it now.

It just gets to me that people who can be so open in one way can be so bitterly close-minded in another.

JackTaylorFan · 03-10-2017 08:36PM

baby and crumble wrote: »

Deirdre, and Jack, I'm sorry you're both experiencing such negative attitudes. What are the things you need to help with that?

Being allowed to have an open and frank discussion about the problematic transphobic - and to a lesser but still significant degree, homophobic - attitudes of ethnic minorities; a discussion about the institutionalized bigotry that pervades these communities against transpeople - especially transwomen - might serve some purpose - if only to highlight, it is indeed a problem - instead of burying heads in sand.

baby and crumble wrote: »

Saying "all travellers are transphobic" or "all catholics are homophobic" is untrue and as bad as saying "all gay people are paedophiles"

This argument doesn't hold either. Firstly, I never said all travelers are transphobic. I just so happened to say, there is a huge problem within that community - and if you speak out about it, you are shouted down. It is not a coincidence, that almost every incident of transphobic abuse I have endured
in the past 3 years living back home has come from a member of that community. But again, in liberal circles, you can't even broach the topic.

baby and crumble wrote: »

I don't identify as strictly trans but I also am coming to realise that I am not cisgender either- I don't know what that means but I do know I get asked those same questions; am I a man or a woman? Should I really be in this toilet? I don't think this is the right changing room for you... It's awful but I also don't think it's accurate to say "all changing room attendants are homophobic/transphobic".

Have you ever been verbally abused, threatened with a "queer baiting" actually punched in the face and spat on? Probably not. I'm not talking about casual transphobia from a dressing room assistant.

JackTaylorFan · 03-10-2017 08:38PM

Vojera wrote: »

I'm pretty dismayed by the amount of transphobia out there, and I'm a (reasonably) feminine cisgender woman, so it's not like I have cause to hear about it that much.

I know people who are 100% open and supportive of gay rights but who refuse to acknowledge that being transgender is anything other than attention-seeking mental illness (citing Caitlin Jenner and tumblr as their sources). It hurts and shocks me to hear people be so close-minded. I always refute it when I hear it and try to have a discussion, but there seems to be a wall there. I imagine that, like how homophobia isn't as ingrained as it once was, it'll dissipate with time, but that's not much consolation to those who have to deal with it now.

It just gets to me that people who can be so open in one way can be so bitterly close-minded in another.

Caitlin Jenner is the worst thing to happen to trans rights in the last decade...

Okay, maybe an over-exaggeration there... but she is an awful, self-appointed ambassador

Annasopra · 03-10-2017 08:49PM

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

Being allowed to have an open and frank discussion about the problematic transphobic - and to a lesser but still significant degree, homophobic - attitudes of ethnic minorities; a discussion about the institutionalized bigotry that pervades these communities against transpeople - especially transwomen - might serve some purpose - if only to highlight, it is indeed a problem - instead of burying heads in sand.

This argument doesn't hold either. Firstly, I never said all travelers are transphobic. I just so happened to say, there is a huge problem within that community - and if you speak out about it, you are shouted down. It is not a coincidence, that almost every incident of transphobic abuse I have endured
in the past 3 years living back home has come from a member of that community. But again, in liberal circles, you can't even broach the topic.

Have you ever been verbally abused, threatened with a "queer baiting" actually punched in the face and spat on? Probably not. I'm not talking about casual transphobia from a dressing room assistant.

I think it is very odd to divide people into trans and ethnic minority and make this huge assumption that an ethnic minority person or indeed traveller cant be trans or vice versa.

JackTaylorFan · 03-10-2017 08:55PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I think it is very odd to divide people into trans and ethnic minority and make this huge assumption that an ethnic minority person or indeed traveller cant be trans or vice versa.

Again, I never said that. You are the one making assumptions here, guy, to twist the argument.

I am aware of gay travelers - and I am sure there is probably some unfortunate enough to be trans also - I've never met any of them, or heard of anyone coming out as trans from the traveling community, but I suspect they exist... And I am sure if they did come out in that environment, they would face even more bigotry than I ever have from that community. Stop being so naive.

Bonavox · 03-10-2017 08:57PM

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

This argument doesn't hold either. Firstly, I never said all travelers are transphobic. I just so happened to say, there is a huge problem within that community - and if you speak out about it, you are shouted down.

To be fair you didn't say all travellers are transphobic, you said all transphobia is from travellers. Taken from your own thread:

And 10 times out of 10 - not 9 - it's from members of the local Travelling Community.

JackTaylorFan · 03-10-2017 08:59PM

Bonavox wrote: »

To be fair you didn't say all travellers are transphobic, you said all transphobia is from travellers. Taken from your own thread:

I remember you - you're the guy who got banned for deliberately misgendering me in a previous thread.

Also, yes, in my area - it is 10 times out of 10 from that community. Deal with it. I know I have to.

Annasopra · 03-10-2017 09:00PM

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

Again, I never said that. You are the one making assumptions here, guy, to twist the argument.

I am aware of gay travelers - and I am sure there is probably some unfortunate enough to be trans also - I've never met any of them, or heard of anyone coming out as trans from the traveling community, but I suspect they exist... And I am sure if they did come out in that environment, they would face even more bigotry than I ever have from that community. Stop being so naive.

What makes you so sure of your assumptions that trans travellers would be treated worse than than trans cis people? Have you an actusl basis for that assumption?

JackTaylorFan · 03-10-2017 09:04PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

What makes you so sure of your assumptions that trans travellers would be treated worse than than trans cis people? Have you an actusl basis for that assumption?

Oh please...

Did you seriously just fall off the last milk float?

The kind of hyper masculine environment; the ignorance and lack of education on this subject, of course it would be hostile.

Also, what's a "trans cis" people? - you seem confused.

Annasopra · 03-10-2017 09:07PM

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

Oh please...

Did you seriously just fall off the last milk float?

The kind of hyper masculine environment; the ignorance and lack of education on this subject, of course it would be hostile.

Also, what's a "trans cis" people? - you seem confused.

Right ok so there is pretty much nothing to your assumptions other than jumping to your own conclusions.

JackTaylorFan · 03-10-2017 09:08PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Right ok so there is pretty much nothing to your assumptions other than jumping to your own conclusions.

A lifetime of experience, mate. Deal with it.

baby and crumble · 03-10-2017 09:09PM

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

Have you ever been verbally abused, threatened with a "queer baiting" actually punched in the face and spat on? Probably not. I'm not talking about casual transphobia from a dressing room assistant.

Thankfully I've never been physically assaulted, but I'm certainly not getting into a "who's the worst off" argument with you, because it's not helpful. I'm not justifying the transphobia I have experienced- and whether I specifically identify as trans or not doesn't make it not transphobia.

I don't think we're ever going to see eye to eye on this or related topics. I think moaning about travellers/ethnic minorities/ religious minorities on here isn't solving anything and is just exacerbating the issue.

Annasopra · 03-10-2017 09:10PM

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

A lifetime of experience, mate. Deal with it.

But you dont have any experience of internal dynamics of the travelling community at all.

JackTaylorFan · 03-10-2017 09:13PM

baby and crumble wrote: »

I think moaning about travellers/ethnic minorities/ religious minorities on here isn't solving anything and is just exacerbating the issue.

Please don't condescend and belittle me and my experience, by using words like "moaning" and conflating an incident in a dressing room with moments of pure hatred - I have never been confronted by a sales assistant in a changing room or toilet, and I am not "moaning". I am saying something that needs to be said, and just 'cause you don;t understand it, doesn't mean it's not a problem.

JackTaylorFan · 03-10-2017 09:14PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

But you dont have any experience of internal dynamics of the travelling community at all.

I have lived most my life directly across the way from an illegal halting site. But no, I couldn't possibly have any understanding (sarcasm implied)...

baby and crumble · 03-10-2017 09:16PM

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

Please don't condescend and belittle me and my experience, by using words like "moaning" and conflating an incident in a dressing room with moments of pure hatred - I have never been confronted by a sales assistant in a changing room or toilet, and I am not "moaning". I am saying something that needs to be said, and just 'cause you don;t understand it, doesn't mean it's not a problem.

Don't condescend and belittle ME and MY experience by assuming just because I have been lucky enough not to have been physically assaulted (although I've been threatened with it) that I don't understand what you're talking about.

I understand very much what you're saying, and I disagree with you. Deal with it.

Professor Moriarty · 03-10-2017 09:17PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

But you dont have any experience of internal dynamics of the travelling community at all.

I don't understand. What has that got to do with their direct lived experience?

JackTaylorFan · 03-10-2017 09:18PM

baby and crumble wrote: »

Don't condescend and belittle ME and MY experience by assuming just because I have been lucky enough not to have been physically assaulted (although I've been threatened with it) that I don't understand what you're talking about.

I understand very much what you're saying, and I disagree with you. Deal with it.

Sorry, but referring to my actions as "moaning" is belittling, Honey.

Annasopra · 03-10-2017 09:19PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I don't understand. What has that got to do with their direct lived experience?

Sorry you have lost me. JTF made an assertion out of nowhere that trans people from the travelling community would be treated worse by the travelling community than settled trans people.

baby and crumble · 03-10-2017 09:21PM

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

Sorry, but referring to my actions as "moaning" is belittling, Honey.

And calling me 'Honey' isn't?

You know what? I can't be arsed with this argument. I've better things to be doing with my time, frankly.

JackTaylorFan · 03-10-2017 09:22PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Sorry you have lost me. JTF made an assertion out of nowhere that trans people from the travelling community would be treated worse by the travelling community than settled trans people.

Yes, and it is inherently true, by the fact that their community has a systemic transphobic attitude. Again, that is not to say all travelers are transphobic but it is a huge problem - far greater than the overall percentage of the population.

JackTaylorFan · 03-10-2017 09:23PM

baby and crumble wrote: »

And calling me 'Honey' isn't?

Good, you do get how language works - I was worried for a mo'

Bonavox · 03-10-2017 09:24PM

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

I remember you - you're the guy who got banned for deliberately misgendering me in a previous thread.

Also, yes, in my area - it is 10 times out of 10 from that community. Deal with it. I know I have to.

I think you'll find deliberate is the wrong word to use there. It seems like you just want to see the worst in people in your posts.

Annasopra · 03-10-2017 09:30PM

Thread closed. It seems this discussion is just being used to lash out. Also it goes against the the ethos of the forum of equality and inclusiveness by pretty much lashing out at travellers without acknowledging the hard work done by lgbt traveller groups. This forum does not condone bigotry towards any group.

Transphobia in society

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