Medtronic offering Engineering Jobs for Women Only!!

bfa1509 · 29-09-2017 2:54pm #1

Medtronic are now offering a return to work program for women engineers who have been out of work for up to 4 years:

https://ie.linkedin.com/jobs/view/414943613

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is this not one of the most sexist things a company could ever do?

ratracer · 29-09-2017 2:56pm

Yes, but don't you know that sexism only counts if it's against females....

bfa1509 · 29-09-2017 2:58pm

ratracer wrote: »

Yes, but don't you know that sexism only counts if it's against females....

Ah ok. So it's the same as how racism only applies to blacks?

Diziet · 29-09-2017 3:01pm

It's a specific program for a specific purpose (which is presumably to reach an under-utilised talent pool). Do you have a problem with graduate programs? They also reach out to a specific talent pool.

Given the vast difficulty in employment for women who have been out of the workforce, this is creating equality, not the reverse.

bobbysands81 · 29-09-2017 3:08pm

Diziet wrote: »

It's a specific program for a specific purpose (which is presumably to reach an under-utilised talent pool). Do you have a problem with graduate programs? They also reach out to a specific talent pool.

Given the vast difficulty in employment for women who have been out of the workforce, this is creating equality, not the reverse.

Positive discrimination is still discrimination.

Preventing someone from applying for a job because of their sex is sexism, regardless of the reasons behind it.

bfa1509 · 29-09-2017 3:09pm

Diziet wrote: »

It's a specific program for a specific purpose (which is presumably to reach an under-utilised talent pool). Do you have a problem with graduate programs? They also reach out to a specific talent pool.

Given the vast difficulty in employment for women who have been out of the workforce, this is creating equality, not the reverse.

This is the most ridiculous thing I have heard in a while. I have no problem with Graduate programs as they aim to tackle youth unemployment. This job on the other hand discriminates based on gender. How is this ok?

Also, since when have women had more difficulty than men getting back into the workforce? Women are almost at full employment in ireland (6%) where as 1 in 5 men are unemployed. How come they don't introduce a return to employment program for men in Nursing and Teaching, the careers in which women overwhelmingly dominate?

Adamocovic · 29-09-2017 3:13pm

It's a bit bizarre seeing it but, as a male Engineer I'm not offended by it at all.

Engineering is a predominately male profession, so it appears they are doing this create more diversity in the workplace and possibly promote it to more women who are thinking of studying it. Something I'm all for. I'm sure in other industries that are more female dominated there are postings for positions looking for male applicants only (Nursing springs to mind).

I will admit that I find the whole advert a bit odd. Looking for people who have specifically been out of work for a certain amount of time. Perhaps it's some sort of program they have but honestly I don't know much about it.

Anyway, not going to feign some outrage over it.

bfa1509 · 29-09-2017 3:19pm

Adamocovic wrote: »

It's a bit bizarre seeing it but, as a male Engineer I'm not offended by it at all.

Engineering is a predominately male profession, so it appears they are doing this create more diversity in the workplace and possibly promote it to more women who are thinking of studying it. Something I'm all for. I'm sure in other industries that are more female dominated there are postings for positions looking for male applicants only (Nursing springs to mind).

I will admit that I find the whole advert a bit odd. Looking for people who have specifically been out of work for a certain amount of time. Perhaps it's some sort of program they have but honestly I don't know much about it.

Anyway, not going to feign some outrage over it.

The reason I am annoyed is because I work as an engineer in galway. I found it hard to find work at the start. I am now working in an engineering company in which the majority of employees are women (60%).

grogi · 29-09-2017 3:51pm

bfa1509 wrote: »

This is the most ridiculous thing I have heard in a while. I have no problem with Graduate programs as they aim to tackle youth unemployment.

So they by definition support age discrimination

grogi · 29-09-2017 3:59pm

bfa1509 wrote: »

This is the most ridiculous thing I have heard in a while. I have no problem with Graduate programs as they aim to tackle youth unemployment. This job on the other hand discriminates based on gender. How is this ok?

Also, since when have women had more difficulty than men getting back into the workforce? Women are almost at full employment in ireland (6%) where as 1 in 5 men are unemployed. How come they don't introduce a return to employment program for men in Nursing and Teaching, the careers in which women overwhelmingly dominate?

I strongly disagree. You are cherry picking facts, but the whole problem is much bigger.

First of all, a majority of non-working women in Ireland are not classified as unemployed. They stay at home. But not by choice, but because necessity. It is cheaper to do so when you have children - childcare et al costs are bigger than the typical salary. What's more, there is a horrendous gender bias when it comes to salaries, so it often is a natural choice for a woman, not a man, to do so.

Secondly, when she wants to go back - which is when kids go to school, so after 4-5 years - a mother with kids is always considered last. There is a higher probability she will need to take a day off because of the kids (men in general just tend to push that onto the women).

Full disclaimer: I am a man pig.

bfa1509 · 29-09-2017 3:59pm

grogi wrote: »

So they by definition support age discrimination

Hehe, good point! However, youth unemployment is bad for the oldies too!!

dudara · 29-09-2017 4:03pm

Women have a really hard time coming back into the workplace after taking many years out to raise their kids. In a round of interviews , the mom trying to get back to work may often be considered bottom of the pile. I've interviewed women in this situation in the past and they can be so worried / nervous about finding / getting back to work. I think it's a worthwhile initiative.

Mr.H · 29-09-2017 4:03pm

If a qualified person can't apply for the job because of their gender, it is sexist.

All this positive sexism is a load of crap. I am a man. Does that mean I have to apologise for every scumbag who ever insulted a woman?

If I am qualified for the job why can't I apply for it?

Sexism against men exists. But nobody cares because "sure the lads are grand".

Mr.H · 29-09-2017 4:07pm

dudara wrote:

Women have a really hard time coming back into the workplace after taking many years out to raise their kids. In a round of interviews , the mom trying to get back to work may often be considered bottom of the pile. I've interviewed women in this situation in the past and they can be so worried / nervous about finding / getting back to work. I think it's a worthwhile initiative.

Men also have a hard time coming back into work after the recession.

Regardless of your gender you should be looked at equally. These jobs are not.

In a time when jobs are scarce we should not allow sexism

anto77 · 29-09-2017 4:12pm

Maybe Medtronic are looking to average down on their wage bill

grogi · 29-09-2017 4:14pm

bfa1509 wrote: »

Hehe, good point! However, youth unemployment is bad for the oldies too!!

And women unemployment is equally bad for man.

dudara · 29-09-2017 4:18pm

Everyone had a hard time coming back after the recession. That wasn't unique to men or women.

It's an unfortunate truth but women coming back to work after taking time out for family will not be viewed in the same light as a man coming back to work. I wish we could all think it was equal but it's not.

bfa1509 · 29-09-2017 4:20pm

grogi wrote: »

And women unemployment is equally bad for man.

And man unemployment is worse for man

server down · 29-09-2017 4:23pm

dudara wrote: »

Everyone had a hard time coming back after the recession. That wasn't unique to men or women.

It's an unfortunate truth but women coming back to work after taking time out for family will not be viewed in the same light as a man coming back to work. I wish we could all think it was equal but it's not.

Where is the evidence of that? By the way the last recession affected men more than women.

I don't think positive discrimination is legal in Ireland. Some male who wants a quick payoff should apply.

djPSB · 29-09-2017 4:23pm

Diziet wrote: »

It's a specific program for a specific purpose (which is presumably to reach an under-utilised talent pool). Do you have a problem with graduate programs? They also reach out to a specific talent pool.

Given the vast difficulty in employment for women who have been out of the workforce, this is creating equality, not the reverse.

A graduate programme is designed to target a cohort that have little experience and generally remuneration is quite low starting off.

The programme above discriminates against men. I really don't see why any company would specify gender requirements, the best person should get the job regardless of gender.

Victor · 29-09-2017 4:23pm

bfa1509 wrote: »

Also, since when have women had more difficulty than men getting back into the workforce? Women are almost at full employment in ireland (6%) where as 1 in 5 men are unemployed.

Liar.

bfa1509 wrote: »

How come they don't introduce a return to employment program for men in Nursing and Teaching, the careers in which women overwhelmingly dominate?

Medtronic don't run schools and hospitals "Medtronic Public Limited Company is a medical device company. Its headquarters are in Dublin, Ireland.[1][3][4][5] Its operational headquarters are in Fridley, Minnesota.[1][6] Medtronic is the world's largest standalone[clarification needed] medical equipment development company.[7]" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medtronic

bfa1509 wrote: »

The reason I am annoyed is because I work as an engineer in galway. I found it hard to find work at the start. I am now working in an engineering company in which the majority of employees are women (60%).

Are 60% of the engineers and management women?

PCeeeee · 29-09-2017 4:25pm

Is gender not one of the nine grounds?

Donal55 · 29-09-2017 4:26pm

PCeeeee wrote: »

Is gender not one of the nine grounds?

Thinking that myself, might apply and then run to Equality Authority.

SJ. · 29-09-2017 4:32pm

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Positive discrimination is still discrimination.

Preventing someone from applying for a job because of their sex is sexism, regardless of the reasons behind it.

Discrimination can be a good thing. I discriminate against sex offenders when looking for childminders, for example. Obviously under the Equal Status Act, discrimination on the grounds of gender is illegal, but is that really what's going on here?

It's a great idea to actively seek talent in a pool of potential employees that are often overlooked, and by advertising in this way you encourage them to apply and provide an assurance that they won't be dismissed.

Interesting to see 'unemployment rates' cited above - however they don't accuarately represent workforce participation, as women disproportionately drop out of the labour market to take on caring roles. Ireland has very low levels of female labour market participation by EU standards. I'm sure if it turned out that Medtronic were hiring only women, then their hiring policy could be considered sexist; but looking that this as one of their many ways of recruiting people to engineering roles, I reckon it's more likely to be seeking to address an imbalance in recruiting. I bet most of the engineers they hire are men. If that's true (and it is an assumption), then I'd say it's very unlikely that their hiring policy is discriminatory - in fact I'd say it's likely to be less discriminatory than many other organisations.

Really need lots more information to make a fair judgement - you'd need to know, in relation to the type of jobs advertised, what proportion of people with the requisite qualifications and experience were men. Then you could examine whether the proportion of applicants for jobs matched that. If not, maybe there is something in their advertising process that discourages applications from a particular gender. Then you could look at the proportion of men that were interviewed, and the proportion of men that were hired... That would give a good indication of whether there was discrimination at play.

Policies that seek to correct historical discrimination can be a very good thing. It's typical that people leap on them as being "discriminatory" themselves, but we're not starting from a world of perfect equality, so policies that claim to be perfectly neutral now won't correct past imbalances.

djPSB · 29-09-2017 4:34pm

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/why-can-t-a-woman-drive-a-crane-the-same-as-a-man-1.3235004?mode=amp

Feminists are very selective when they identify sectors which lack female representation e.g. construction, engineering etc. And yes it would be good to see more females take an interest in this industry.

But they should also note that there are other sectors which are also male dominated and require female representation. Waste collectors are 99.5% male.

server down · 29-09-2017 4:35pm

SJ. wrote: »

Discrimination can be a good thing. I discriminate against sex offenders when looking for childminders, for example. Obviously under the Equal Status Act, discrimination on the grounds of gender is illegal, but is that really what's going on here?

Yes?

Victor · 29-09-2017 4:36pm

Donal55 wrote: »

Thinking that myself, might apply and then run to Equality Authority.

Are you an unemployed engineer?

server down · 29-09-2017 4:40pm

I actually joined here to discuss a situation where a woman was discriminated against because of age, posted in another forum. I am no legal scholar but have done enough courses to know the law, and what is legal and not. That add is illegal. Its possible the over all campaign ( to balance out a gender imbalance internally) is ok, but that ad is illegal.

there is no exemption for positive discrimination in these laws.

Donal55 · 29-09-2017 4:42pm

Victor wrote: »

Are you an unemployed engineer?

Not unemployed but always looking at what's going in case I fancy a change.
Or perhaps maybe I'm just looking for a bit of interview practice.

Either way, as someone else said, it is one of the nine grounds.
What if it was only catholics, Jews, blacks, travellers, gays or only MEN who could apply?

Victor · 29-09-2017 4:46pm

SJ. wrote: »

Discrimination can be a good thing. I discriminate against sex offenders when looking for childminders, for example. Obviously under the Equal Status Act

It would be the Employment Equality Acts, not the Equal Status Acts.

Victor · 29-09-2017 5:03pm

Donal55 wrote: »

Not unemployed but always looking at what's going in case I fancy a change.
Or perhaps maybe I'm just looking for a bit of interview practice.

Well,apply for one of these, all available on the Medtronic LinkedIn page: https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/search?f_C=1841&f_L=ie%3A0&f_F=eng&locationType=Y&orig=FCTD&trk=jobs_jserp_facet_function

Assoc Process Development Engineer
Configuration Management Supervisor
Engineering
Manufacturing Engineer
Manufacturing Engineer (weekend shift Temp)
Manufacturing Project Engineer (Temp)
ME Technician
P&L Graduate Design & Development Engineer Intern
Principal R&D Engineer
Process Development Engineer
Project Engineer
R&D Program Manager
R-D Engineer
R-D Engineer - Temporary Contract
Return To Work Program for Women in Engineering
Senior Design Assurance Engineering Manager
Senior Design Assurance Engineering Program Manager
Senior Quality Engineer
Senior Quality Manufacturing Engineer
Snr Manufacturing Engineer
Sr Design & Development Engineer
Sr Design Assurance Engineer
Sr Engineering Manager
Sr Equipment Controls Engineer
Sr Manufacturing Engineer
Sr Process Development Engineer
Sr R&D Engineering Manager
Sr R/D Balloon Engineer
Sr R/D Engineer
Sr R/D Engineer (Electronics)
Sr R/D Engineer (Mechanical)
Sr R/D Engineer-Temp - Mechanical
Supervisor - Chemical Distribution Centre
Technician II
Training - Dev Specialist

titan18 · 29-09-2017 5:04pm

Victor wrote:

Well,apply for one of these, all available on the Medtronic LinkedIn page: Assoc Process Development Engineer Configuration Management Supervisor Engineering Manufacturing Engineer Manufacturing Engineer (weekend shift Temp) Manufacturing Project Engineer (Temp) ME Technician P&L Graduate Design & Development Engineer Intern Principal R&D Engineer Process Development Engineer Project Engineer R&D Program Manager R-D Engineer R-D Engineer - Temporary Contract Return To Work Program for Women in Engineering Senior Design Assurance Engineering Manager Senior Design Assurance Engineering Program Manager Senior Quality Engineer Senior Quality Manufacturing Engineer Snr Manufacturing Engineer Sr Design & Development Engineer Sr Design Assurance Engineer Sr Engineering Manager Sr Equipment Controls Engineer Sr Manufacturing Engineer Sr Process Development Engineer Sr R&D Engineering Manager Sr R/D Balloon Engineer Sr R/D Engineer Sr R/D Engineer (Electronics) Sr R/D Engineer (Mechanical) Sr R/D Engineer-Temp - Mechanical Supervisor - Chemical Distribution Centre Technician II Training - Dev Specialist

Or apply for this one and get some easy money

SJ. · 29-09-2017 5:10pm

The legality of this situation is obviously a matter for the courts, and from the sounds of things a lot of people here have expertise in equality legislation and case law, so I will defer to that, but it's great to see so many people so exercised about gender discrimination. Given that the overwhelming majority of gender discrimination is not against men, I'm sure that commentors' input into equality issues going forward will focus largely on the many and varied examples in the field of 'work & jobs' where there is discrimination against women and trans people.

Donal55 · 29-09-2017 5:34pm

Victor wrote: »

Well,apply for one of these, all available on the Medtronic LinkedIn page: https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/search?f_C=1841&f_L=ie%3A0&f_F=eng&locationType=Y&orig=FCTD&trk=jobs_jserp_facet_function

Assoc Process Development Engineer
Configuration Management Supervisor
Engineering
Manufacturing Engineer
Manufacturing Engineer (weekend shift Temp)
Manufacturing Project Engineer (Temp)
ME Technician
P&L Graduate Design & Development Engineer Intern
Principal R&D Engineer
Process Development Engineer
Project Engineer
R&D Program Manager
R-D Engineer
R-D Engineer - Temporary Contract
Return To Work Program for Women in Engineering
Senior Design Assurance Engineering Manager
Senior Design Assurance Engineering Program Manager
Senior Quality Engineer
Senior Quality Manufacturing Engineer
Snr Manufacturing Engineer
Sr Design & Development Engineer
Sr Design Assurance Engineer
Sr Engineering Manager
Sr Equipment Controls Engineer
Sr Manufacturing Engineer
Sr Process Development Engineer
Sr R&D Engineering Manager
Sr R/D Balloon Engineer
Sr R/D Engineer
Sr R/D Engineer (Electronics)
Sr R/D Engineer (Mechanical)
Sr R/D Engineer-Temp - Mechanical
Supervisor - Chemical Distribution Centre
Technician II
Training - Dev Specialist

And are any or all of those jobs for men only? I doubt any of them are and yet it would appear that because it's for women it is okay to discriminate.

titan18 · 29-09-2017 5:38pm

SJ. wrote: »

The legality of this situation is obviously a matter for the courts, and from the sounds of things a lot of people here have expertise in equality legislation and case law, so I will defer to that, but it's great to see so many people so exercised about gender discrimination. Given that the overwhelming majority of gender discrimination is not against men, I'm sure that commentors' input into equality issues going forward will focus largely on the many and varied examples in the field of 'work & jobs' where there is discrimination against women and trans people.

It's public information tbf

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1998/act/21/section/10/enacted/en/html#sec10

It says for women only, so it's clearly discriminatory.

SJ. · 29-09-2017 5:48pm

titan18 wrote: »

It's public information tbf

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1998/act/21/section/10/enacted/en/html#sec10

It says for women only, so it's clearly discriminatory.

That simple is it? I thought there was more nuance to the law, given that quotas for candidates for political office were ruled to be legal by the high court, for example, but I obviously don’t have your legal expertise... I am sure the wrc and ihrec will be glad to have the issue resolved so straightforwardly - save them a lot of time.

You should probably tell its4women.ie too - I am sure they will find your opinion highly insightful and original.

bfa1509 · 29-09-2017 5:55pm

SJ. wrote: »

That simple is it? I thought there was more nuance to the law, given that quotas for candidates for political office were ruled to be legal by the high court, for example, but I obviously don’t have your legal expertise... I am sure the wrc and ihrec will be glad to have the issue resolved so straightforwardly - save them a lot of time.

You should probably tell its4women.ie too - I am sure they will find your opinion highly insightful and original.

As a man, I have no problem with its4women.ie as they don't deny men the option to get an inurance policy with them. Much in the same way women aren't refused "Just for men" hair dye or "not-for-girls" Yorkies.

But this job opening that likely would deny my application based on my gender is disgraceful.

FishOnABike · 29-09-2017 6:08pm

server down wrote: »

Where is the evidence of that? By the way the last recession affected men more than women.

I don't think positive discrimination is legal in Ireland. Some male who wants a quick payoff should apply.

I'd nearly be tempted. It is equally difficult for a man to return to the workforce after a period of unemployment, perhaps moreso as the "looking after family" reason is not as accepted for a man.

If they sought to recruit people who were returning to the workforce after an absence of a few years, irrespective of gender, I'd have no problem.

I love to apply and then ask them how dare they assume my gender:-)

gctest50 · 29-09-2017 6:37pm

bfa1509 wrote: »

As a man, I have no problem with its4women.ie as they don't deny men the option to get an inurance policy with them. Much in the same way women aren't refused "Just for men" hair dye or "not-for-girls" Yorkies.

But this job opening that likely would deny my application based on my gender is disgraceful.

that post needs this :

http://www.hollandandbarrett.ie/shop/vitamins-supplements/supplements/evening-primrose-oil/

SJ. · 29-09-2017 6:38pm

bfa1509 wrote: »

As a man, I have no problem with its4women.ie as they don't deny men the option to get an inurance policy with them. Much in the same way women aren't refused "Just for men" hair dye or "not-for-girls" Yorkies.

But this job opening that likely would deny my application based on my gender is disgraceful.

Well again I'm glad to see that you are alive to the disgrace that is gender discrimination, and particularly in STEM. It may be the case that at some time in the future you might see an example of a woman being discriminated against, and it's great to know that you're being vigilant.

If I were a lawyer (which I am not) and I was engaged by Medtronic (which I am not), I would point out that the ad does not deny the rights of men to apply, any more than its4women do. I would also make the case that, while we have no policies that actively discriminate against women, my recruitment arm has struggled to attract women and that the rate of male hiring suggested to me that there could be some discrimination taking place in the proces. I would say that, concerned to improve our record that might be discriminatory, I created a programme to reach out to a particularly marginalised group of women. I would point out that, despite this programme, most of our engineering hires were men, and that the rates of recruitment and promotion of men in our company made it unlikely that we were discriminating against men. I would argue that this programme actually reduced discrimination.

Obviously the keen legal minds of boards.ie have led me to believe that this argument would be futile, so you probably should take a case - here you go:
http://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/

I'll leave you to it; but obviously I am delighted that the issue of gender equality in STEM is finally being taken seriously. Personally I would expect an industry that discriminated against men to be less male dominated than other industries, rather than more, but there you go.

PCeeeee · 29-09-2017 6:43pm

SJ. wrote: »

Well again I'm glad to see that you are alive to the disgrace that is gender discrimination, and particularly in STEM. It may be the case that at some time in the future you might see an example of a woman being discriminated against, and it's great to know that you're being vigilant.

If I were a lawyer (which I am not) and I was engaged by Medtronic (which I am not), I would point out that the ad does not deny the rights of men to apply, any more than its4women do. I would also make the case that, while we have no policies that actively discriminate against women, my recruitment arm has struggled to attract women and that the rate of male hiring suggested to me that there could be some discrimination taking place in the proces. I would say that, concerned to improve our record that might be discriminatory, I created a programme to reach out to a particularly marginalised group of women. I would point out that, despite this programme, most of our engineering hires were men, and that the rates of recruitment and promotion of men in our company made it unlikely that we were discriminating against men. I would argue that this programme actually reduced discrimination.

Obviously the keen legal minds of boards.ie have led me to believe that this argument would be futile, so you probably should take a case - here you go:
http://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/

I'll leave you to it; but obviously I am delighted that the issue of gender equality in STEM is finally being taken seriously. Personally I would expect an industry that discriminated against men to be less male dominated than other industries, rather than more, but there you go.

I'm detecting a hint of sarcasm SJ :eek:. You are very prickly about this subject. Can I ask why?

SJ. · 29-09-2017 6:45pm

PCeeeee wrote: »

. You are very prickly about this subject. Can I ask why?

I actually didn't start the thread, or comment early, so maybe this question is meant for the OP?

PCeeeee · 29-09-2017 6:52pm

SJ. wrote: »

I actually didn't start the thread, or comment early, so maybe this question is meant for the OP?

It's not. I was wondering why your post was as dripping with sarcasm as I read it to be. Perhaps it wasn't meant that way. If so I apologise.

titan18 · 29-09-2017 7:54pm

SJ. wrote: »

Well again I'm glad to see that you are alive to the disgrace that is gender discrimination, and particularly in STEM. It may be the case that at some time in the future you might see an example of a woman being discriminated against, and it's great to know that you're being vigilant.

If I were a lawyer (which I am not) and I was engaged by Medtronic (which I am not), I would point out that the ad does not deny the rights of men to apply, any more than its4women do. I would also make the case that, while we have no policies that actively discriminate against women, my recruitment arm has struggled to attract women and that the rate of male hiring suggested to me that there could be some discrimination taking place in the proces. I would say that, concerned to improve our record that might be discriminatory, I created a programme to reach out to a particularly marginalised group of women. I would point out that, despite this programme, most of our engineering hires were men, and that the rates of recruitment and promotion of men in our company made it unlikely that we were discriminating against men. I would argue that this programme actually reduced discrimination.

Obviously the keen legal minds of boards.ie have led me to believe that this argument would be futile, so you probably should take a case - here you go:
http://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/

I'll leave you to it; but obviously I am delighted that the issue of gender equality in STEM is finally being taken seriously. Personally I would expect an industry that discriminated against men to be less male dominated than other industries, rather than more, but there you go.

Did you miss this sentence

Medtronic has established a new, six-month paid, return to work programme for women who have taken a break from their engineering careers and now wish to return

Hell, even the big bold job title says for women in it

I've reported it here anyway. I think others should do the same

https://www.ihrec.ie/your-rights/report-inequality-advertising/

I've also emailed Medtronic themselves, so will be interesting to hear their reply

grogi · 29-09-2017 8:09pm

titan18 wrote: »

/.../

I am pretty sure you will have difficulty finding a man that took six months off his career and now struggles to return. There is no discrimination if there is nobody to discriminate...

Victor · 29-09-2017 10:28pm

titan18 wrote: »

It's public information tbf

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1998/act/21/section/10/enacted/en/html#sec10

It says for women only, so it's clearly discriminatory.

Read more of the act: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1998/act/21/section/24/enacted/en/html#sec24

Positive action on equal opportunities.

24.—(1) The provisions of this Act are without prejudice to measures to promote equal opportunity for men and women, in particular by removing existing inequalities which affect women's opportunities in the areas of access to employment, vocational training and promotion, and working conditions.

SJ. wrote: »

That simple is it? I thought there was more nuance to the law, given that quotas for candidates for political office were ruled to be legal by the high court

Different legislation.

bobbysands81 · 30-09-2017 12:22am

SJ. wrote: »

Discrimination can be a good thing. I discriminate against sex offenders when looking for childminders, for example. Obviously under the Equal Status Act, discrimination on the grounds of gender is illegal, but is that really what's going on here?

It's a great idea to actively seek talent in a pool of potential employees that are often overlooked, and by advertising in this way you encourage them to apply and provide an assurance that they won't be dismissed.

Interesting to see 'unemployment rates' cited above - however they don't accuarately represent workforce participation, as women disproportionately drop out of the labour market to take on caring roles. Ireland has very low levels of female labour market participation by EU standards. I'm sure if it turned out that Medtronic were hiring only women, then their hiring policy could be considered sexist; but looking that this as one of their many ways of recruiting people to engineering roles, I reckon it's more likely to be seeking to address an imbalance in recruiting. I bet most of the engineers they hire are men. If that's true (and it is an assumption), then I'd say it's very unlikely that their hiring policy is discriminatory - in fact I'd say it's likely to be less discriminatory than many other organisations.

Really need lots more information to make a fair judgement - you'd need to know, in relation to the type of jobs advertised, what proportion of people with the requisite qualifications and experience were men. Then you could examine whether the proportion of applicants for jobs matched that. If not, maybe there is something in their advertising process that discourages applications from a particular gender. Then you could look at the proportion of men that were interviewed, and the proportion of men that were hired... That would give a good indication of whether there was discrimination at play.

Policies that seek to correct historical discrimination can be a very good thing. It's typical that people leap on them as being "discriminatory" themselves, but we're not starting from a world of perfect equality, so policies that claim to be perfectly neutral now won't correct past imbalances.

That’s all lovely but it’s still sexism. I’m very sympathetic in encouraging women back into the workforce but is it really fair to exclude people from applying for a job based on their sex? To me it’s a resounding ‘No’.

There are other ways to encourage and entice women back, especially through family friendly initiatives, or (in the case of the private sector only) pay them the same rate as men - now there’s a real way to make a difference.

bobbysands81 · 30-09-2017 12:24am

SJ. wrote: »

The legality of this situation is obviously a matter for the courts, and from the sounds of things a lot of people here have expertise in equality legislation and case law, so I will defer to that, but it's great to see so many people so exercised about gender discrimination. Given that the overwhelming majority of gender discrimination is not against men, I'm sure that commentors' input into equality issues going forward will focus largely on the many and varied examples in the field of 'work & jobs' where there is discrimination against women and trans people.

So now you’re against discrimination???

server down · 30-09-2017 10:56am

SJ. wrote: »

Well again I'm glad to see that you are alive to the disgrace that is gender discrimination, and particularly in STEM. It may be the case that at some time in the future you might see an example of a woman being discriminated against, and it's great to know that you're being vigilant.

If I were a lawyer (which I am not) and I was engaged by Medtronic (which I am not), I would point out that the ad does not deny the rights of men to apply, any more than its4women do. I would also make the case that, while we have no policies that actively discriminate against women, my recruitment arm has struggled to attract women and that the rate of male hiring suggested to me that there could be some discrimination taking place in the proces. I would say that, concerned to improve our record that might be discriminatory, I created a programme to reach out to a particularly marginalised group of women. I would point out that, despite this programme, most of our engineering hires were men, and that the rates of recruitment and promotion of men in our company made it unlikely that we were discriminating against men. I would argue that this programme actually reduced discrimination.

Obviously the keen legal minds of boards.ie have led me to believe that this argument would be futile, so you probably should take a case - here you go:
http://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/

I'll leave you to it; but obviously I am delighted that the issue of gender equality in STEM is finally being taken seriously. Personally I would expect an industry that discriminated against men to be less male dominated than other industries, rather than more, but there you go.

Doesn't matter, the ad is still illegal. By the way the fact that only 20% of women are employed in STEM doesn't prove gender discrimination at a corporate level, unless that figure was way lower than the level of female graduates. A simple enough point I would have thought.

syntheticjunk · 30-09-2017 2:55pm

Looks like some people trying to find problem where it doesn't exist.
As one proverb says - who is worse than idiot? Idiot with initiative.

bfa1509 · 30-09-2017 3:06pm

syntheticjunk wrote: »

Looks like some people trying to find problem where it doesn't exist.
As one proverb says - who is worse than idiot? Idiot with initiative.

Sounds like the definition of modern day western Feminism.

Medtronic offering Engineering Jobs for Women Only!!

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