Changing car

restive

I am changing my car. I drive approximately 22,000 km a year mainly on rural roads. I have a budget of €15,000. What are my best options? Thanks.

KCross

restive wrote: »

I am changing my car. I drive approximately 22,000 km a year mainly on rural roads. I have a budget of €15,000. What are my best options? Thanks.

The most important information required is what is your daily max km (excluding the occasional long journeys). Then we can advise.

Some other useful bits of info as well.... do you have a driveway where you can charge the car?
Is there a 2nd car in the house for the occasional long journey?

restive

Casati wrote:

If you post on the Electric Cars sub forum you'll get great advise. I think you'd get a 2016 Leaf for that money but there are other options out there

restive wrote:

I am changing my car. I have a budget of roughly 15k. I drive to work on rural roads. I clock about 22,000 km a year. I used to have a 1.8 tdci Ford Focus. Running costs were high. I would like a hatchback. What are my best options. Economy and reliability are important.

restive wrote:

Thanks.

KCross wrote:

The most important information required is what is your daily max km (excluding the occasional long journeys). Then we can advise.

KCross wrote:

Some other useful bits of info as well.... do you have a driveway where you can charge the car? Is there a 2nd car in the house for the occasional long journey?

I drive a roundtrip of 37km to work. I live alone and do not have a second car. Yes I have a drive way.
Can I unplug the washing machine and plug in the car?

KCross

restive wrote: »

Can I unplug the washing machine and plug in the car?

EV's have multiple ways to be charged

- Slow charger: Standard 3-pin socket like you have in the house. This is a very slow way to charge the car but would probably do you fine with the 37km daily journey you are doing. You would realistically need an outdoor socket though unless you are happy trailing a cable out through windows overnight!?

If buying an EV you would need to ask if the car has one of those 3-pin charge cables. Not all EV's come with them.

- Fast charger: You can put in a purpose built charge point which will charge faster. See here for what that looks like:
https://evonestop.co.uk/collections/domestic-charging-points/products/wallpod-ev-homecharge-iec62196-type-2-socket

- Rapid charger: These are dotted around the country and are really only for the long journeys.
https://www.esb.ie/our-businesses/ecars/charge-point-map


Some finer detail here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=102642345&postcount=39

KCross

restive wrote: »

I drive a roundtrip of 37km to work. I live alone and do not have a second car. Yes I have a drive way.

You said you do 22k km/yr. The 37km per day is only half that, where is the rest of the driving done? Is it long journey's or just more tootling around the rural roads?

Basically what you need to grasp here is, can the EV I buy do all my daily driving without stopping to charge it. If you have to stop to charge on the public network everyday you are going to be sorry you bought an EV.

At €15k budget you are probably looking at a Leaf as your primary option. There are two main versions (24kWh and 30kWh). Expect to get about 120km and 160km respectively from them on a full charge. So, as long as you don't go over those values on a daily basis you are well suited.

Im just confused about the 22k per year and your daily commute of 37km. I think you need to explain that so you don't get bad advice here.

Shefwedfan

I posted on main forum as well.

I do agree the 22k km does not really add up. I would be interested to know how you came up with that number?

If I look at 261 work day per year, so 40 * 261 gives just over 10k km. You mentioned on other thread that your weekend driving is the same as your daily driving. SO 40*365 give 15k km per year.

I always thought I done huge mileage, then I wrote down a 3 month section and I wasn't doing half of what I thought I was doing.

I do think electric is the way forward for you. You will get loads of mentions of Leaf and they are decent car but might not be best in looks.

The Renault Zoe I find a lot nicer car.

If you are thinking long term and keeping this car for many year it might be worth pushing the budget a little and trying for eGolf or i3. Over the years you will appreciate the difference. I decided I was going to keep car till it fell off road so pushed out budget and got eGolf. Lovely car to drive and perfect for the driivng you are talking about.

restive

KCross wrote:

Basically what you need to grasp here is, can the EV I buy do all my daily driving without stopping to charge it. If you have to stop to charge on the public network everyday you are going to be sorry you bought an EV.

KCross wrote:

Im just confused about the 22k per year and your daily commute of 37km. I think you need to explain that so you don't get bad advice here.

KCross wrote:

At €15k budget you are probably looking at a Leaf as your primary option. There are two main versions (24kWh and 30kWh). Expect to get about 120km and 160km respectively from them on a full charge. So, as long as you don't go over those values on a daily basis you are well suited.

KCross wrote:

You said you do 22k km/yr. The 37km per day is only half that, where is the rest of the driving done? Is it long journey's or just more tootling around the rural roads?

Additional milage is tooling around rural roads. My longest single journey is 120km roundtrip 3 times a year.

KCross

restive wrote: »

Additional milage is tooling around rural roads. My longest single journey is 120km roundtrip 3 times a year.

You're good then. EV all the way.

Its really down to what you want in looks/style/comfort and what the budget can afford.

Leaf and Zoe are probably the only two in your budget.

Others to think about if you can stretch the budget are i3, Ioniq and eGolf.

In case you are looking at the UK, watch for the battery rental models... stay away from those. They will stand out as being very cheap but you have to pay a monthly battery rental on top of that. Don't go there.

For the Leaf they will either be very cheap, mention battery rental or they will have "Flex" in the description but always ask to be sure.

Shefwedfan

restive wrote: »

Additional milage is tooling around rural roads. My longest single journey is 120km roundtrip 3 times a year.

Perfect for electric.....:P

DrPhilG

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Perfect for electric.....:P

Was just going to say that. Right on the sweet spot to maximise savings without being too reliant on public charging.

Soarer

Yup, perfect candidate.

And you can leave the washing machine plugged in too!

thierry14

Would just buy a new Leaf next year

It will be a huge upgrade all round

They will probably have good deals on pcp etc

Scrappage too probably

If you were spending 5k i would go used, 15k is too much for much inferior products compared to Leaf 2018 and Ioniq

Shefwedfan

thierry14 wrote: »

Would just buy a new Leaf next year

It will be a huge upgrade all round

They will probably have good deals on pcp etc

Scrappage too probably

If you were spending 5k i would go used, 15k is too much for much inferior products compared to Leaf 2018 and Ioniq

PCP is disaster from what I can see with Leaf. Even the dealers are saying the same

The OP has 15k, I would say hold on till new model is out because it will see another drop in current Leaf prices.

Again that is based on the OP wanting to buy a Leaf.....

thierry14

Shefwedfan wrote: »

PCP is disaster from what I can see with Leaf. Even the dealers are saying the same

The OP has 15k, I would say hold on till new model is out because it will see another drop in current Leaf prices.

Again that is based on the OP wanting to buy a Leaf.....

How is pcp a disaster?

Its just a low interest loan

Shefwedfan

thierry14 wrote: »

How is pcp a disaster?

Its just a low interest loan

First thing, PCP is not a low interest loan.....

I do know when I went to Nissan about buying a Leaf earlier this year, not 1 but 2 dealers told me never to take a Leaf out on PCP....now I know enough if a dealer doesn't want to sell on PCP there is an issue.....

Please note I am not saying all PCP is bad but it seems to be bad with Leaf, think it is the residual value

Soarer

If you plan on keeping the car and can get a low interest rate, then PCP is spot on.

If you're looking to use the "equity" built up in the car to trade up in 3 years' time, things can get dodgy.

DesperateDan

Yeah I'm thinking of doing pcp on a new leaf in 2018. Waiting patiently for pricing ...

ainsyjnr

DesperateDan wrote: »

Yeah I'm thinking of doing pcp on a new leaf in 2018. Waiting patiently for pricing ...

Same here.

The current Nissan Go calculator has PCP at 2.9% and HP at 11%. If you were going to keep the car anyway, why would you take HP? Just do the PCP, pay less interest (save that) and then at the end pay most of the balloon payment with the interest you have saved.

Small bit left to pay = car paid off in 4 years not 5 on HP (for example)

I am sure there is some maths to it but if you are going to keep the car just take the better interest option!

unkel

ainsyjnr wrote: »

I am sure there is some maths to it

There is and there is a lot more to it than just the interest percentage.

With both PCP and HP you do not own the car. Let's say you lose your job and can afford to keep up the payments. Stop paying PCP / HP after 17 months and the bank's car is lifted from your driveway and you will be liable for the legal repercussions.

If you got a 3 year loan out for the car, after 17 months the loan is nearly half paid off. Just sell your car and pay off the loan and you will have thousands left to buy another (cheaper) car, pay off other bills, put food on the table for your family etc.

And of course, if you paid for the car with your savings in the first place, then this would be a lot less of a problem

Each to their own, but I would never go into a PCP / HP myself...

sgalvin

HP does give the consumer the benefit of the "half-rule".
You can hand the car back once you have made half of the payments without any penalty provide reasonable wear and tear without any financial repercussions.

If you are 17 months into a 36 month HP, you are only liable for 1 extra month.

the current fleet electric cars are suffering from horrific depreciation loosing nearly 50% every 2 years.

Which is why the PCP is a disaster.
The deposit and all the payments you make must cover the depreciation.
Because the depreciation in 3 years is ~66%, the monthly payments are high unless you have a big deposit and lie about the gmfv.

The flip side is they make excellent used buys after 4 years!
Someone else has taken the kicking on depreciation and you benefit from low running costs and a car that still has good bit of life still left in it.

unkel wrote: »

There is and there is a lot more to it than just the interest percentage.

With both PCP and HP you do not own the car. Let's say you lose your job and can afford to keep up the payments. Stop paying PCP / HP after 17 months and the bank's car is lifted from your driveway and you will be liable for the legal repercussions.

If you got a 3 year loan out for the car, after 17 months the loan is nearly half paid off. Just sell your car and pay off the loan and you will have thousands left to buy another (cheaper) car, pay off other bills, put food on the table for your family etc.

And of course, if you paid for the car with your savings in the first place, then this would be a lot less of a problem

Each to their own, but I would never go into a PCP / HP myself...

unkel

sgalvin wrote: »

HP does give the consumer the benefit of the "half-rule".
You can hand the car back once you have made half of the payments without any penalty provide reasonable wear and tear without any financial repercussions.

If you are 17 months into a 36 month HP, you are only liable for 1 extra month.

Indeed. Why do you think I came up with the 17 months (just under half of the 3 year typical term) in my example?

You lose 18 months of payments though in the "half-rule". Gone. And your deposit. Gone. What an utter waste of money and for what? Just for vanity and for "keeping up with the Joneses" when you had to get that new car that you couldn't afford?

sgalvin wrote: »

the current fleet electric cars are suffering from horrific depreciation loosing nearly 50% every 2 years.

False.

The only current EV to suffer badly from depreciation is the current Leaf. This is a very old model car now, around since 2010. It was replaced this month by a newer model

And no base model Leaf has ever depreciated anything like 50% in the first 2 years.

Have you ever heard about EVs from Tesla? The model S is the least depreciating car there is. Losing a smaller % in depreciation even compared to low end BMW or Mercedes diesel cars per year.

BoatMad

unkel wrote: »

There is and there is a lot more to it than just the interest percentage.

With both PCP and HP you do not own the car. Let's say you lose your job and can afford to keep up the payments. Stop paying PCP / HP after 17 months and the bank's car is lifted from your driveway and you will be liable for the legal repercussions.

If you got a 3 year loan out for the car, after 17 months the loan is nearly half paid off. Just sell your car and pay off the loan and you will have thousands left to buy another (cheaper) car, pay off other bills, put food on the table for your family etc.

And of course, if you paid for the car with your savings in the first place, then this would be a lot less of a problem

Each to their own, but I would never go into a PCP / HP myself...

This is nonsense

in a PCP , you are paying down the loan

IN a PCP you can always get a balance statement and sell the car and clear the loan

( just like in a term loan )

PCP is actually a protector against depreciation , return the car within the mileage allowance and you are guaranteed the GMFV

if you borrow the money , you are guaranteed nothing


YOU frankly are spouting nonsense

BoatMad

Which is why the PCP is a disaster.
The deposit and all the payments you make must cover the depreciation.
Because the depreciation in 3 years is ~66%, the monthly payments are high unless you have a big deposit and lie about the gmfv.

Again nonsense

PCP has nothing to do with depreciation. Its just a form of balloon loan, where the balance of the loan is in effect guaranteed against the asset that is the car

secondly , you " cant lie about GMFV", its a function of the mileage allowance plus any penalty miles you do being that .

and the depreciation of a New Leaf is not 66% in three years , mine was 26K new and the GMFV in in excess of 10K euros

unkel

BoatMad wrote: »

This is nonsense

in a PCP , you are paying down the loan

IN a PCP you can always get a balance statement and sell the car and clear the loan

LOL, you haven't a clue of what you are talking about. In a PCP you can not sell the car, as you do not own the car.

DrPhilG

Shefwedfan

BoatMad wrote: »

This is nonsense

in a PCP , you are paying down the loan

IN a PCP you can always get a balance statement and sell the car and clear the loan

( just like in a term loan )

PCP is actually a protector against depreciation , return the car within the mileage allowance and you are guaranteed the GMFV

if you borrow the money , you are guaranteed nothing


YOU frankly are spouting nonsense

I think you need to check your facts, you can't just sell the car and clear the loan. See below.....have a quick read.....

https://www.ccpc.ie/consumers/money/loans/paying-for-your-car/pcp/

Too many people don't check into things in this country. PCP is pushed by most dealers as it is a way to tie the buyer into going back to buy off them in future. It is set up to protect the dealer and not the consumer.

I don't see any advantage to PCP to be honest apart from potential low interest rates. I do think if you need to take out a loan for car then you are better to negotiate with bank/credit union. The ability to over pay the loan off quicker with no penalties is a must and should always be something you look for.....

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

LOL, you haven't a clue of what you are talking about. In a PCP you can not sell the car, as you do not own the car.

Hahahahahahahahahahaha.
Seriously?
Are you serious right now?



You can sell a car on PCP, of course you can.
You get a settlement figure from the finance company. In practice, this is done only really when you have a PCP car that you want to trade in to a different manufacturer (eg you want to trade in your Audi 2/3rds through your PCP but want a 520d)

Lads I went on PCP what's the issue with it, please explain ?

This year it's not as attractive because the monthly payments are higher and the GFMV a lot lower.

The Much lower GFMV of 5K will mean guaranteed more than 5K at the end if you trade, Nissan are playing it safe so they will not loose. The difference is you are paying for this deposit anyway by the higher monthly payments.

My GFMV will be 12K and most likely worth 9-10K, I don't care because I'll be getting a new one, I have no deposit at worst, Nissan take the loss......

With PCP you pay interest + the calculated depreciation.

I could also use the fact the Leaf has devalued more and renegotiate a extension for another year for the current car value or buy the car based on it's current value , because the GFMV is 12K doesn't mean I have to pay that to own the car.

PCP can offer much lower interest than a bank loan over the 3 years, the difference is you have to pay the balloon to own it and you need cash at the end or you'll have to refinance and you might not get as good rate.

You buy a car to own it because you think PCP is bad, not even the dealers get this do they ? think about it, with HP or Bank Loan you're paying the full cost of the car taking the full hit on depreciation, you're going to pay depreciation either way if you trade it and you have 3 years to think if you want to keep it or not.

I have the option to walk away or renegotiate based on current value and also I can hop into a new car, the difference in handing it back is that the dealer might tell you you owe money if they deem the car not in acceptable condition.

Anyone can sell a car with outstanding finance whether on PCP or not if the finance company agree. I have no idea why this is such a big deal here.

I bought my Prius with outstanding finance, just went to the bank with the guy paid the balance, gave him some cash, bank gave me letter , we went together and posted the log book and I drove off in the Prius. Easy peasy !

BoatMad

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I think you need to check your facts, you can't just sell the car and clear the loan. See below.....have a quick read.....

https://www.ccpc.ie/consumers/money/loans/paying-for-your-car/pcp/

Too many people don't check into things in this country. PCP is pushed by most dealers as it is a way to tie the buyer into going back to buy off them in future. It is set up to protect the dealer and not the consumer.

I don't see any advantage to PCP to be honest apart from potential low interest rates. I do think if you need to take out a loan for car then you are better to negotiate with bank/credit union. The ability to over pay the loan off quicker with no penalties is a must and should always be something you look for.....

given I have done this before,

to sell you car on a PCP , you merely ask the finance company for a final balance amount. one that is cleared , typically done as part of the sales transaction the car belongs to that person. ( How do you think garages trade up on PCP )

Most PCP clauses give you the " right" to buy out the PCP at any stage , subject to a balance amount being paid . Mines does (there are no " penalties")

The legal situation is NO different , if you have a loan, YOU remain liable in all cases for the debt

You clearly , quite frankly have no idea what you are talking about

BoatMad

Heres a quick guide

HP: You borrow a sun secured against the asset and pay off the principal and interest over the term of the HP contract

PCP: You borrow a sum, less a calculated " ballon" amount , you pay off interest and principle on the borrowed amount and you pay interest on the ballon . The finance is secured against the car. At the end you pay the balloon or hand back the car ( forget anything else, cause thats not guaranteed )

Personal Loan: You raise the finance for the complete purchase of the car, secured against your own financial position ( which may include collateral ), You pay interest and principle over the lifetime of the loan


In reality they are all basically the same , you pay for the car!

Dealers dont like PCPs, when they go wrong , because the punter doesnt " build equity" that can be used to buy from the dealer
That part of " selling PCP" is the snake oil, and should be banned

sgalvin

Agree with issues on the PCP.
To me a deposit is a deposit against damage and should be returned at the end of the period less the relevant charges, it should not be part of the payment plan.

Depreciation on current EV is rediculously high and I don't really understand why. There are many 2 year old leafs out there for about 50% of list price.
Tesla are a niche item at present and in relatively short supply and the Ioniq too new, but Mercedes S class type cars have historically lost value at an alarming rate.

Only time will tell but today Nissan are quoting a gmfv on a mid spec Leaf of €5,500 after 3 years which is a lot lower than they quoted 2 years ago when I looked at them, which doesn't inspire confidence in residuals, and pushes up monthly payments.

If you're buying and keeping for a long time it's not really so much of an issue but short term depreciation losses can wipe out any fuel savings.

BoatMad wrote: »

Heres a quick guide

HP: You borrow a sun secured against the asset and pay off the principal and interest over the term of the HP contract

PCP: You borrow a sum, less a calculated " ballon" amount , you pay off interest and principle on the borrowed amount and you pay interest on the ballon . The finance is secured against the car. At the end you pay the balloon or hand back the car ( forget anything else, cause thats not guaranteed )

Personal Loan: You raise the finance for the complete purchase of the car, secured against your own financial position ( which may include collateral ), You pay interest and principle over the lifetime of the loan


In reality they are all basically the same , you pay for the car!

Dealers dont like PCPs, when they go wrong , because the punter doesnt " build equity" that can be used to buy from the dealer
That part of " selling PCP" is the snake oil, and should be banned

BoatMad

Only time will tell but today Nissan are quoting a gmfv on a mid spec Leaf of €5,500 after 3 years which is a lot lower than they quoted 2 years ago when I looked at them, which doesn't inspire confidence in residuals, and pushes up monthly payments.

sure you can get a loan or HP and finance 100% depreciation instead !!!!

Shefwedfan

Guys this is gone way off track for the OP who is just asking for recommendations on new car, not a discussion on the benefits of PCP.....there is a huge thread on the main Motor forum to discuss PCP....or maybe we should have one here? I know when I asked about PCP by 2 garages for Leaf I was told not to use it.....

Back to OP.....what do you think of electric car options? anything interest you?

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

sure you can get a loan or HP and finance 100% depreciation instead !!!!

Absolutely, people just don't get it Boat_Mad.

At worst I have no deposit for the new Leaf which I had assumed I would not at the beginning anyway.

Think of it this way folks, if I pay a set price for the leaf over 3 years there'll be no drastic surprises at the end, why ? because I'm paying the calculated estimated depreciation + interest over the 3 years and the fact it may be worth less is Nissan's problem.

My current GFMV will be 12,000 or 12,500 can't remember. So if the car is worth 5K then I do not take the hit how hard is it for people to understand this ???

It just so happens that now Nissan have coped on and made sure to offer the GFMV at absolute rock bottom to ensure that they do not take the hit this time around and you will have a deposit at the end but you will be paying for this by the higher monthly payments.

In other words, you get nothing for nothing.

I just made the right choice at the time because I was uncertain and PCP eliminated the risk for me and banks were charging something like 11-12% interest.

It will be interesting to see what is on offer for the MK 1.5 Leaf.

peposhi

unkel wrote: »

LOL, you haven't a clue of what you are talking about. In a PCP you can not sell the car, as you do not own the car.

I did.

I actually had the outstanding balance cleared after the car was sold.