70% of BPS will be paid in October

George Sunsnow

The BPS will be 70:30 again this year in case anyone missed the announcement ?

https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/press/pressreleases/2017/september/title,111539,en.html

whelan2

Straight to the tax man .......:mad:

tanko

Sure didnt that clown George Lee almost wet himself with excitement as he announced this on RTE news at the ploughing.
He said it was an "extra 250 million euro for farmers".

kowtow

70 : 30 again?

Not that a hundred quid buys you much these days....

20silkcut

What are the best ways of avoiding tax without buying stock or machinery or building work.
Would forward buying in the co-op shield this money from the tax man. Anyone ever done this?

20silkcut

Obviously I intend spending money next year and realise that tax has to be paid at some stage but I am in growth mode but I don't want to spend between now and Christmas.

kk.man

20silkcut wrote: »

What are the best ways of avoiding tax without buying stock or machinery or building work.
Would forward buying in the co-op shield this money from the tax man. Anyone ever done this?

I think you might benefit in the short term but you would have to keep it up in future which mighten be possible and worse sustainable. It's just keeping the wolf from the door for now.

That's just my unqualified opinion.

20silkcut

kk.man wrote: »

20silkcut wrote: »

What are the best ways of avoiding tax without buying stock or machinery or building work.
Would forward buying in the co-op shield this money from the tax man. Anyone ever done this?

I think you might benefit in the short term but you would have to keep it up in future which mighten be possible and worse sustainable. It's just keeping the wolf from the door.

That's just my unqualified opinion.

I didn't explain properly I am currently in an ongoing expansion on my farm. Every penny I make gets re-invested and will do for the foreseeable future I do not see a profit from my farming activities for at least the next Two to three years. The revenue work by calendar years if you have 15 or 20 K in your account on the 31st of December 2017 then it is part of your income for 2017 regardless of whether you go out and buy 20k of cattle on the 1st Jan 2018.
Now I know there is income averaging as well which could mitigate this but my accountant is always reticent about taking that option.

George Sunsnow

Just be logical about it though
Don’t buy or do stuff that you don’t really need to save tax
There’s little point losing 100% of your money just to save 30%

20silkcut

George Sunsnow wrote: »

Just be logical about it though
Don’t buy or do stuff that you don’t really need to save tax
There’s little point losing 100% of your money just to save 30%

But your losing 30 per cent of your income that you will badly need in the next calendar year.
Who wants to be buying cattle in oct/Nov/Dec.
Last year the glas payment came on the 30th December. Like they are just giving it to take it back.

A cow called Daisy

tanko wrote: »

Sure didnt that clown George Lee almost wet himself with excitement as he announced this on RTE news at the ploughing.
He said it was an "extra 250 million euro for farmers".

The bucking follox. The whole attitude to these payments p' s me off big time. They never mention that it is supposed (I know) to compensate us for the reduced prices. And why, why, why don't they say how much is being paid to Dept. staff to administer this scheme where they live without fear of inspections or sanctions and having their income cut.
But I suppose there would be no news in that.
Rant over.....must go and check my herd register

Buford T. Justice XIX

20silkcut wrote: »

What are the best ways of avoiding tax without buying stock or machinery or building work.
Would forward buying in the co-op shield this money from the tax man. Anyone ever done this?

Buying fertiliser is the obvious one. Especially with a price rise coming next month from Yara, you will be buying to be delivered next January so no having to store it on the farm until use. And will hugely protect your cash flows next year which may mean having to do it each year. A few farmers round me do it every year.

ganmo

A few things silk.
You set your financial year so you can set it to suit yourself.

Technically if you buy fertililizer the cash goes from the bank account but on your books your assets would stay the same because you'd now own the fertiliser.

My thinking would be buy smaller stuff that you're likely to use, like grinding discs, fencing supplies, oil and stuff under 200 quid

Timmaay

whelan2 wrote: »

Straight to the tax man .......:mad:

Only just getting my 2016 returns finished up with the accountant now, so I've no idea what the tax bill will be yet, how are other people's bills coming in, much down on 2015?

whelan2

Timmaay wrote: »

Only just getting my 2016 returns finished up with the accountant now, so I've no idea what the tax bill will be yet, how are other people's bills coming in, much down on 2015?

Mine stayed the same.. even though milk price was down my spending was way down too. Using averaging. Was very surprised

Timmaay

Silk cut, a heavily expanding farm should in theory have a much lower tax liability (once your spread out out your capital allowances reasonably well), I think trying to push stuff over to next year is really only kicking the can down the road, there (hopefully) will be a time when you have stopped expanding, and if you are just trying to push forward profits then you'll get hit with a huge tax bill then. At the very least now you should be aiming to come in very close to the cutoff threshold of your higher tax rate, if things work out in the future when you have stopped expanding you could be thrown nicely into the higher tax bracket, so no point leaving "behind" unused lower tax thresholds now. (Athlo at least in years that you are say in the higher tax band, and have cash left over, you can lump sum it into your pension, and only be charged the lower tax rate when drawing that down)

J.O. Farmer

20silkcut wrote: »

I didn't explain properly I am currently in an ongoing expansion on my farm. Every penny I make gets re-invested and will do for the foreseeable future I do not see a profit from my farming activities for at least the next Two to three years. The revenue work by calendar years if you have 15 or 20 K in your account on the 31st of December 2017 then it is part of your income for 2017 regardless of whether you go out and buy 20k of cattle on the 1st Jan 2018.
Now I know there is income averaging as well which could mitigate this but my accountant is always reticent about taking that option.

I think your accountant would be best placed to advise you but when you talk about having 15 to 20k sitting in your account is this 15 or 20k profit from the year or is this 15 or 20k that's already been spent earlier in the year from savings and it's really just replacing them.

Having 15-20k clear profit for the taxman to tax doesn't sound like you'd be reinvesting all the profits.

You don't pay tax on the 15 to 20k just because it's in your account though so if you had 15-20k on January 1st and you still only have that same amount on December 31st you won't pay any tax assuming everything has gone through the account.

whelan2

ganmo wrote: »

A few things silk.
You set your financial year so you can set it to suit yourself.

Technically if you buy fertililizer the cash goes from the bank account but on your books your assets would stay the same because you'd now own the fertiliser.

My thinking would be buy smaller stuff that you're likely to use, like grinding discs, fencing supplies, oil and stuff under 200 quid

Last day of my tax year tomorrow.

George Sunsnow

20silkcut wrote: »

But your losing 30 per cent of your income that you will badly need in the next calendar year.
Who wants to be buying cattle in oct/Nov/Dec.
Last year the glas payment came on the 30th December. Like they are just giving it to take it back.

Think you misunderstood me
I’m saying only spend money on things you need
Don’t go buying a new harrow for example that you might use twice in the year to save tax as 100% of the money is gone into the harrow never to be seen again (or missing for a while at least if capitalising)
Keep the old harrow another while ,you’ll have the net of tax cash flow in your bank for more important things
The tax man on a bad day might only take 30% of your income whereas the machinery salesman or whomever will take 100% if you let them

kowtow

George Sunsnow wrote:

The tax man on a bad day might only take 30% of your income whereas the machinery salesman or whomever will take 100% if you let them

Ah, but unlike a harrow you can't drag the tax man around a rocky field with the engine roaring whooping at the top of your voice on an autumn evening.

Or can you?

Gawddawggonnit

kowtow wrote: »

Ah, but unlike a harrow you can't drag the tax man around a rocky field with the engine roaring whooping at the top of your voice on an autumn evening.

Or can you?

That sounds awfully tempting!

Buford T. Justice XIX

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

That sounds awfully tempting!

We could compare Irish and French tax collectors on durability, price and cost of repairs.

Gawddawggonnit

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

We could compare Irish and French tax collectors on durability, price and cost of repairs.

Lol.
Durability and price definitely yes...but repairs NO!

Let's consider them, for research purposes, as disposable.

20silkcut

ganmo wrote: »

A few things silk.
You set your financial year so you can set it to suit yourself.

Technically if you buy fertililizer the cash goes from the bank account but on your books your assets would stay the same because you'd now own the fertiliser.

My thinking would be buy smaller stuff that you're likely to use, like grinding discs, fencing supplies, oil and stuff under 200 quid

I got screwed for tax in 2009. In the autumn of 2008 I got a reps inspection. No issue with inspection but my payment got with held till Feb 09. I got all my subsidies and reps money on time at the back end of 09. I got hit with a big tax bill for 09. All because the 2008 reps payment came in February 09. No amount of explaing that this was 2008 income would do. If the 2008 reps payment had come in 2008 my tax liability for both 08 and 09 would be very low. Income averaging was not allowed because I only started farming in 2006.
I can't see how you can say I can decide my own calendar year?

20silkcut

Your probably wondering why I'm still expanding having started in 2006. I did not own cattle till 2012.
2006-12 I was reclaiming land repairing yards sheds lived it up a bit etc.

Water John

Might be a broad statement, but I think a lot of farm accountants are very average. You tend to have to come to them with ideas and options not the other way around. They simply file and return your tax liability. Little tax planning.

freedominacup

Water John wrote: »

Might be a broad statement, but I think a lot of farm accountants are very average. You tend to have to come to them with ideas and options not the other way around. They simply file and return your tax liability. Little tax planning.

I was just going to post something similar.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Lol.
Durability and price definitely yes...but repairs NO!

Let's consider them, for research purposes, as disposable.

Far be it for me to disagree:pac: