Preferred lies

Russman

Hi all,

With winter rules almost upon us :eek:, can someone clarify something for me with regard to placing and preferred lies ?

When placing is in operation and you have 6 inches or a scorecard or whatever radius, in which to place, when you mark the ball, clean it, and place it, if the ball settles a little in the grass or topples a little when you let go of it, does the player have to re-place it, or is it in play once you let go of it ?
I'm just thinking of winter conditions and the grass being longer than normal and quite often the ball will nestle a bit when placed or perhaps lean a bit to the side etc. Obviously I'm talking about tiny amounts and the ball is still well within the allowed 6 inches or scorecard radius.
If the ball stays within the allowed distance, is it simply deemed that its there because of the player's actions in placing it and its in play (albeit it might not be exactly on the spot the player wanted) ?

Might seem a little OCD, but its just something a couple of us were chatting about recently. Basically we didn't want to, in theory, incur a penalty for placing a second time if that's not allowed, nor did we want to incur a penalty for not placing it a second time if we were supposed to !

paulos53

As it is a local rule it is really up to the committee to decide if you can place it more than once.
However if the committee decide to use the R&A's suggested local rule then you can only place it once.
See section b here: http://www.randa.org/Rules-of-Golf/Appendices/Appendix-IPartA-Local-Rules/3-Course-Conditions

EDIT: The R&A wording only applies to fairways so I doubt many Irish clubs use that without modifications. I am also sure most clubs don't actually bother to define what Winter Rules are apart from place within 6 inches

Russman

paulos53 wrote: »

As it is a local rule it is really up to the committee to decide if you can place it more than once.
However if the committee decide to use the R&A's suggested local rule then you can only place it once.
See section b here: http://www.randa.org/Rules-of-Golf/Appendices/Appendix-IPartA-Local-Rules/3-Course-Conditions

EDIT: The R&A wording only applies to fairways so I doubt many Irish clubs use that without modifications. I am also sure most clubs don't actually bother to define what Winter Rules are apart from place within 6 inches

Cheers for that.

So, reading that, and also 20-3d, it seems that if the ball moves immediately after you let go of it, you must replace it, but if it stays still for a split second and then moves, its in play.

"A player may place his ball only once, and it is in play when it has been placed (Rule 20-4). If the ball fails to come to rest on the spot on which it was placed, Rule 20-3d applies. If the ball when placed comes to rest on the spot on which it is placed and it subsequently there is no penalty and the ball must be played as it lies"

I'm not trying to be pedantic, just want to make sure I understand it correctly !

Totally agree that most clubs probably just put up a sign saying "placing"!!

Seve OB

would have thought that when you are placing it, you find as best a lie as you can, then when you pick up your tee (or whatever you have marked the spot with) thats the point the ball is deemed back in play.

Russman

Yeah, having thought about it a bit more, that's what I think too. Basically any settling in the grass the ball does when you remove your grip is deemed part of the placing process ?

ShivasIrons

Seve OB wrote: »

would have thought that when you are placing it, you find as best a lie as you can, then when you pick up your tee (or whatever you have marked the spot with) thats the point the ball is deemed back in play.

This is not the case when replacing a ball, when the ball is at rest the ball is in play, not when the marker is moved.

Telecaster58

Winter Rules are a cheat's charter.

searay

I think winter rules should be standardised to avoid inconsistency and competitions should continue to be qualifying even when you are allowed place or clean and drop in the rough.

If all players use the same rules shouldn't the standard scratch reflect the benefits of placing?

Winter rules make the game more appealing in the winter but as this September has been so wet many clubs will envoke them early and bring an early end to qualifying competitions.

Webbs

searay wrote: »

I think winter rules should be standardised to avoid inconsistency and competitions should continue to be qualifying even when you are allowed place or clean and drop in the rough.

If all players use the same rules shouldn't the standard scratch reflect the benefits of placing?

Winter rules make the game more appealing in the winter but as this September has been so wet many clubs will envoke them early and bring an early end to qualifying competitions.

In that case why not have those place and drop rules for all 12months?

Which group of players do you think would benefit most from having placing?

To me the higher handicap player would be the beneficiary, Firstly they tend to be more wayward so in rough more often and the big advantage comes around the green. Low handicappers will almost to a man/woman say their short game is a big advantage i.e. the ability to get up and down from difficult and awkward lies. If you are allowed to tee it up then this advantage which players have worked v hard to get right is negated

Russman

Webbs wrote: »

In that case why not have those place and drop rules for all 12months?

Which group of players do you think would benefit most from having placing?

To me the higher handicap player would be the beneficiary, Firstly they tend to be more wayward so in rough more often and the big advantage comes around the green. Low handicappers will almost to a man/woman say their short game is a big advantage i.e. the ability to get up and down from difficult and awkward lies. If you are allowed to tee it up then this advantage which players have worked v hard to get right is negated

Absolutely, the handicap system would be completely screwed up if some clubs had LCP all year round. IMO preferred lies in the winter make your scores completely meaningless with regard to handicap or ability. Guys can often hit woods or drivers from the rough, the short game is easier with placing, its so far removed from "normal" golf its not funny. You'd end up with a guy off 9 in a club that places all year, being many shots worse in ability than a guy off 9 in a club that plays it down all year round.

searay

Webbs wrote: »

In that case why not have those place and drop rules for all 12months?

Which group of players do you think would benefit most from having placing?

To me the higher handicap player would be the beneficiary, Firstly they tend to be more wayward so in rough more often and the big advantage comes around the green. Low handicappers will almost to a man/woman say their short game is a big advantage i.e. the ability to get up and down from difficult and awkward lies. If you are allowed to tee it up then this advantage which players have worked v hard to get right is negated

I play in a typical midlands course that tends to be very soft in the winter, and we've had spells in July where the ground gets sodden.

The purpose of "winter rules" should be to make conditions fair and enjoyable for all.

I played in an open team of four last week in Killeen castle where they had placing everywhere and rake and place in the bunkers because the previous day had been a downpour. It made the game a lot more enjoyable and the scores probably reflected that.

Low handicappers are probably better skilled to cope with wet conditions and high handicappers would benefit more, however if they do come out as winners, I think they should get cut accordingly so it balances out.

Russman

searay wrote: »

however if they do come out as winners, I think they should get cut accordingly so it balances out.

Not to venture too far off topic, but your handicap is supposed to be against the course, not against the "field" that's playing that day. Winning doesn't equal a cut.
Someone breaking CSS with the advantage of placing everywhere surely can't equate to a similar player on a course with no placing ? At least placing on fairways only lets you run counting competitions, so I suppose that's something. Although with all the rain today I dread to think what our place will be like on Saturday, could easily be full-on winter rules :mad:! No more 0.1s, sorry, cuts, I mean cuts !


Anyway, somewhat OT, when you release your fingers from the ball when placing it, and the ball immediately settles into the grass, are you obliged to re-place it or is there a degree of latitude allowed in that the initial settling is part of the placing process ?

slingerz

i think the frustration with winter rules comes about as once it comes in the competitions are won by people with big handicaps who are nowhere to be seen in counting competitions. This is the case all the time in my club anyway

searay

Russman wrote: »

Not to venture too far off topic, but your handicap is supposed to be against the course, not against the "field" that's playing that day. Winning doesn't equal a cut.
Someone breaking CSS with the advantage of placing everywhere surely can't equate to a similar player on a course with no placing ? At least placing on fairways only lets you run counting competitions, so I suppose that's something. Although with all the rain today I dread to think what our place will be like on Saturday, could easily be full-on winter rules :mad:! No more 0.1s, sorry, cuts, I mean cuts !


CSS is calculated from the recorded scores, so in theory if by having winter rules everybody scored 2/3 shots better CSS should rise by the same and only those who better it get cut. Currently if you are allowed place or drop in the rough, the competition isn't qualifying and handicaps aren't adjusted. In our club that could be for 4 to 6 months of the year depending on how bad the winter is.

I agree that there are some people who feature regularly in the winter and rarely in summer competitions unless it's a major and that's why I feel handicap adjustments should be applied throughout the year to stop people playing the system.

Russman

I'd agree to a small extent. But the guys with big handicaps tend to, almost by definition, be the guys who aren't able to hit it out of summer rough, or miss lots of fairways or can't chip off a bare lie etc. A guy with 2 shots on a hole might in summertime be gouging it 40 yards out of the rough with a wedge, whereas with placing he might get a 3w at it and be up near the green, still with his 2 shots in hand. I know the conditions are the same for everyone but high guys get a bigger boost imo with placing. It's just not reflective of their "true" ability compared to other high guys on a course where maybe they don't need placing.
All on the premise that your handicap is meant to travel with you and not just be for your own course.

HighLine

Here is my club's winter rules regarding placing - http://www.wicklowgolfclub.ie/pdfs/Winter%20Golf%202016.pdf

I think it is well worded and covers all aspects of placing in winter. The placing "through the green" is a little contentious given that it provides for placing in the rough but it was done as a result of it sometimes being hard to determine if rough was semi or full rough.

I still saw some guys placing it up within the margins of a hazard though even after the rule was put up on the noticeboard, in the locker rooms, sent out by email and put on social media!