Destination signage in Irish (split from M17/M18)

Ricta

m17 wrote: »

That work is now complete new signs m6 heading westbound 22/09/17234

Edmund O'Keefe definately will deserve a kick in the ar** for getting all those people lost who are looking for the turn-off for Claregalway.

FatherTed

Ricta wrote: »

Edmund O'Keefe definately will deserve a kick in the ar** for getting all those people lost who are looking for the turn-off for Claregalway.

Right but some suggested here that was because Claregalway is in the Gaeltacht. But isn't Clifden as well? In those signs Clifden is in both languages.

L1011

FatherTed wrote: »

Right but some suggested here that was because Claregalway is in the Gaeltacht. But isn't Clifden as well? In those signs Clifden is in both languages.

It isn't. The connemara gaeltacht stops well short of Clifden.

There was a study done to pare back the gaeltachts - mostly to save money on where udaras has remit - but the outcome horrified many people with interests. Practically all gaeltacht towns would have been excluded, lots of summer schools would have lost their reason to be etc. The entire Galway urban/suburban one was to be deleted.

They're meant to be areas of majority Irish speaking, not areas of desire for majority. I come from a totally nonsense gaeltacht where you won't hear a word except to the grant man or the Irish college kids - but the risk of the loss of those is sufficient for the pretence

Quackster

FatherTed wrote: »

Right but some suggested here that was because Claregalway is in the Gaeltacht. But isn't Clifden as well? In those signs Clifden is in both languages.

If the people of Claregalway so desired, they could request the Co Co to hold a plebiscite, as was done in Dingle a number of years ago, to restore the official legal status of the English name.

plodder

L1011 wrote: »

It isn't. The connemara gaeltacht stops well short of Clifden.

There was a study done to pare back the gaeltachts - mostly to save money on where udaras has remit - but the outcome horrified many people with interests. Practically all gaeltacht towns would have been excluded, lots of summer schools would have lost their reason to be etc. The entire Galway urban/suburban one was to be deleted.

They're meant to be areas of majority Irish speaking, not areas of desire for majority. I come from a totally nonsense gaeltacht where you won't hear a word except to the grant man or the Irish college kids - but the risk of the loss of those is sufficient for the pretence

I don't think Clifden was ever in the Gaeltacht. The town owes its existence to the 19th century tourist industry and was always English speaking afaik.

Sam Russell

plodder wrote: »

I don't think Clifden was ever in the Gaeltacht. The town owes its existence to the 19th century tourist industry and was always English speaking afaik.

I think Clifden was a garrison town. The tourists carried rifles.

Donegal Storm

The font is more of an issue than anything else with the Irish names, even as a fluent speaker I subconsciously skip over the Irish names as full caps lock is obviously more important and imposing than lower case italics. I can definitely foresee the same happening with those signs, its not even a case of people not knowing Baile Chlair, they'll just read the word ORANMORE and nothing else

MayoSalmon

Quackster wrote:

If the people of Claregalway so desired, they could request the Co Co to hold a plebiscite, as was done in Dingle a number of years ago, to restore the official legal status of the English name.

Exactly Dingle businesses had seen a significant drop off of tourists visiting the town because they were getting lost due to the Irish sign name. That was changed and quick sharpe and in the interim before the actual signs were changed I seen that people had written in the English on the sign anyway. People's livelihoods being put in jeopardy because of a bloody Irish sign is madness.

joeKel73

Donegal Storm wrote: »

The font is more of an issue than anything else with the Irish names, even as a fluent speaker I subconsciously skip over the Irish names as full caps lock is obviously more important and imposing than lower case italics. I can definitely foresee the same happening with those signs, its not even a case of people not knowing Baile Chlair, they'll just read the word ORANMORE and nothing else

This. If the "offical" version is Irish they should display it as...

Claregalway
BAILE CHLAIR

Oran Mor
ORANMORE

Give the alternative language version in italics. If they want to encourage the language people will learn more if they can refer to a meaning they understand.

J o e

J o e wrote: »

This. If the "offical" version is Irish they should display it as...

Claregalway
BAILE CHLAIR

Oran Mor
ORANMORE

Give the alternative language version in italics. If they want to encourage the language people will learn more if they can refer to a meaning they understand.

If you're going to do bilingual road signs, do it properly.
Both languages use the same font just different colours.

Middle Man

J o e wrote: »

This. If the "offical" version is Irish they should display it as...

Claregalway
BAILE CHLAIR

Oran Mor
ORANMORE

Give the alternative language version in italics. If they want to encourage the language people will learn more if they can refer to a meaning they understand.

Ok, that would be fair enough - at least it's inclusive of English speaking people.

Aontachtoir

Deleted User wrote: »

J o e wrote: »

This. If the "offical" version is Irish they should display it as...

Claregalway
BAILE CHLAIR

Oran Mor
ORANMORE

Give the alternative language version in italics. If they want to encourage the language people will learn more if they can refer to a meaning they understand.

If you're going to do bilingual road signs, do it properly.
Both languages use the same font just different colours.

This is ideal, and the way it is done in most countries I have been to with bilingual signs. There was a proposal to do something similar in Ireland back in 2013 but it seems to have quietly disappeared.

Aontachtoir

Aontachtoir wrote: »

This is ideal, and the way it is done in most countries I have been to with bilingual signs. There was a proposal to do something similar in Ireland back in 2013 but it seems to have quietly disappeared.

I think it was killed off by the fallout from the recession.

Aontachtoir

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Quackster wrote:

If the people of Claregalway so desired, they could request the Co Co to hold a plebiscite, as was done in Dingle a number of years ago, to restore the official legal status of the English name.

Exactly Dingle businesses had seen a significant drop off of tourists visiting the town because they were getting lost due to the Irish sign name. That was changed and quick sharpe and in the interim before the actual signs were changed I seen that people had written in the English on the sign anyway. People's livelihoods being put in jeopardy because of a bloody Irish sign is madness.

How many people had stopped coming to Dingle? Do we have figures which show this and prove that this drop was exclusively due to a slightly different name on road signs and not due to the global recession kicking off at the time?

Aontachtoir

Deleted User wrote: »

Aontachtoir wrote: »

This is ideal, and the way it is done in most countries I have been to with bilingual signs. There was a proposal to do something similar in Ireland back in 2013 but it seems to have quietly disappeared.

I think it was killed off by the fallout from the recession.

It was a cost-neutral proposal, as signs would only be replaced at the end of their natural lives when they would have to be replaced anyway. It was seemingly held up because the Transport Minister at the time whipped up fears that people who had travelled the roads in this country for decades would suddenly become hopelessly lost and crash into each other overnight if the font on road signs was slightly changed (i.e. he believed making Irish and English equal was a serious safety issue. Can't for the life of me understand why).

lottpaul

Aontachtoir wrote: »

How many people had stopped coming to Dingle? Do we have figures which show this and prove that this drop was exclusively due to a slightly different name on road signs and not due to the global recession kicking off at the time?

I doubt if too many stopped and nowadays all I hear is complaints about traffic, buses etc! But I was once stopped by a tourist as I left Milltown/Dingle graveyard who asked me how far was it to Dingle? She had just driven through it! So there was definitely some confusion.

Re the fonts etc used on motorway signs I remember a thread on this before where suggestions were thrashed out. Am not sure how to post a link but its title was "New Bilingual Road Signs Proposed" from November 2013

sdanseo

J o e wrote: »

This. If the "offical" version is Irish they should display it as...

Claregalway
BAILE CHLAIR

Oran Mor
ORANMORE

Give the alternative language version in italics. If they want to encourage the language people will learn more if they can refer to a meaning they understand.

Illegal. Irish has to come first (but of course, the horrendous font doesn't matter, once it's first :rolleyes: )

The 2013 Proposal with the Turas font was a great idea, would be nice to see that get a kick up the arse.

Link as mentioned above: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057078598

Aontachtoir

J o e wrote: »

Donegal Storm wrote: »

The font is more of an issue than anything else with the Irish names, even as a fluent speaker I subconsciously skip over the Irish names as full caps lock is obviously more important and imposing than lower case italics. I can definitely foresee the same happening with those signs, its not even a case of people not knowing Baile Chlair, they'll just read the word ORANMORE and nothing else

This. If the "offical" version is Irish they should display it as...

Claregalway
BAILE CHLAIR

Oran Mor
ORANMORE

Give the alternative language version in italics. If they want to encourage the language people will learn more if they can refer to a meaning they understand.

I disagree. When it comes to road signage, consistency is key. We should have our two languages in the same order and same font, like in other bilingual countries. Different colours for the languages may be used as necessary as long as they as they are consistent.

Irish signs are for Irish citizens who prefer to use Irish, not to teach Irish to English speakers. This seems to be a recurrent misconception. In fact, if their main purpose was to teach Irish, then leaving English on the signs defeats the purpose. If you present people with two choices, one familiar and the other unfamiliar, your brain will instantly choose the first and ignore the other. In the US, they've had metric on everything for decades, in brackets after the usual pounds and ounces. People see kilos and litres every day, but nobody knows how much they are. It's the way we're wired. How many of us can name every village and town in our area as Gaeilge, although we see their names on road signs (in an oblique, hard-to-read font above the prominent English) every day?

murphaph

J o e wrote: »

This. If the "offical" version is Irish they should display it as...

Claregalway
BAILE CHLAIR

Oran Mor
ORANMORE

Give the alternative language version in italics. If they want to encourage the language people will learn more if they can refer to a meaning they understand.

This is a bad idea. Drive around Wales and you'll see why. In North Wales the Welsh names come first. In South Wales it's generally English. You get half way used to parsing the English name by looking at the lower one in North Wales and then it randomly changes in Powys or somewhere.

Admittedly Wales has the worst bilingual signage I know (same font, same colour) but it's the same problem because a driver gets used to parsing one or the other.

I fully agree that the Scottish way is optimum and the Irish way reasonably ok but the random (to the average driver) omission of English placenames of Gaeltacht towns is just taking it too far and messes up a halfway decent system.

D.L.R.

Its stupid and jarring to have random places with only one name. Everywhere should have a name in each language/font, even if its merely a duplicate. Otherwise it looks messy and slightly confusing.

The language policy in this country is an absolute shambles to be honest. Look how easy Scotland makes it look, but then the UK's signage is light years ahead of ours.

murphaph

D.L.R. wrote: »

Its stupid and jarring to have random places with only one name. Everywhere should have a name in each language/font, even if its merely a duplicate. Otherwise it looks messy and slightly confusing.

The language policy in this country is an absolute shambles to be honest. Look how easy Scotland makes it look, but then the UK's signage is light years ahead of ours.

Wales is worse than Ireland in fairness.

D.L.R.

murphaph wrote: »

Wales is worse than Ireland in fairness.

No way. Not as good as Scotland, but still much better than the ROI. Our signage is truly dreadful.

plodder

D.L.R. wrote: »

Its stupid and jarring to have random places with only one name. Everywhere should have a name in each language/font, even if its merely a duplicate. Otherwise it looks messy and slightly confusing.

Portlaoise is a good example of that. It's not gaeltacht, but it doesn't have an English variant. So, instead of repeating the name in the two different styles, they use this enormous version of the lower case italicised font, which does look weird.

D.L.R.

D.L.R. wrote: »

No way. Not as good as Scotland, but still much better than the ROI. Our signage is truly dreadful.

Yes, whoever decided on ALL CAPITAL letters for the English and italics in lower case only for the Irish, really needs to admit that they've made a real mess of the signs.

murphaph

D.L.R. wrote: »

No way. Not as good as Scotland, but still much better than the ROI. Our signage is truly dreadful.

Sorry I meant in respect of bilingual stuff. Generally the UK has probably the best thought out road signage in the world for sure.

D.L.R.

The newer street signs are awful too. Ugly as sin.

dubhthach

D.L.R. wrote: »

The newer street signs are awful too. Ugly as sin.

Let alone the fact that they translated it to 'Street of the Greek Language'

Aontachtoir

dubhthach wrote: »

D.L.R. wrote: »

The newer street signs are awful too. Ugly as sin.

Let alone the fact that they translated it to 'Street of the Greek Language'

They're the same word in English, surely that means they're the same in Irish too? ;^)
In all seriousness though, I cannot for the life of me understand why there isn't one central translation office staffed by people who actually speak Irish, that the government is obliged to use for translating official items like road signs.

Carawaystick

Dún Laoghaire is the other well known town with no English name.

Although on the signs there's no dot on the i and the a is written with a diffeerent glyph.

I definitely thing for places with no english name, italics should not be used.

Carawaystick

Carawaystick wrote: »

Dún Laoghaire is the other well known town with no English name.

Although on the signs there's no dot on the i and the a is written with a diffeerent glyph.

I definitely thing for places with no english name, italics should not be used.

Well it used to have an English name, but for some reason people don't like to call it Kingstown. :pac:

plodder

Deleted User wrote: »

Well it used to have an English name, but for some reason people don't like to call it Kingstown. :pac:

That could be a reason why they don't repeat the Irish name in the English style. It avoids confronting the question - what is the English name?

sdanseo

plodder wrote: »

That could be a reason why they don't repeat the Irish name in the English style. It avoids confronting the question - what is the English name?

Literal translation would be (O')Leary's Fort.

Cobh is the same. Used to be Queenstown, now known only As Gaeilge, but for whatever reason signs are bilingual because there is an alleged translation of the Irish "An Cóbh" to apparently English "Cobh".

L1011

DL was pretty consistenly Dunleary in English before being monarch'd up. Now writing it like that looks very odd though

dubhthach

Carawaystick wrote: »

Dún Laoghaire is the other well known town with no English name.

Although on the signs there's no dot on the i and the a is written with a diffeerent glyph.

I definitely thing for places with no english name, italics should not be used.

Of course they could get with time and actually adapt spelling reform from the 1950's and go with Dún Laoire, follow example of Laois (Laoighis)

Of course the old angliscation of Dun Leary is perserved in a number of roads such as here:
https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.2961211,-6.1424473,3a,30.9y,21.28h,78.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1smoroxrICF3I-2iEmZF_3hA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

and here:
https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.2947885,-6.1470751,3a,49y,338.72h,71.11t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1spsj01Ne4X_xQFwoZ2bw5Bg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

dubhthach

L1011 wrote: »

DL was pretty consistenly Dunleary in English before being monarch'd up. Now writing it like that looks very odd though

Except if you live on Old Dunleary Road, or Dun Leary Hill that is Of course the area that was known as Dunleary during the 18th and early 19th century is the area around the Purty Kitchen. The Dún itself was probably situated where the bridge goes over the Railway at the BIM office

Carawaystick

Bad transliteration of Irish placenames was an abomination done by ignorant people.

At least we're not like in Belgium where places are signed in one language only, the language of where the sign is placed.

https://www.google.ie/maps/@50.7248427,3.8344312,3a,75y,42.38h,83.15t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1spF55ONRnWwSEcqAwtzdiIA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

The Grammont in the sign in Wallonia, is actually Gerraardsbergen, in Flanders

Aontachtoir

Carawaystick wrote: »

Bad transliteration of Irish placenames was an abomination done by ignorant people.

At least we're not like in Belgium where places are signed in one language only, the language of where the sign is placed.

https://www.google.ie/maps/@50.7248427,3.8344312,3a,75y,42.38h,83.15t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1spF55ONRnWwSEcqAwtzdiIA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

The Grammont in the sign in Wallonia, is actually Gerraardsbergen, in Flanders

Ha, if Belgium is the standard we're setting ourselves to improve upon I don't think we need to worry! :D

Melodeon

plodder wrote: »

Portlaoise is a good example of that. It's not gaeltacht, but it doesn't have an English variant. So, instead of repeating the name in the two different styles, they use this enormous version of the lower case italicised font, which does look weird.

It's still occasionally called Maryborough, although much commonly than it was 20 or 30 years ago.
The name lives on in a housing estate though, Maryborough Village, and a few other places around the town.

L1011

Melodeon wrote: »

It's still occasionally called Maryborough, although much commonly than it was 20 or 30 years ago.
The name lives on in a housing estate though, Maryborough Village, and a few other places around the town.

Probably by people who also use Parsonstown or Mostrim as names still!

plodder

Melodeon wrote: »

It's still occasionally called Maryborough, although much commonly than it was 20 or 30 years ago.
The name lives on in a housing estate though, Maryborough Village, and a few other places around the town.

Very occasionally, I'd say, which is the point really. There would be uproar today if you put Maryborough as the English name on road signs.

I guess there have been several attempts to Gaelicise town names. Some, like Portlaoise succeeded. Others, like Muine Bheag (Bagnalstown) didn't.

L1011

plodder wrote: »

Very occasionally, I'd say, which is the point really. There would be uproar today if you put Maryborough as the English name on road signs.

I guess there have been several attempts to Gaelicise town names. Some, like Portlaoise succeeded. Others, like Muine Bheag (Bagnalstown) didn't.

The total failures would be Newbridge, Navan, Kells and Charleville. Muine Bheag is just about holding on

plodder

L1011 wrote: »

The total failures would be Newbridge, Navan, Kells and Charleville. Muine Bheag is just about holding on

Ha, there must be some interesting stories behind all that. The only reason I know about Muine Bheag, is having met someone from there; they say all the locals call it Bagenalstown, and from what I recall, road signs have both the English and Irish names. Strangely, online maps used by various statutory bodies have it in English only, but google maps has it as Muine Bheag only.

Melodeon

Melodeon wrote: »

It's still occasionally called Maryborough, although much commonly than it was 20 or 30 years ago.
The name lives on in a housing estate though, Maryborough Village, and a few other places around the town.

Quoting myself to make a correction! :rolleyes:

That should have read 'much less commonly than it was 20 or 30 years ago'.

The Maryborough name was in quite common use in my childhood/youth (many years decades ago ), but I've only heard it used for the town name a handful of times over the last 10-20 years.

Freddypaccman

Placenames with no Irish name seem to use the lowercase italicised font instead of the block caps, like Beaumont