Self depreciation and the female cyclist

rollingscone

Stumbled across this in a discussion on my employers internal social media.

https://www.machinesforfreedom.com/blogs/stories/17596692-self-deprecation-and-the-female-cyclist

Worth reading and thinking about.

brownian

That'd be deprecation - quite different to depreciation 8-)

TBH, men do the same thing. Nobody rocks up to a group of other cyclists and says 'eat my dust, lads, I'm on fire'. It's all 'had a few pints', 'legs are shot today' sort of stuff. Anything else would be arrogant/rude.

NamelessPhil

Women will tend to think twice and do it once.

Culturally many women are taught to apologise first even when it's not their fault.

In my many years of experience of riding bikes, you have to better than the average lad to get out, stay with, and ride with a club. In many clubs you may be one of a few or the only woman riding regularly. If you're female and want to keep riding you have to be prepared to put in more work to stay with the bunch. After a while you may get a reputation as being "strong" (sometimes without the unspoken "for a girl"). I've ridden events when I've been one of the first people back after 300km to be told "You did ok for a girl".

rollingscone

I'm typo city these days...early onset senility!

rollingscone

brownian wrote: »

That'd be deprecation - quite different to depreciation 8-)

TBH, men do the same thing. Nobody rocks up to a group of other cyclists and says 'eat my dust, lads, I'm on fire'. It's all 'had a few pints', 'legs are shot today' sort of stuff. Anything else would be arrogant/rude.

Not the same scenario at all.

For a start men are much less likely to not participate which is one of the things that impacts the women's sport at all levels.

Also. You'd be amazed, especially outside of Ireland and the beal bocht.

But I've seen it in training and managerial scenarios in organisations that do traditionally "male" work.

Women are often cosseted and/or browbeaten both as means of constantly reinforcing the idea that they are less equal.

Particularly strong women are set aside as exceptions not aspirational figures.

I've never had to live with that programming but I've managed to take a step back from what's happening and see enough to firmly believe that it is the case.

I mean up until a couple of years ago WSD roadbikes were routinely festooned with flowers. The message being that women aren't strong enough for cycling unless it is somehow feminised i.e. softened for them.

A lot of progress has been made but it's a long long long way to go

tomasrojo

brownian wrote: »

That'd be deprecation - quite different to depreciation 8-)

Actually, self depreciation is probably the original form, and self deprecation a corruption of it, albeit the more standard form now (bit like "amn't" -> "a'n't" -> "aren't")

There really isn't any meaning of "deprecation" (before it started taking on the meaning of "depreciation") that matches its role in the phrase "self deprecation".

Lumen

tomasrojo wrote: »

There really isn't any meaning of "deprecation" (before it started taking on the meaning of "depreciation") that matches its role in the phrase "self deprecation".

That sounded makey-uppy so I looked it up, and apparently depreciation comes from "price" whereas deprecation comes from "prayer" but means essentially "disapprove" (I guess because religion rarely approves of anything worth doing).

tomasrojo

You should know by now that I take my task of using pedantry to fight pedantry very seriously.

rollingscone

Really glad this important topic wasn't sidelined
...

tomasrojo

Yeah, sorry!

StevieGriff

I stopped riding with a number of female friends for this very reason, I couldn't stand the constant "oh you'll be waiting so long for me at the top of hills" and similar unnecessary apologies. Which has probably made me part of the problem?

secman

On the other hand.... a couple of mates did the Kilkenny sportive last weekend and when I rang one if them last Sunday he was all talk about a girl on the spin. She spent the whole sportive riding out front of a group of about 12 guys... one by one she dropped them , Frank barely hung on, she avg over 32 kph for the 100km. NEver once did she ask the guys if they were okay. Frank is an A4 /vet rider, she swore to the guys that she didn't bike race.. .... just to make them feel worse.... turns out she's a triathlete , a very strong rider irrespect of male/ female.

rollingscone

StevieGriff wrote: »

I stopped riding with a number of female friends for this very reason, I couldn't stand the constant "oh you'll be waiting so long for me at the top of hills" and similar unnecessary apologies. Which has probably made me part of the problem?

Not unless you stopped them riding!

iwillhtfu

I don't think gender is relevant in this I think self depreciation is something we all battle with in one guise or another.

We all strive to achieve a standard set out by ourselves at best or at worst a standard set out by social media or athletes we admire.

There will always be those that will over achieve and those that will under achieve. Rating your success or own appreciation is by helping others appreciate themselves.

It's a long walk and some will endure more than others but we'll all end up at the same destination.

Learn to appreciate what you have and you'll never be poor.

Just my 2c.

rollingscone

iwillhtfu wrote: »

I don't think gender is relevant in this I think self depreciation is something we all battle with in one guise or another.

We all strive to achieve a standard set out by ourselves at best or at worst a standard set out by social media or athletes we admire.

There will always be those that will over achieve and those that will under achieve. Rating your success or own appreciation is by helping others appreciate themselves.

It's a long walk and some will endure more than others but we'll all end up at the same destination.

Learn to appreciate what you have and you'll never be poor.

Just my 2c.

You don't think Gender is relevant...

Did you also know that racism is over and poor people are just making excuses.

Is your explanation for the disparity of male/female involvement in the sport based on gravitational waves?

The linked article literally contains an episode of a female elite peloton being disparaged, British cycling left a women's team without a coach so he could play courier to Bradley Wiggins.

I know your next response...because there's more money in the men's sport because...unicorn milk?

If you're on Twitter the @manwhohasitall is a great account to often hilariously understand what women deal with in discourse.

iwillhtfu

rollingscone wrote: »

You don't think Gender is relevant...

Did you also know that racism is over and poor people are just making excuses.

Is your explanation for the disparity of male/female involvement in the sport based on gravitational waves?

The linked article literally contains an episode of a female elite peloton being disparaged, British cycling left a women's team without a coach so he could play courier to Bradley Wiggins.

I know your next response...because there's more money in the men's sport because...unicorn milk?

Have a good day.

tomasrojo

rollingscone wrote: »

If you're on Twitter the @manwhohasitall is a great account to often hilariously understand what women deal with in discourse.

That looks pretty funny. Will follow that.

ford2600

rollingscone wrote: »

You don't think Gender is relevant...

Did you also know that racism is over and poor people are just making excuses.

Is your explanation for the disparity of male/female involvement in the sport based on gravitational waves?

The linked article literally contains an episode of a female elite peloton being disparaged, British cycling left a women's team without a coach so he could play courier to Bradley Wiggins.

I know your next response...because there's more money in the men's sport because...unicorn milk?

If you're on Twitter the @manwhohasitall is a great account to often hilariously understand what women deal with in discourse.

You might get a more useful thread if you linked to relevant Irish data? Having a go at a poster because he finds gender irrelevant in terms of self depreciation based on his experience is hardly fair?

I've played a lot of sports over the years, my sister has won senior all Ireland medals and in my circle and hers I saw no difference in terms of self depreciation/arrogance/meekness whatever. You got all sorts with those groups.

The two ladies in my club I would encounter regularly don't fit in the self depreciation box either. In general the numbers regularly out are way too low, especially in the racing/fast sportive rider groups but seem high in the newbie groups among a certain age profile.

It very rare for a guy girl to be openly confident; I can think of one or two in my experience. One was in secondary school and never stopped talking about how good he was at cycling; he became national champion within 10 years. In college the Kerry lads were pretty cocky; one lifted the Sam Maguire, 4 others won all Irelands also with 3 All Stars in group...


In general terms the gender gap in participation in sport has gone from 50.9% v 39 in 2011 to 48.6% v 41.5%.

Cycling participation levels for males dropped from 8.3% to 7.3% between 2013 and 2015 while females increased from 3.5% to 3.8%.

If someone wants to help increase female participation, start with your club? Organise a newbie group ride, run a basic maintenance class, roadcraft class, whatever.

smacl

iwillhtfu wrote: »

I don't think gender is relevant in this I think self depreciation is something we all battle with in one guise or another.

I agree to a large extent, but I'd say that the blocking factor to participation for many people regardless of gender is fear of being able to keep up and fear of holding other people back. For the same age men on average will be physically stronger, so for mixed groups of men and women this can be more of an issue for women. This gets compounded if the group in question is mostly men who have a competitive attitude. Heading out with a group where you're the weakest can be demoralising (says he as the bloke who is invariably at the back irrespective of gender).

Eamonnator

smacl wrote: »

Heading out with a group where you're the weakest can be demoralising (says he as the bloke who is invariably at the back irrespective of gender).

And there you have it: self deprecation at it's best.

NamelessPhil

I think there is no issue with starting newbie groups, the issue is with progression.

The same issue is prevalent in racing, there is usually just one "Ladies" race with no segregation between grades, i.e. the National champions will be racing in a group with all standards just by virtue of the fact that they are of the same gender. That doesn't happen in male racing. Yes a woman can select A4 or A3 but it's moot. There are no points available to allow upgrades. Yet we have to be grateful that there is a "Ladies" race at all.

smacl

Eamonnator wrote: »

And there you have it: self deprecation at it's best.

Only if its not accurate

eeeee

NamelessPhil wrote: »

I think there is no issue with starting newbie groups, the issue is with progression.

The same issue is prevalent in racing, there is usually just one "Ladies" race with no segregation between grades, i.e. the National champions will be racing in a group with all standards just by virtue of the fact that they are of the same gender. That doesn't happen in male racing. Yes a woman can select A4 or A3 but it's moot. There are no points available to allow upgrades. Yet we have to be grateful that there is a "Ladies" race at all.

That's changing for next year, there are going to intermediate races to cater for the gap between beginner leagues and the National Series.
There were eruptions at the Women's Commission AGM and the Women's Forum last Sunday, with CI president declaring that they couldn't fill the quote for the worlds because there aren't any other women at Lydia's level to to to the worlds...have a look at who's going to the men's race..it's a joke. It was patently obvious he hadn't a clue.

Anyway it was a really positive meeting overall, lots of things are happening next year to develop women's racing on the road. Interestingly. 20% of female full competition license holders race the nationals, but only 4% of male full competition license holders race their nationals. So more racing women race at a higher level than the men.
As there are no grades, the standard of the women's peloton is higher.

There are lots of positive things coming up for women's racing next year hopefully.

On the self deprecating thing, it's absolutely a gendered issue, although men can suffer too. But it's almost impossible to ignore gender as performative - you are told what you are, how to behave, speak, not speak, act and not act from before you have the language to articulate what you are. There are umpteen studies out there on how children are treated based on gender, and whether people want to admit it or not, girls are treated differently in terms of what is possible and how they can behave from day one. Look at how virginity is treated and judged for girls and boys for example.

On the bike, I can't say I'm one of them I have to say, I am reasonably confident in my abilities, I am surrounded by a lot of very speedy people! Everyone in my club races, I train and cycle with racing people so it's easier to be the slowest! I never think i'm the fastest on a spin, it's a surprise when it happens, I never think I'm the fastest in a race either, winning is always a surprise to me. I do know I'm strong, definitely, which is fun when commuting!

I guess I would be self deprecating, but much less so than when I started. I fully believed it would take me a couple of years to race, but I started a few months after starting and won my first two races, which was a complete and total surprise to me. I am getting better at not, but I started on track, which is extremely supportive and a lot more balanced than the road. This year at our nationals there were more women than men in every category. The men do significantly outnumber the women day to day though.

Chuchote

Don't worry about self-deprecation; you'll get plenty of deprecation from others if you hang around with men.

carltonleon

Funnily enough, We are bringing one of our underage girls team to the Ladies All-Ireland final on Sunday. I told 2 lads that I work with that I was going and the response I got was amazement and a comment of "Women's Sport is rubbish'. So I actually asked when was the last time that they had watched a ladies GAA match and the response this time was "I have never watched one". So how do you know it is rubbish ? ... "I just know"...
Bizarre I thought but there does appear to be that stereotype out there. Look at Ladies GAA or Women's soccer for example, the improvement in those games over the last 8 to 10 years has been superb.
I have been on many a sportive and some of the women have been phenomenal cyclists as have some of the men. Of course there are cyclists that struggle, both male and female, but to judge a participant by their sex is very short sighted and could well leave you looking a little foolish