My vegan friend and I are falling out! HELP!

hal9550

Upfront and honest: i am not a vegan. fully respect those that are but im also equally committed to my own lifestyle

The situation is a friend has converted to veganism in the last few months, and of course i fully commend her and consider myself supportive of her decision. This is a genuinely good friend of mine and i would honestly like our relationship to remain that way. The trouble is she has become very much extreme in her aggressive attitude to several pals (including me), over our continued consumption and use of animal products.

This began as i expected. I am passionate about several things in my life (atheism, left wing politics, fitness, soccer etc), and i often will introduce topics related to these things in sessions and get together's with friends. So my friend would obviously discuss vegan issues, and the benefits of the vegan lifestyle in terms of ethics and health. I would also add that since this is a good friend, we have all made efforts to make her feel more welcome when she is around for tea etc (Soya Milk which i like anyway, non dairy butter), and if we are eating out we always double check that the menu was suitable for everyone. I genuinely thought this would be sufficient.

The trouble is that she has begun to genuinely insult those around her over animal products. It can be for drinking coffee with milk, wearing a leather belt or shoes, and obviously when it comes to eating meat, the gloves which are already pretty absent, come straight off. I love a good debate as much as the next man, but her latest argument was pretty horrendous and effectively ruined a night out.

I (platonic-ally) love this girl and usually attempt to mediate but it is becoming quite tricky as, and i have to be honest, I now feel she is totally out of order on many occasions. It seems a night/day-out cannot take place without her attacking friends that use animal products, and one personal friend has now stated he wont go out in future if she is invited.

I feel a serious clash is going to occur with her on one side and everyone else on the other. I have attempted to discuss this with her. However her attitude is that if she loses friends so be it, her principles are sacrosanct. Not wishing to insult any member of boards, i would honestly have to say i find her entire attitude to other peoples use of animal products to be bordering on a form of extremism. Her stance on genuinely not caring about losing friends is actually shocking and really took me back.

Does anyone have any suggestions on what i can do. Im still in her good camp as of last weekend, but I would have to say, that wont remain the case. I have attempted to criticize her but to no avail, and despite promises not to, in her words, 'make a big deal of anything' before we go out, she always does. I should also like to point out that she is always (and i mean always) the culprit. no one in our circle of friends provokes or attacks her position, but meal times are becoming impossible, and when drink is involved it really hits heavy. Happy to give more information if required but i think i covered enough in an opening post

Thanks in advance

Tar.Aldarion

I think it's pretty common for somebody newly vegan to be angry at others, you suddenly have come to the conclusion that what you were doing was killing others on a massive scale and you have changed to stop doing that, it's so obvious, why can't others? But now everybody you love and care about is still doing that and it hurts you. It's a hard position to be in because with her zeal she is being alienating and unreasonable. Plus she won't listen to you when you talk to her. Also I'd like to say you've been very accommodating and a good friend, and clearly care about this person.

There are two things to do, continue to try and talk to her, talk like you have in this post maybe even show it to her, she may not realise but even most vegans won't want to be around her if continues to act like that, and if nobody wants to be around her how can she help animals? She needs to come to the conclusion herself that being a good example of somebody being vegan will help others more than anything, and alienating your friends does nothing. People in her life will always not be like her, she won't function if she can't accept that. By being like that she is doing a a disservice to animals.

The second thing is just to help her to come to that conclusion, maybe even when you give her a present or some resources make it along those lines? This new book does a great job of explaining how to be a pragmatic vegan and to be reasonable with others is the best thing to do. https://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Create-Vegan-World-Pragmatic/dp/1590565703/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1506070842&sr=8-1&keywords=how+to+create+a+vegan+world

The guy also has a blog here she can read http://veganstrategist.org/

Basically her being more reasonable should help her with her goals and at the same time be better for those around her.

I'm also pretty useless at advice so maybe post to a more general relationship issues place or to reddit that is more active than here: https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/ (Actually even having a place like there for her to talk to other vegans would be good, she is probably pretty isolated now)

zoobizoo

Jaysus....

Her principles are more important to her than her friendships - that's for her to decide but it's a very black and white way to see the world.

And she'll fall out with a lot of people because of her attitude - not that she has decided to be be vegan, but for her insistence that others do also.


Can you imagine someone going on a diet and then arguing with everyone around them who was eating sugar / carbs / more calories.

You can only change yourself and explain your ideas to other people - you can't expect them to change because you have.


I tend not to be friends with intolerant people and with extremists....

hal9550

Hi guys id like to thank those who offered opinions, i really appreciate it.

The idea of what she must be going through with her decision being highly ethical, and leading to the obvious question on why cant others do likewise is very helpful in understanding her position. As to your recommendation on the books and blogs, im genuinely nervous as to a possible back lash but i think i will certainly give it a go. I only hope she sees it as a genuine attempt at mediation, and not an 'attack' or criticism on her own position and ethos. The trouble is her passion seems to be blinding her to the obvious fact that people tend to have different outlooks and opinions on every issue of consequence. as a genuine atheist, for example, iv often had interesting and tricky conversations/debates with theists on many issues. However i would honestly say i chose my words carefully as its never my intention to hurt anyone, nor insult their life choices. these discussions would also be the exception to the rule and occur very rarely

Tar.Aldarion: your point on her doing a disservice to her own cause is actually very poignant, as one of our number has alternated between a kinda vegitarianism(no red meats or foul, by all means correct me if my terminology is incorrect) and a very limited use of meats, over the course of a few decades at this stage. She was actually quite interested shortly after the friend in question went Vegan. However i dont think its an exaggeration to say that the type of belligerent attitude that is often put forward has actually dissuaded her from considering veganism as an option

I would welcome any further suggestions anyone has, and i will probably reply and let you know how i get on. My plan at this moment is to try chatting, and perhaps get that book as a genuine olive branch. The latest 'session' wasnt quite as bad as we collectively decided to have dinner at home before meeting up, probably to avoid any uncomfortable moments at the dining table. However again i just cant see her logic in meeting in a pub every week and criticizing friends, making down right nasty under hand comments, and genuinely acting as though all of this is absolutely necessary and far more important than the feelings of those around her.

But i will have the talk and report back! and please feel free to comment, regardless of interpretations or sides in this discussion. my own position is not to fall out or give up but again, i just can't continue to defend her, as I feel its going too far.

zoobizoo

Rather than recommending the blog to her, why not read it yourself and quote it "well in X blog they talk about XXXX"

hal9550

zoobizoo wrote: »

Rather than recommending the blog to her, why not read it yourself and quote it "well in X blog they talk about XXXX"

im currently doing just that - reading various blogs where vegans say they have fallen out with non vegan friends. I have to say i find it rather worrying as many of the cases seem to be pretty blunt. i.e. where fellow vegans commend them and argue that the friends involved werent true friends. I would honestly not like to believe that is the case here

However the other theme seems to bare no resemblance at all, as no one in our group has attacked, jeered, sneered, or belittled her decision. there seems to be a lot of situations where that is the case, and it certainly doesn't apply. Beyond asking questions (e.g. is this desert ok? what about this? how do you find soya yogurt, etc etc), no one behaved poorly.

Il keep reading.

s7ryf3925pivug

Strongly agree that the best way of advocating veganism and vegetarianism is by example, and by not propigating saw style stereotypes that put a lot of people off.
I also encountered far more people angrily bashing the lifestyles than I did militant vegans or vegetarians. I never actually encountered the sort of behaviour you're describing in real life.

I would make the point that she's undermining her cause, but I wouldn't push it or expect to get anywhere with it. After that I reckon a polite refusal to engage might be a better option. Guessing it might not be possible at a meal so maybe do something else to socialise with her. Just tell her it's not fun eating with her, and leave her out of meals if she continues. It's reasonable to exclude her from a meal if she spoils them.

zoobizoo

We gave up inviting certain friends who were rude to waiters to dinner.

They ruined an evening out.

If your friend stops being someone who makes an evening enjoyable then stop inviting them.

hal9550

Alicia Itchy Gravel wrote: »

Strongly agree that the best way of advocating veganism and vegetarianism is by example, and by not propigating saw style stereotypes that put a lot of people off.
I also encountered far more people angrily bashing the lifestyles than I did militant vegans or vegetarians. I never actually encountered the sort of behaviour you're describing in real life.

I would make the point that she's undermining her cause, but I wouldn't push it or expect to get anywhere with it. After that I reckon a polite refusal to engage might be a better option. Guessing it might not be possible at a meal so maybe do something else to socialise with her. Just tell her it's not fun eating with her, and leave her out of meals if she continues. It's reasonable to exclude her from a meal if she spoils them.

Thanks again for the opinions folks. I personally would like to avoid an outright exclusion from dinner as it seems to me to be a borderline nasty way to end the situation. That said among the group there is a genuine feeling that it will come to that. One of the single biggest issues every one seems to have seems to be from a few weeks back. One of our number did INSANELY well in college, and wanted to celebrate with a meal. My vegan friend turned the night into an almost crusade-like argument with him (exclusively him at first then involved everyone present), at the dinner table. It was such poor form, and was probably the moment where i decided to search for opinions on what to do. Along with this particular incident there is also a genuine feeling that discussions on veganism and the animal industry's effect on the environment are now occurring far to often, mainly given the tone said conversations usually take. Dont get me wrong, we have generally engaged with discussions on these matters, as we are a pretty vocal and engaging group of mates. The tone is the problem. Its not offering information, it is almost assigning blame, and the underhand comments that inevitably follow always destroy the atmosphere.

Anyway im meeting on saturday, one to one with her, and i have done some reading as you folks suggested. Im also going to bring a bit of general diplomacy into this, and highlight that effectively, 'different strokes for different folks'. Iv ordered the book mentioned so im hoping that as an olive branch, it smooths the conversation. My main 'thesis' on how she should continue is to lead by example. I admire passion and will certainly highlight this, but i will be fair in criticizing her recent behavior on nights out. Having strong beliefs is admirable as is being ethical and passionate. However i will highlight several instances, including the night out mentioned above as examples where i genuinely believe things have gone to far. I will also give many examples of situations i have experienced where although feeling strongly negative about an opinion on offer, i remained cool headed and refused to damage my own position by engaging in insults and name calling.

Again i welcome any opinions you folks have and thanks to everyone for helping out! I will let you guys know!

Thanks again and wish me luck!

Tar.Aldarion

You've really gone above and beyond trying to resolve this amicably, best of luck. I hope they friendship can be repaired and that she realises she can't browbeat compassion into another human. She should also realise not one thing made her go vegan but likely many things over years that she has done and thought about, she shouldn't expect to change people easily from something they and the world perceive as normal.


Anyway, in the end the way she talks to others has more impact than any personal effort she does will ever have:

hal9550

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

You've really gone above and beyond trying to resolve this amicably, best of luck. I hope they friendship can be repaired and that she realises she can't browbeat compassion into another human. She should also realise not one thing made her go vegan but likely many things over years that she has done and thought about, she shouldn't expect to change people easily from something they and the world perceive as normal.


Anyway, in the end the way she talks to others has more impact than any personal effort she does will ever have:

Really appreciate everyone's advice, il let ye know how i get on! if anyone has an other suggestions please feel free to post! thanks guys

Tar.Aldarion

If you want other opinions the best place to post is here https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan

hal9550

Well i said i would pop back and update you folks on the way things worked out.

Unfortunately its not good.

A private conversation did seem to make progress, at first. It seemed as though she began to realize that despite her own principles and ethics being important to her, the arguments and insults were not appropriate. I suggested simply accepting that while we are all 100% respectful of her decision, she could at the very least accept that not everyone is willing to make the same decision in regards to veganism. And she agreed!

Thought/hoped that would be that.

Alas, on a night out we had (about a month ago), i could tell she was totally uncomfortable. Despite not eating out as a complete group, she couldnt resist bringing up the topic of dinner, and what we had all had. She then began to list 'side effects' of our choices of cuisine. One of our number had enjoyed some japanese food, which led to what i can only describe as a 'Rant' about japans treatment of marine wildlife (Note: i have done my homework on this, and it seems there are genuine issues).. Again we attempted to calm things down, with one of our number genuinely stating that

• The tone of these chats always end with insults and her attacking everyone's personal choices
• That regardless of her beliefs, these 'attacks' and underhand comments were ruining nights out
• He ended by genuinely and PLEADINGLY asking her to once and for all agree to disagree..
• We all immediately jumped in and agreed that we would avoid 'group dining' in restaurants that made her uncomfortable

This genuine olive branch sparked a vitriolic outburst, in which we were all labeled hypocrites, and for some reason, I PERSONALLY was labelled as the main culprit. She said that it was clear i was the 'group spokesman' for this 'MEAT EATING CLUB', and said i was obviously sent by them to 'shut her up' once and for all


What followed as a terrible argument, and although i tried not to let things get to me, i did honestly stand up for myself. That said, we have basically drifted apart. Only chat infrequently on text now and, as i recently began dating a lady, i have had other things on my mind.


One of my friends did meet up with her for coffee but she refuses to listen to any advice or accept that what happened could, in my mind, have been so easily avoided.


Anyway guys, id be interested in anything you have to advise.. but im shelving it for now. I dont like the way things have gone but there is little i can do:(

Ken.

Life is way too short to be putting up with sh!t like that from anyone at any time. When someone gets themselves worked up like that over anything it's time to cut them lose.

Tar.Aldarion

Honestly, there is little you can do, maybe just give it time until the zeal fades? Right no even other vegans won't want to be around this person. I'd avoid them and I'm vegan so. You've put a lot of work in, I guess only time apart or some consequences of their behaviour (losing friends) is what will get through to them because you've tried other avenues.

It's sad that the person trying to help was labelled the worst culprit. It seems to me there is too much frustration, anger and emotion in general right now in this person (pretty common for a new vegan tbh) to not just shelve it like you said.

GL with the lady

zoobizoo

Think you're going to have to write her off until she learns how relationships work.

denismc

The irony is, your vegan friend is turning into a bit of a cow!
Sorry

DivingDuck

I had a friend like this some years back who went from being enjoyable and pleasant company to a one-man rant machine. Every possible topic got turned around to animal abuse and the evils of the various industries— music, TV, mutual friends, technology, even sports. It was like the world's worst superpower. Every terrible stereotype about vegans, he was it.

The thing is, once someone can't talk about anything else and can't allow others to make their own choices for themselves within the bounds of the law, they become impossible to be around unless you agree with them on every single point. It goes from being a perfectly respectable personal ethic to an insufferable obsession that's forced on you at every turn. It doesn't matter if it's diet, politics, childcare, work— whatever. Tolerating obsessive extremism is a big ask for any friend. Too big, IMO.

Eventually I couldn't take any more, and cut the guy loose. I don't regret it; I do miss him occasionally, but the reality is the guy who was my mate is no longer around. He is now a completely different person— In fact, I've heard from mutual acquaintances that he's even more intense and unbearable about it than before.

My advice is to walk away at this stage. Maybe she will mellow out a little over time, and maybe she won't, but you've done all you can to encourage her to retain her friendships while still allowing your other friends their autonomy. There really isn't anything more you can or are obligated to do.

Think it's unfair to frame this as a vegan problem. It's clearly an arsehole problem.

Ken.

Deleted User wrote: »

Think it's unfair to frame this as a vegan problem. It's clearly an arsehole problem.

Yeah, I'd like to clarify my post as nothing to do with Vegans. I meant arseholes in general that drag you down.

DivingDuck

Deleted User wrote: »

Think it's unfair to frame this as a vegan problem. It's clearly an arsehole problem.

Accurate. Aside the chap described in my post above, I've had one or two other vegan friends and tons of veggie friends, all of whom were respectful of other people's choices and behaviour. This girl's attitude is not reasonable or representative of everyone.

Is this really the first time she's shown such blatant disregard for the people around her? How long have you been friends?

_Brian

Let her know your there for her and take a step back.

Best take a step back and let her get over this initial infatuation she has for her veganism, when she settles in she will likely be easier to get on with.

alan partridge aha

Just move on a forget about her. No one should have to listen to this carp. She's no friend just a silly wagonette.

hal9550

Hey folks

To answer the above question iv known this lady for a number of years, since college, but for recent years we have been GREAT friends. Our friendship survived when she broke up with a pal, and like i outlined in my opening post, its platonic genuine admiration and friendship (at least it was:()

Well to summarize how i fell i could compare my friends embracing of veganism to my own path in moving away from Christianity, and embracing atheism.

<PLEASE NOTE this is simply my opinion on someone embracing an ethos that contradicts the 'populist/general' opinion on a particular - it is NOT meant as a bait or an attempt to cause argument, but to simply illustrate my frustration with my friends attitude to non-veganism>

From my early teens i began to doubt my faith. At first it was a creeping feeling that what i was being told in relation to biblical teachings, was probably to a certain degree untrue. I would say at some point, i disconnected from Catholicism, and then from christianity as a whole. Eventually, through reading and discussing things with others i made a fundamental leap, and became an Atheist. (Flirted as an agnostic but then made the larger step). As i stated in a previous post i have since come to a realization that im a passionate atheist. I generally become very angry when i hear of problems that religion has caused. In my opinion religion has intensified conflicts in the middle east. In relation to homosexuality and LGBTQ issues, Christianity continues to highlight that these 'lifestyle choices' (blood boils when that term is used), are inherently sinful etc etc

the point is.. i GET PASSION.. which is why when my friend embraced Veganism i was 10000% behind her, almost proud you might say.

My biggest criticism of her has nothing to do with veganism. nothing what so ever. heck i admit that her more cogent chats have made me stop and consider things. my criticism is that she cannot and will not place these beliefs aside, and accept that not everyone will agree.

As an atheist, if i took her approach in my dealings with theists, i would have no friends. and i FREELY ADMIT, i would not deserve any. Almost all of my close friends are theists and many are genuine practicing Catholics.. If i ranted and attacked them at social gatherings id be justifiably vilified..

What hurt me was that in her attack on me, as the 'spokes person' of the group, she mentioned my above belief and actually called me a hypocrite and a coward for not being as forward in my belief system as she is in hers.

hal9550

again though i want to say thanks for everyone offering an opinion. I was tempted not to update the thread, hence the long gap between posts:o

Also id have to agree i think Veganism itself, doesnt have anything to do with this. I dont know if it is a militant faction she is interacting with, or an inability to realize that this is not the right way to conduct herself.. i for one respect veganism, and the people on here iv interacted with are incredibly respectful

Tar.Aldarion

Thanks for updating, I really wanted to know tbh! I was the same with becoming atheist at a young age, it was worse with anger regarding veganism because of all the deaths and it is in your face all the time. You are derided for doing something you find difficult to do, just because you think it is the right thing. It wears you down. You see people loving their dogs or cats and condemn cultures eating them when other animals are no different, pigs are smarter and so on. Kill a dog, go to jail, kill a pig be lauded. You get frustrated.

It's why I wouldn't write her off immediately, it makes you ANGRY because it's people you care about doing it too, everybody is. It's a norm so permeating it doesn't even seem like there is a choice being made.

This is a really good video a person on reddit made about what it feels like!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poxl0K9UrP0

But as you have picked up, it's not got much to do with veganism itself, it's more like she has poor social skills or tact, or well regard for others ironically.

hal9550

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

This is a really good video a person on reddit made about what it feels like!

Heya

So i watched that video twice through and i have mixed feelings on it

• If it is meant as an expose on what it feels like to be a vegan in a non vegan world then i would absolutely say it makes its case very vividly. It would be horrific to be faced with that level of gross indecency on a daily basis.. As someone who studied feminism and political science i was effectively 'jaw dropped' for most of my first viewing, although the message began to be clear. and was clear on a second viewing. If this is how my friend sees us, i genuinely begin to see her point of view

• If it is equating rape to the animal industry, then respectfully, i would disagree. I genuinely dont think it is a fair comparison, with all due respect

Look its not, nor was it ever my wish, to debate the issues of veganism on this thread. Im respectful of my friend, and your viewpoint on animal treatment and the meat industry. I simply dont agree with it. I consider myself to be a moral person, and liberal on most if not all social issues.



In the early days (very early days), of my friends embracing of veganism i watched documentaries with her. One in particular was very poignant, Earthlings. It was an eye opener for me. However it genuinely didnt convert me to veganism. My friend brought it up that night, and stated that im a sociopath for the very reason that after viewing that film, i didnt convert to veganism. That said it did have an impact on me and i realized that perhaps i am on the wrong side of history in this debate..



It could be as my Philosophy lecturer stated, that today's liberal is tomorrows conservative. The most liberal politician of the 19th century would never have endorsed LGBT marriage equality. The mention of how slavery was once legal, was also VERY poignant, and i get it. so perhaps im not liberal by tomorrows standards. Perhaps the future is indeed vegan. As a fan of speculative sci fi i wonder whether cloning, and other technologies could be used to entirely supplant the meat industry. I honestly dont know.


As a piece of social commentary that film was INCREDIBLY well made, and while i wouldnt agree with the comparison, i admit it definitely made me think. and i thank you for it.



Can i also say that the way that you broached the topic was very respectful and i take everything you have said and shown me on board. I genuinely wish my friend was that way in her dealings with the group.

Tar.Aldarion

I don't mean to bring up things to take away from your issue with your friend or to debate anything. The short was not equating the acts (even if you break it down to basic autonomy), it just takes this concept of something we all agree is wrong to make its point and merely is a vehicle to help you understand how she sees the world now (and why it is difficult for her). It also doesn't change the fact that she is not going about things in a healthy way to you, your friends or herself.

You don't judge people for following the standards set for them by societal upbringing - they are doing what society deems is right, she needs to remember that before she was vegan she was non-vegan, we all were. It wasn't just one thing that made her change her mind and flip, even if there was a moment where it all escalated in a crescendo, that moment was formed through interactions and new knowledge/reflection throughout her whole life, pieces of a puzzle. To her it probably seems like she suddenly saw this injustice and changed, why can't everybody, but it wasn't that - it's simply not how people work.

To put it in perspective with my story. I am from the countryside, so pretty much all farmland, I grew up around cows and being around them made me realise they were the same as dogs really, had personalities, liked to play, loved being rubbed and were quite goofy nice animals. From being a child I had a predisposition to not harm them. Yet it took me decades to become vegan. It haunted me that they were all being killed and I'd not be seeing them again, over and over this would happen, even dairy cows being killed. Or they would give birth and their child was taken and they would be howling.
When I stopped eating meat as a teen (some ten years later) I came back to visit that usual field next to my house to have a chat with them, was a starry quiet night, silent. Not even a breeze.

I just said I wasn't taking part in it anymore and I'm sorry for what we do to you guys, what I've done. They stood there silently, just looking at me and sniffing, a few dozen. I wasn't vegan then, just vegetarian, I hadn't really stopped harming them. We hung out for a bit. I never felt worse than thinking of what was in store for them or for my part in it but I never felt better than when I stopped eating animals and met them at that moment, to just let them know that, even if they couldn't understand.

It was another decade before I became vegan, I railed against it being the right thing, it was extreme, too hard, nonsensical. Even then when I became vegan I realised well, I still harm animals, and people and we are all just doing our best to be good to those around us, it's easier or harder for other people, and well of course people will disagree with your views too. There are different paths for different people. I don't tell you this as something to debate, the point of all that is that it took decades for somebody predisposed to be vegan from childhood to do so, and this person thinks it will happen easily for all her friends? Are the whole world sociopaths?

She needs to reflect and think what it was like for her her whole life, that it wasn't that she just learned information and was robotically flipped into being vegan by mere vulcan logic. I'm not sure of how to get this idea across to your friend, so to reiterate, she probably needs time and to learn more about what she does, and it doesn't seem like something you can rush, even though you are trying really well to solve things. She might do well from hanging around other vegans to learn from the experience. I hope she does come around for you.


Btw you menttioned cloning of meat as a sci-fi aside, that is currently in development and a few companies are aiming for market in 2019 initially. One company has a video where they are eating chicken and the chicken it stems from (pardon the pun) is hanging out with them, alive and kicking. Quite surreal.