Pilot Ages

adam88

Mod note: Posts mostly or entirely on pilot age have been moved from the Ryanair cancellation thread

Someone make mentioned a bit back that the experience level within Ryanair must be dropping.
I was in 1c last week when the flight deck needed to relieve themselves. Out came the first officer. Myself and the complete strangers sat next to me looked at each other with total amazement. He genuinely only looked Barely 17. We had a bit of a laugh that the "N" plates must be of good sticky quality to survive the speed lol.
I'm young in my job and I often get that look off people
My question is how young can you be to fly commercially. Hasn't been my first time to see such young first officers
Before anyone jumps down my throat I understand and appreciate that they're qualified and all that lark

L1011

adam88 wrote: »

My question is how young can you be to fly commercially.

18

Easyjet have operated a flight with a combined flight deck age of 45 - http://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/woman-26-easyjet-youngest-pilot-captain/index.html

Tenger

adam88 wrote: »

Someone make mentioned a bit back that the experience level within Ryanair must be dropping.
........................
My question is how young can you be to fly commercially. Hasn't been my first time to see such young first officers
Before anyone jumps down my throat I understand and appreciate that they're qualified and all that lark

Training at a flight school followed by type rating takes approx 18 months (I think) Thus any F/O you see will be approx 19 1/2 yrs old.
I do understand the attitude.
In the other hand I know of an EI captain who still looks in his early 20's. He looked 14 when he joined. I haven't seen him in a few years but he is probably now mid 30's. Experience on several aircraft types and the entire EI network but happens to have magic genes!

1123heavy

adam88 wrote: »

Someone make mentioned a bit back that the experience level within Ryanair must be dropping.
I was in 1c last week when the flight deck needed to relieve themselves. Out came the first officer. Myself and the complete strangers sat next to me looked at each other with total amazement. He genuinely only looked Barely 17. We had a bit of a laugh that the "N" plates must be of good sticky quality to survive the speed lol.
I'm young in my job and I often get that look off people
My question is how young can you be to fly commercially. Hasn't been my first time to see such young first officers
Before anyone jumps down my throat I understand and appreciate that they're qualified and all that lark

As others have stated, 18 is the legal minimum age to hold the license and be employable. Some start their training before that and aim to finish it up not long after their 18th birthday. You also have the cadets who train under the sponsorship of an airline. I was once taught by an ex aer lingus cadet who was flying the Vickers Viscount at the age of 19 back in the day. Quite amazing stuff.

Although as Tenger said, looks can be very deceiving. In my former company we had a gentleman, a first officer, who similar to your scenario did not look past 18, some others in the company commented how he looked like he belonged in a school uniform. Reality was that he was 26 and older than me!

adam88

L1011 wrote: »

18

Easyjet have operated a flight with a combined flight deck age of 45 - http://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/woman-26-easyjet-youngest-pilot-captain/index.html

I'm sidetracking now and I do apologise. But I've a 14 year old brother who is hell bent on becoming a pilot. I wouldn't give him my car to drive 4 years from now never mind a b737

L1011

adam88 wrote: »

I'm sidetracking now and I do apologise. But I've a 14 year old brother who is hell bent on becoming a pilot. I wouldn't give him my car to drive 4 years from now never mind a b737

That 19 year old will have passed through the same training, passed the same exams and done the same medicals as someone who started at 30 or whatever.

The Rape of Lucretia

L1011 wrote: »

That 19 year old will have passed through the same training, passed the same exams and done the same medicals as someone who started at 30 or whatever.

There is still a maturity and experience that comes with being 30 rather than 19, that training, exams, and medicals simply cannot give.

Lapmo_Dancer

L1011 wrote: »

adam88 wrote: »

I'm sidetracking now and I do apologise. But I've a 14 year old brother who is hell bent on becoming a pilot. I wouldn't give him my car to drive 4 years from now never mind a b737

That 19 year old will have passed through the same training, passed the same exams and done the same medicals as someone who started at 30 or whatever.

After quite a few incidents, Emirates have a company restriction of age 34 for upgrade.

1123heavy

Lapmo_Dancer wrote: »

After quite a few incidents, Emirates have a company restriction of age 34 for upgrade.

I think they only have that for the A380 fleet, it was berated by most pilots as stupidity defined and still is. It appeared to have been a knee-jerk reaction to EK521.

What incidents did they have out of interest other than the famous one? Was it found that those incidents were related to the age of the commander and not their experience?

devnull

It could also be argued that if there are incidents with people of a certain age group having bad attitudes working for the company then there needs to be an investigation as to why this is not caught in the recruitment stage.

1123heavy

devnull wrote: »

It could also be argued that if there are incidents with people of a certain age group having bad attitudes working for the company then there needs to be an investigation as to why this is not caught in the recruitment stage.

Any companies I've been in it's the senior captains with the bad attitudes, the young ones are just glad they've a job!

Locker10a

devnull wrote: »

It could also be argued that if there are incidents with people of a certain age group having bad attitudes working for the company then there needs to be an investigation as to why this is not caught in the recruitment stage.

Or it could be argued that Ryanair have the bad attitude, and need to start offering industry standard T&C's for pilots.

devnull

Locker10a wrote: »

Or it could be argued that Ryanair have the bad attitude, and need to start offering industry standard T&C's for pilots.

Unsure of what your point is here.

I was discussing the point that the other person made in relation to Emirates having a policy of only employing Captains that were over 34 years old because they have a bad experience with younger Captains who are in their employment.

If Emirates are having problems with constantly recruiting staff to Captain roles who are not are of the standard that they require then that indicates that their Captain selection process is not fit for purpose and needs reviewing.

Locker10a

devnull wrote: »

Locker10a wrote: »

Or it could be argued that Ryanair have the bad attitude, and need to start offering industry standard T&C's for pilots.

Unsure of what your point is here.

I was discussing the point that the other person made in relation to Emirates having a policy of only employing pilots that were over 34 years old because they have a bad experience with younger pilots who are in their employment.

If Emirates are having problems with constantly recruiting staff who are not are of the standard that they require then that indicates that their pilot selection process is not fit for purpose and needs reviewing.

Ah sorry I mis-read your reply

Brennus335

devnull wrote: »

I was discussing the point that the other person made in relation to Emirates having a policy of only employing pilots that were over 34 years old because they have a bad experience with younger pilots who are in their employment..

No one said they "only employ pilots that were over 34 years old" though. So you misunderstood.
The age limit for command on the 380 is 34. For the 777 it's 32. There's no restriction on FO age.
Completely stupid and pointless rule.

devnull

Brennus335 wrote: »

No one said they "only employ pilots that were over 34 years old" though. So you misunderstood.
The age limit for command on the 380 is 34. For the 777 it's 32. There's no restriction on FO age.
Completely stupid and pointless rule.

So basically it's discrimination based on age at the end of the day however much you want to dress it up, it should be all about skills and suitability for the job, age shouldn't come into it in the same way that gender shouldn't if you ask me.

Also there's a debate to be had about the effect that may have on Crew Resource Management as well as it's almost creating a divide between two age groups in the workplace and that cannot be good if tricky or tough operational situations are encountered. That's for another thread really though.

1123heavy

devnull wrote: »

So basically it's discrimination based on age at the end of the day however much you want to dress it up, it should be all about skills and suitability for the job, age shouldn't come into it in the same way that gender shouldn't if you ask me.

It was nothing other than a knee jerk reaction to the EK 521 incident. They felt they had to be seen to be doing something.

On a separate note about ages. The average pilot age of Bomber Command was 19. I think this alone should settle the notion that professionalism and responsibility are intrinsically tied to age.

View Profile

Bomber Command crews also suffered an extremely high casualty rate: 55,573 killed out of a total of 125,000 aircrew (a 44.4 percent death rate), a further 8,403 were wounded in action and 9,838 became prisoners of war

devnull

1123heavy wrote: »

It was nothing other than a knee jerk reaction to the EK 521 incident. They felt they had to be seen to be doing something.

To be honest I think it can potentially cause more problems than it solves, whilst you are going to have a role of Captain and First Officer and one is higher than another, you need to have an environment where the pilots work as a team when they are flying and when one is monitoring they feel they can speak up if they notice that the other has overlooked something or not noticed something.

I've seen a fair few aviation investigation programmes where you've had sub-standard ex Air Force pilots in other countries promoted to captains on direct entry on Civillian Airlines purely on the basis they were ex Air Force, despite the fact that the First Officer has a better record even if they didn't serve in the Air Force. The First Officer spotted danger but didn't speak up or take control because he was in fear of the Captain due to their status.

Promotion to Captain should be exclusively on the pilots record and abillity and their results in relation to their flying history, creating an organisational divide where older pilots can be captains and younger can't is almost like saying that the young pilots should 'know their place' which surely cannot be helpful when it comes to crew resource management and potentially create a culture saying that essentially the FO isn't old enough to make certain decisions?

Irish Steve

There's a lot more to the CRM issues than just the problems of an age gradient. It's one of the things I picked up very early on when I started flying regularly, and was able to get jump seat visits on a very regular basis with a wide range of carriers, which sparked my interest in going beyond the PPL that I had at that time. CRM had not raised it's head as an issue, there were no MCC courses in those days (late 80's), and there were still a significant number of ex military pilots in some airlines, and direct entry with a frozen ATPL after also completing a CPL/IR was very much an accepted and appropriate route into airline flying.

What became very evident was the different attitudes in different airlines. Some were very rigid, and had a very formal and strict cross cockpit gradient, and in some cases, the First Officer was regarded as almost superfluous to the operation of the flight, to the extent that the modern concept of flying alternate sectors did not exist, the first officer had an almost insignificant role in the conduct of the flight.

At that time, I spent a lot of time commuting around Europe (before getting my own aircraft to do the same to further the CPL plan), and what I noticed was that the atmosphere on the Aer Lingus flight decks (both commuter and main line) was a lot more relaxed than on other carriers, but despite that difference, the professionalism of the Aer Lingus operation was equal to or in some cases higher than other carriers.

At the time, I wasn't aware of the reasons for this, it was only some years later when I became involved (as an external supplier) with the first specific MCC courses for cadets at Aer Lingus that I found out that while there had not been a formal MCC scheme in place, there was a very clear and positive structure in place to encourage the informal professional flight deck atmosphere, and it was very evident that it worked very well.

When I was going through the loops and hoops of CPL (and later ATPL) exam training, we had a lot of discussion about MCC, as it was a very new introduction into the concept of commercial flying, and generated a lot of discussion. What was very thought provoking was the problem of how to manage the cross cockpit barrier that existed in some cultures, where any possible questioning or disagreement with "the captain" was tantamount to mutiny, and in some cases could lead to physical conflict on the flight deck. Another massive issue in some cultures was the "inshalla" attitude, where attempting to prevent what seems to be "the defined fate" was seen as almost blasphemous.

In some airlines, age too was an issue, even more so where the captain was an older ex military pilot, especially where their experience was in single seat fast jets, as they were completely responsible for everything that happened in the aircraft, and had no additional crew members to assist in any way, and they found it very hard to delegate, or (in their eyes) share any flight duties. In some cases, the assistance of the first officer was only tolerated because some controls were physically difficult to reach from the captains seat.

What finally brought things to a head, and was the catalyst for the massive changes that followed was the British Midland crash at Kegworth, where the accident inquiry found that the only person in the crew that was unaware that they'd shut down the wrong engine was the captain. There were other contributory factors that contributed to the severity of the problems, but that event was the catalyst that brought about the regulatory changes that required the additional training and knowledge that subsequently became formally recognised as Multi Crew cooperation.

Now things have moved on even more, with things like the multi crew licence, where the licence only allows operation of the aircraft as part of a multi person crew, so solo flying in a light aircraft is not permissible, mainly because of the massive differences that now exist between the modern jets and traditional older light single engine aircraft.

There has been a lot of change over the last 25 years, some good, some I'm not sure about the validity of the changes, and commercial flying has very definitely changed very significantly over that time, and some of those changes have very much devalued the role of the flight deck crew, as increasing automation has reduced the skills required to perform routine operations.

As for the skills necessary to operate when things go bad, that's probably a subject for discussion in another thread, given the issues that have happened on things like the AF 330, where it became apparent that the people on the flight deck at the start of the incident did not have the full skill set that was needed.

So, I guess that the TL:DR summary goes something like age is not as significant as some might think, as long as the training received by those people is adequate to enable them to perform the task required.

Lapmo_Dancer

1123heavy wrote: »

Lapmo_Dancer wrote: »

After quite a few incidents, Emirates have a company restriction of age 34 for upgrade.

I think they only have that for the A380 fleet, it was berated by most pilots as stupidity defined and still is. It appeared to have been a knee-jerk reaction to EK521.

What incidents did they have out of interest other than the famous one?

Wasn't sure of specifics but found the following on another site. I agree that the age restriction is a ridiculous knee jerk reaction which doesn't attempt to address the obvious deeper issues:


Here is the list of flight crew related events since 2007.

B777 at Auckland on March 22, 2007 Flex takeoff despite reduced runway length
A332 at Birmingham on February 26, 2008 Heavy landing
A345 at Melbourne on March 20, 2009 Tail strike and overrun on takeoff
A388 at Manchester on September 6, 2010 Hard landing
B773 at Hamburg on February 13, 2011 Began takeoff roll without clearance
B773 at Melbourne on November 30, 2011 Took off from unlit runway
A388 at Sydney on January 6, 2012 Runway incursion
A388 at Toronto and Ottawa on June 1, 2012 Weather related hold go-around and diversion Mayday fuel
B773 at Dubai on February 12, 2013 Near collision with fighter aircraft in initial climb
B773 at Melbourne on July 18, 2014 Descended below minimum safe height on approach
A388 over Northern Canada on October 30, 2014 Climbed without clearance, separation not assured
B773 over the Indian Ocean on March 29, 2015 Near miss with EY
A388 at Warsaw on May 20, 2015 Runway excursion on backtrack
A388 over Dubai on October 22, 2015 Loss of separation with helicopter while shooting promotional video
B773 over Canada on March 13, 2016 Diversion and fuel emergency
A388 at Melbourne on July 14, 2016 Descended below minimum assigned altitude
B773 at Dubai on August 3, 2016 Long landing go around without thrust results in runway impact aircraft on fire

A388 over Arabian Sea on January 7, 2017 Wake turbulence sends business jet in uncontrolled descent
B773 over China Urumqi on April 17, 2017 Crew misunderstood instructions and flew at wrong altitude
B773 over China Urumqi on May 18, 2017 Radio communications were cut off
A388 near Mauritius on July 14, 2017 Descended below cleared level causing TCAS resolution
B773 over Africa on August 21, 2017 Allegedly two male crew members had some consensual fun in the flight deck
B773 at Geneva on August 25, 2017 Wakes roof
A388 at Moscow on September 10, 2017 Go around from about 400 feet AGL 8nm before runway

B772 near Hamburg on August 27, 2009 First officer incapacitated
A332 near Dubai on July 5, 2010 Pilot incapacitation
B773 at Dubai on June 25, 2016 Pilot vision impaired

at London on January 1, 2007 Drunk Pilot
at Perth on October 21, 2016 Drunk Pilot refused alcohol test

el tel

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

L1011 wrote: »

That 19 year old will have passed through the same training, passed the same exams and done the same medicals as someone who started at 30 or whatever.

There is still a maturity and experience that comes with being 30 rather than 19, that training, exams, and medicals simply cannot give.

More maturity and life experience might make you a more interesting person to chat with during the cruise but as far as doing the job of flying an aircraft goes, all you need is what the selection, training and exams gave you. Everything else being equal, a 30 year old should be no better than an 19 year old.

kona

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

There is still a maturity and experience that comes with being 30 rather than 19, that training, exams, and medicals simply cannot give.

Ive seen some 30 year olds that act like they are just out of the dribbling stage.

Tenger

View Profile wrote: »

Bomber Command crews also suffered an extremely high casualty rate: 55,573 killed out of a total of 125,000 aircrew (a 44.4 percent death rate), a further 8,403 were wounded in action and 9,838 became prisoners of war

I think this might have been more to do with the German AAA batteries and Luftwaffe fighters than their age and command decisions.

Marcusm

Brennus335 wrote: »

No one said they "only employ pilots that were over 34 years old" though. So you misunderstood.
The age limit for command on the 380 is 34. For the 777 it's 32. There's no restriction on FO age.
Completely stupid and pointless rule.

And those are employment policies which could not be used within EU - should be based on experience and competence and not on age. Too crude a maeasure.

smurfjed

I heard of a few guys this week that are still flying private BBJ/757/767, their respective ages are 72/78/82. I was impressed