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Another insurance question

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  • 18-09-2017 4:40pm
    #1
    Pecarlo1
    Registered Users Posts: 33 ✭


    Hi all,

    I had been on liberty insurance for over 2 years now driving bmw 320cd 2l diesel.

    i have full license 25 years of age and 4 years ncb.
    just after buying a bmw 520d 08 reg. and was just told they do not insure the car to anyone under 30... :eek:

    Now this to me sounds absolute rubbish to start with...
    so i had to cancel as i really like the car and want to get it insured, but then again i'm not looking to be paying over 2 grand at the same time. as my premium for 320d was 980 euro this year, an increase is fine, but not double...

    Long story short i just like to see if there is anyone here with same details as me that has it insured as i dont believe that it can not be insured under 30...
    Thanks in advance
    Tagged:


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    #2
    Sue Pa Key Pa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,060 ✭✭✭Sue Pa Key Pa


    Pecarlo1 wrote: »
    Hi all,

    I had been on liberty insurance for over 2 years now driving bmw 320cd 2l diesel.

    i have full license 25 years of age and 4 years ncb.
    just after buying a bmw 520d 08 reg. and was just told they do not insure the car to anyone under 30... :eek:

    Now this to me sounds absolute rubbish to start with...
    so i had to cancel as i really like the car and want to get it insured, but then again i'm not looking to be paying over 2 grand at the same time. as my premium for 320d was 980 euro this year, an increase is fine, but not double...

    Long story short i just like to see if there is anyone here with same details as me that has it insured as i dont believe that it can not be insured under 30...
    Thanks in advance

    Liberty are legally obliged to offer you (at least) 3rd party cover on any vehicle you own and have a valid licence to drive. Kick it up the food chain


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    #3
    Pecarlo1
    Registered Users Posts: 33 ✭Pecarlo1


    Sue Pa Key Pa wrote: »
    Liberty are legally obliged to offer you (at least) 3rd party cover on any vehicle you own and have a valid licence to drive. Kick it up the food chain


    yes they would probably insure me with a triple premium...

    the best i could find is 1700 from 123. ie


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    #4
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,089 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    Sue Pa Key Pa wrote: »
    Liberty are legally obliged to offer you (at least) 3rd party cover on any vehicle you own and have a valid licence to drive. Kick it up the food chain

    Never heard of it.
    Does that mean that if I get a policy with some insurer on a car, and then buy different car and ring them they are obliged to swap the policy into new car?


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    #5
    Sue Pa Key Pa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,060 ✭✭✭Sue Pa Key Pa


    CiniO wrote: »
    Never heard of it.
    Does that mean that if I get a policy with some insurer on a car, and then buy different car and ring them they are obliged to swap the policy into new car?

    Yes, your current insurer is obliged to offer you 3rd party cover provided you have a licence to drive it, it is roadworthy and it is not against the public interest. Also, they cannot charge a premium that amounts to a declinature.

    They do not have to offer own damage, fire or theft and they can restrict driving to insured only


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    #6
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,089 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    Sue Pa Key Pa wrote: »
    Yes, your current insurer is obliged to offer you 3rd party cover provided you have a licence to drive it, it is roadworthy and it is not against the public interest. Also, they cannot charge a premium that amounts to a declinature.

    They do not have to offer own damage, fire or theft and they can restrict driving to insured only

    That's great to know. Thanks.

    I understand then that as I have a car insured with my current insurer and I buy a 9 seater transit or similar vehicle (which legally is exactly same thing as any other car, but for some reason most insurers refuse to offer cover for vehicles like that for private individuals), then they will be obliged to switch my policy to that vehicle. Would that be correct thinking?

    Obviously I have licence to drive it, it would be roadworthy and not against public interest whatever they might mean by that.


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    #7
    Sue Pa Key Pa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,060 ✭✭✭Sue Pa Key Pa


    CiniO wrote: »
    That's great to know. Thanks.

    I understand then that as I have a car insured with my current insurer and I buy a 9 seater transit or similar vehicle (which legally is exactly same thing as any other car, but for some reason most insurers refuse to offer cover for vehicles like that for private individuals), then they will be obliged to switch my policy to that vehicle. Would that be correct thinking?

    Obviously I have licence to drive it, it would be roadworthy and not against public interest whatever they might mean by that.

    No, if your insurer doesn't insure commercial vehicles, even for private use, they don't have to offer you a quote. Also, they could argue that offering a commercial vehicle quote, where there is no commercial reason for owning such a vehicle, is against the public interest


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    #8
    Pecarlo1
    Registered Users Posts: 33 ✭Pecarlo1


    Sue Pa Key Pa wrote: »
    Yes, your current insurer is obliged to offer you 3rd party cover provided you have a licence to drive it, it is roadworthy and it is not against the public interest. Also, they cannot charge a premium that amounts to a declinature.

    They do not have to offer own damage, fire or theft and they can restrict driving to insured only

    so if i have 2 additional drivers on the policy that mean i can insure it on myself only ?

    what do you mean they cant charge a premium that amounts to a declinature ?


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    #9
    Sue Pa Key Pa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,060 ✭✭✭Sue Pa Key Pa


    Pecarlo1 wrote: »
    so if i have 2 additional drivers on the policy that mean i can insure it on myself only ?

    what do you mean they cant charge a premium that amounts to a declinature ?

    I'm saying that if you force an insurer to honour its obligations, they MAY do so to the letter of the regulations, insured only to drive, 3rd party only, no additional benefits

    They can't quote a stupid premium that is effectively a declinature. They must demonstrate that they apply appropriate loadings comparable to other customers on their books. This will still be a scaldy premium though. If their premium for a 30 year old on that car is X, they could easily double it


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    #10
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,089 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    Sue Pa Key Pa wrote: »
    No, if your insurer doesn't insure commercial vehicles, even for private use, they don't have to offer you a quote. Also, they could argue that offering a commercial vehicle quote, where there is no commercial reason for owning such a vehicle, is against the public interest

    Makes sense to commercial vehicle.
    But vehicle I mentioned is not commercial vehicle.
    I meant passenger vehicle like Ford transit with 9 seats (driver + 8 passengers) which is of EU category M1 (same as any other passenger car or MPV), is taxed privately (and can't be taxed as commercial) and is due NCT not CVRT and can be driven on regular car category B licence like everyone has.

    There was few articles in newspapers, that people were having problems insuring such vehicles for private purposes, as insurers would only insure them for taxi drivers.

    That's why what you mentioned that they are obliged to offer cover if you're changing vehicle should mean they would be forced to insure such vehicle


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    #11
    Pecarlo1
    Registered Users Posts: 33 ✭Pecarlo1


    rang liberty there, was told to good luck.

    Only applies to people that got declined 3 times with different insurers. The underwriters do not insure that car to anyone that is under 30 and that was as far as i got.

    I will prob go for 123. ie so i wont have to put up with the hassle, back to the premium i payd 4 years ago... great country we live in.


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    #12
    Cows Go µ
    Registered Users Posts: 902 ✭✭✭Cows Go µ


    Any time I have had to get an insurer to insure something that they don't want to, I've had to get the 3 declinature letters. On occasion I've got them to quote with just the letters but other times they have made me go to Insurance Ireland and they have been forced into it.

    But the quotes are always ridiculously high


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    #13
    Sue Pa Key Pa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,060 ✭✭✭Sue Pa Key Pa


    Pecarlo1 wrote: »
    rang liberty there, was told to good luck.

    Only applies to people that got declined 3 times with different insurers. The underwriters do not insure that car to anyone that is under 30 and that was as far as i got.

    I will prob go for 123. ie so i wont have to put up with the hassle, back to the premium i payd 4 years ago... great country we live in.

    That's what they do, they hope you will give up. You do not need declinature letters to make them quote you


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    #14
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Sue Pa Key Pa wrote: »
    Liberty are legally obliged to offer you (at least) 3rd party cover on any vehicle you own and have a valid licence to drive. Kick it up the food chain

    No they are not.

    I assume you are talking about the Declined Cases Agreement, it does not have the force of law per se, nor does it require the insurer to offer a quote unless there are three previous refusals - even for an existing customer.


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    #15
    Sue Pa Key Pa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,060 ✭✭✭Sue Pa Key Pa


    I am not referring to the declined cases agreement


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    #16
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Sue Pa Key Pa wrote: »
    I am not referring to the declined cases agreement

    Then what are you referring to?


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    #17
    Liam McPoyle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,846 ✭✭✭✭Liam McPoyle


    GM228 wrote: »
    Then what are you referring to?

    Insurers are legally obliged to offer existing customers a quote unless they can prove that by offering someone a quote there is a risk to the public at large e.g. if someone was convicted of kidnapping and used their car for that purpose. Once the policy holder satisfies all requests from the insurer e.g. returning copies of licence, log book or what ever supplementary information they request they cannot refuse to quote.

    They can put what ever rate they want on it as long as that rate is not tantamount to declining to quote e.g. offering a price for insurance of €10,000.


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    #18
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Business Cat wrote: »
    Insurers are legally obliged to offer existing customers a quote unless they can prove that by offering someone a quote there is a risk to the public at large e.g. if someone was convicted of kidnapping and used their car for that purpose. Once the policy holder satisfies all requests from the insurer e.g. returning copies of licence, log book or what ever supplementary information they request they cannot refuse to quote.

    They can put what ever rate they want on it as long as that rate is not tantamount to declining to quote e.g. offering a price for insurance of €10,000.

    Again there is no legal obligation to do so.

    The parts in bold are both stipulations from the DCA and it would appear that peoples understanding of the DCA gives the belief of a legal requirement to quote an existing customer, this is incorrect, the OP was already told this by their insurer and Insurance Ireland and the Financial Services Ombudsman will also confirm this to be correct.

    The principles of DCA applies to both new and existing customers and the obligation to provide a quote to an existing customer is also subject to the three refusals criteria. Only after that condition is met does the condition that they can't refuse to quote unless contrary to public interest apply.

    http://www.insuranceireland.eu/consumer-information/general-non-life-insurance/motor
    Where an individual has held a policy within the previous three years, the insurance company concerned is obliged to provide the individual with a quotation.  Again this is subject to the proviso that refusals have been received from three insurers (of which the previous insurer may be one).

    The only grounds on which an insurer can refuse cover are where to provide insurance would be contrary to public interest.

    The "where an individual has held a policy within the previous three years" may not be clear the way Insurance Ireland have written it, but it includes current customers, see below.

    Fom the DCA by Lloyds themselves (the agreement was originally made between the Minister for Industry and Commerce and insurance companies and members of the Underwriting Syndicates at Lloyds).
    Lloyds Bulletin Y3128 wrote:
    One requirement is that syndicates writing Irish motor business be bound by the Declined Cases Agreement (DCA). Under this agreement, an insurer (including a Lloyd’s syndicate) cannot refuse to provide an insurance policy carrying with it a Road Traffic Act certificate to an individual proposer who has approached at least three insurers and has not been able to obtain insurance, if the proposer is:

    (a) one of their existing motor policyholders or one who has held a policy with them in the preceding three years; or

    (b) a new proposer, who has not held insurance in his (or her) own name in the preceding three years; except where to provide such a policy would be contrary to the public interest.


    Basically an insurance policy is a contract, you can't compel an insurer to quote on a change of vehicle as this is a change of the terms of the contract and under contract law you can not force a change of contractual conditions without agreement of both parties.

    If one party changes a term of a contract without the agreement of the other then the contract can be canclled by the party who does not agree to the change, look at the recent 3 contract change issues where 100s of customers cancled contracts with no penalties.

    Legislation only dictates the minimum level of cover to be afforded subject to contract law, it dictates what must be afforded at a minimum level, it does not dictate who you must do or contiue to do business with - to do so is a breach of the principles of 100s of years of contract law.

    This was one reason why the DCA was drawn up in 1981 as it was not possible to legislate to force insurers to accept/amend a contract. It specifically applies to both new and existing customers.


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