two products ordered, different models of the same product received.

ban resistant recalcitrant debutant

Interesting consumer issue this.

If a person changes the quantity online from 1 to 2 and purchases two items are they correct to have an expectation that they will receive two identical products?

I did that and received two different products. One was an updated model of the other. I needed both products to be the same and so the two different ones didn't work for me.

However, if a person had received either of the two items individually they'd have had no cause to complain. Both products were acceptable individually and both were compliant with the description on the website. But both were different.

I wanted matched products but do I have a right to insist upon it?

The descriptions online aren't complete. That's why two products can both comply with a description but yet both be different.

The aspects of the products which differ aren't essential aspects of the product.

It'd be like one cup having a capacity of 200ml and a second updated model of the same cup having a capacity of 210ml. The capacity wouldn't have been explicitly stated on the ad, and so the customer couldn't complain.


The company in question did agree to allow me to return the items at no charge. In the real world, I actually ordered a third item which matched up with one of the two I already had and I returned the non-matching item for free.

This issue might affect a parent who had twins and who wanted matching clothing but who receiving non matching clothing.

The question is, if a person changes quantity from 1 to 2 online and purchases products can the customer enforce an expectation that the products should be identical?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

In a word, No .

The clothing analogy is spurious because clothing usually describes pattern, colour etc., so the twins argument is unlikely to happen.

It depends on the product, but if each matches the description then all is fine.

ban resistant recalcitrant debutant

Does the fact that the quantity was changed form 1 to 2 make any difference?
The products were ordered together on a single occasion in a single order.

The customer clearly had an expectation that they'd receive two identical products.

It seems the customer is wrong to have that expectation. The customer can't return the items on the basis that they don't match the description but yet the products don't match each other either.


I don't agree that clothing ads always fully describe the products.
Say someone orders two hats.
What if the branding logo was different on each hat?
What if the branding logo wasn't visible on any pictures of the product?

I accept that the customer seems to have no rights here. That's why I consider it interesting.

I accept that manufacturers put into their manuals that the specification of their products can change without notice. But the customer hasn't read the manual before he receive the products so the customer would be unaware of that fact.


Distance selling rules would appear to allow the purchaser to return the items at their own cost for any reason.

my3cents

Yes, because one of the items is obviously old stock.

ban resistant recalcitrant debutant

I have new and better examples.

Take the two hats.

You order two, both size L.
When they arrive they are different sizes. They are both L, but both Ls are different.

Can you complain about that?



I ordered identical laser pointers from China. Some were very strong and some were much weaker. I asked the retailer about it. The reply was very interesting and very Chinese. They said, 'like leaves on a tree all products are different'.

Hmmm. I expect natural things like leaves to be different but I also expect manufactured products to be identical to each other.

I thought their answer was very good but what would Irish consumer law say about that.
Can you complain if you buy two identical torches and one is much brighter than the other?
The exact brightness level wasn't specified in the ad.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

ban resistant recalcitrant debutant wrote: »

I have new and better examples.

Take the two hats.

You order two, both size L.
When they arrive they are different sizes. They are both L, but both Ls are different.

Can you complain about that?



I ordered identical laser pointers from China. Some were very strong and some were much weaker. I asked the retailer about it. The reply was very interesting and very Chinese. They said, 'like leaves on a tree all products are different'.

Hmmm. I expect natural things like leaves to be different but I also expect manufactured products to be identical to each other.

I thought their answer was very good but what would Irish consumer law say about that.
Can you complain if you buy two identical torches and one is much brighter than the other?
The exact brightness level wasn't specified in the ad.

The hats example is different. One of them is obviously wrong/faulty if a different size. It can, like most clothing be returned as not fitting.

Is this all 'what ifs' and hypothetical? Were there actually two items that led to this?


As for the Chinese pointers - Chinese, cheap,...enough said

ban resistant recalcitrant debutant

You're wrong about the hats. The manufacturer changes the L size from one size to a slightly different size. Neither is an incorrect size despite both being different. There is no legally mandated L size.

Can the customer complain that both L sized hats are different sizes?

If the hats were received individually then no complaint would be possible in respect of either hat.



Yes, by the way, there were two items I purchased which were different and I had intended to use them as a matching pair.



A better example is something that is sometimes used in pairs but not exclusively so.
Earrings for example.
They are sold individually as some people only have one ear pierced.
But some people want two identical earrings to wear together.

If you change the quantity from 1 to 2 and you receive two different models of the same earring your intention of having two identical earrings has been frustrated.

njs030

Perhaps say what happened and you will get actual advice, there's no need for dancing around it?

There's also no need to give a reason to return an item bought online.

ban resistant recalcitrant debutant

The earrings example is more or less identical to my issue. My particular issue has been resolved. I'm discussing the general issue now.

If someone wants two identical earrings it seems they have to arrange that specifically with the retailer. If they simply change the quantity from 1 to 2 and they receive different models of the same earring they have no legal comeback. They can return the items under Distance Selling rules but that's at their own expense as far as I know.

The customer would prefer to return the items at the retailers expense but the customer can't force that.


I think it's interesting.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Was your issue with ear rings or not? This is like pulling teeth. Of course a buyer could return non matching ear rings at the sellers expense. Personally, I've never seen anything but pairs of ear rings.

ban resistant recalcitrant debutant

Michelle Shaggy Wool wrote: »

Was your issue with ear rings or not? This is like pulling teeth. Of course a buyer could return non matching ear rings at the sellers expense. Personally, I've never seen anything but pairs of ear rings.

Previously you were saying that manufacturers can update models and you can do nothing about it.
Now you're saying that of course you can return non matching items.

They weren't sold as matching items so on what basis can you return them?

Ear rings are sold individually to people who only have one ear pierced.

If you change the quantity from 1 to 2 you have no guarantee that you will receive identical products, and apparently no legal comeback if you don't.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

I give up!

Buying a pair of ear rings is not buying items with a model change.


Good Luck!

ban resistant recalcitrant debutant

You're deliberately refusing to comprehend what I'm writing.

My descriptions have been clear.

It is possible that an earring model could be updated. Your refusal to accept that doesn't make you right.

my3cents

ban resistant recalcitrant debutant wrote: »

You're deliberately refusing to comprehend what I'm writing.

My descriptions have been clear.

It is possible that an earring model could be updated. Your refusal to accept that doesn't make you right.

He's not a poster that would deliberately refuse to comprehend you.

Me I'm part of the awkward squad.

Sooooo, just how many people do you know with just one ear?

ban resistant recalcitrant debutant

I don't know many people with just one ear but I do know many people with just one pierced ear and I do know that earrings are sold individually.

My posts have been entirely consistent throughout. I am not flipping and flopping.



People haven't addressed the issue of torches of different strengths. If you hand out five torches and one is significantly weaker than the others does that indicate or prove a problem?
Can the person with the weaker torch return it on the basis that it's broken?

The exact intensity of the light wasn't specified and so on what basis can you return the torch?
On the basis that it's not as bright as some other torch?

The torch complies with its own description. If it doesn't match another torch then so what?

Del2005

If you want matching items you need to buy them as a pair, so you can either buy a pair of earrings and get a match or order 2 separate earrings and risk not getting a match. If you read the T&C on most websites it says that items can be changed/substituted. So only items sold as a pair will be guaranteed to match, even then you could end up with both being different to what you ordered.

I'm failing to see the consumer issue here. You ordered items which are not what you wanted and got a full refund.

endacl

Oh. I think I get it.

So, you've opened an account with the intention of being 'just a bit annoying' while carefully skirting the line of 'annoying enough to warrant Mod action and a potential ban?

Am I close?

ban resistant recalcitrant debutant

No, you are wrong. I'm not trying to be annoying.

The refusal to accept that people are genuine is a problem on this site. I may be weird but some people are weird.

I've explained patiently what the problem is.

Products which are often used in matching pairs, but not exclusively so, like ear rings for example. They are not always sold as matching pairs despite often being used in matching pairs.

My product was not ear rings but was sold as individual items despite often being used as matching pairs.
Can anybody guess what the product might have been?
I'm struggling to come up with any alternative examples beyond earrings.
But earrings do illustrate the point perfectly. They are sold individually and if you want two matching ear rings you cannot just change the quantity from 1 to 2.


It seems the issue is clear as day. If you change the quantity from 1 to 2 you are not guaranteed to receive identical products, even if the products are ordinarily used in pairs if purchased in multiples of 2.
That was the question and it has been answered.



I have no difficulties or beef with other posters.

I'm coming from a very formal, theoretic, legalistic point of view and I suspect other posters are coming from a much more practical point of view. That's why we can't agree.

Posters are wrong to say that this issue can never arise in the real world.

You could have purchased expensive earrings costing 300 euros say and have no comeback.

irelandrover

ban resistant recalcitrant debutant wrote: »

No, you are wrong. I'm not trying to be annoying.

The refusal to accept that people are genuine is a problem on this site. I may be weird but some people are weird.

I've explained patiently what the problem is.

Products which are often used in matching pairs, but not exclusively so, like ear rings for example. They are not always sold as matching pairs despite often being used in matching pairs.

My product was not ear rings but was sold as individual items despite often being used as matching pairs.
Can anybody guess what the product might have been?
I'm struggling to come up with any alternative examples beyond earrings.
But earrings do illustrate the point perfectly. They are sold individually and if you want two matching ear rings you cannot just change the quantity from 1 to 2.


It seems the issue is clear as day. If you change the quantity from 1 to 2 you are not guaranteed to receive identical products, even if the products are ordinarily used in pairs if purchased in multiples of 2.
That was the question and it has been answered.



I have no difficulties or beef with other posters.

I'm coming from a very formal, theoretic, legalistic point of view and I suspect other posters are coming from a much more practical point of view. That's why we can't agree.

Posters are wrong to say that this issue can never arise in the real world.

You could have purchased expensive earrings costing 300 euros say and have no comeback.

Why not just tell people what you are talking about?

For earrings if you want to guarantee that they are matching then you buy a matching set that are sold as a pair. You do not buy 2 seperate ones and hope they match.

If you buy 2 seperate items and they both match the description then you have no rights to return them.

L1011

ban resistant recalcitrant debutant wrote: »

I'm coming from a very formal, theoretic, legalistic point of view and I suspect other posters are coming from a much more practical point of view. That's why we can't agree.

This is a consumer issues forum, practical points of view are the norm. Do you want this moved to legal discussion?

endacl

ban resistant recalcitrant debutant wrote: »

No, you are wrong. I'm not trying to be annoying.

I remain unconvinced...

ban resistant (we'll see...) recalcitrant (having an obstinately uncooperative attitude towards authority or discipline) debutant (really....?).

Anyway. Off to the auld ignore list witcha!

ban resistant recalcitrant debutant

I am ban resistant. Not ban proof. I'm not an idiot.

I'm not sure how the ban resistance manifests itself. I suspect that moderators become drowsy when they think of banning me. Perhaps I'm wrong and I'm no more ban resistant than anybody else.


The recalcitrant label refers to the fact that I don't take authority too seriously but that's something I have in common with many other Irish people.

Clearly debutant means I'm a new user.

5rtytry56

endacl wrote: »

Anyway. Off to the auld ignore list witcha!

Don't forget to rate the Thread as 'Terrible', like I'm doing.

my3cents

5rtytry56 wrote: »

Don't forget to rate the Thread as 'Terrible', like I'm doing.

Rating it at all gives it too much credence.

ban resistant recalcitrant debutant

I've worked out how to come up with new examples.

Anything that tends to come in twos or pairs, like seat covers on front car seats, hinges on double doors, plugholes in double sinks, or weight discs on each end of weight lifting bars, even aglets perhaps. Those things are sold individually but also sold to customers who can only use them if they are matching pairs. Aglets might not be consumer items as such.

I'm not suggesting new legislation is needed. I just think it's interesting. Obviously I'm weird because everyone else says worst thread ever.




A related issue might be if you wanted six of an item, and less than six doesn't suit you. Cushions for your six seats perhaps. You order six. The retailer only has four and ships them to you and insists you honour the purchase of those four, even after you explain it was six or nothing. This is theoretical, not real.

L1011

ban resistant recalcitrant debutant wrote: »

I've worked out how to come up with new examples.

Anything that tends to come in twos or pairs, like seat covers on front car seats, hinges on double doors, plugholes in double sinks, or weight discs on each end of weight lifting bars, even aglets perhaps. Those things are sold individually but also sold to customers who can only use them if they are matching pairs. Aglets might not be consumer items as such.

I'm not suggesting new legislation is needed. I just think it's interesting. Obviously I'm weird because everyone else says worst thread ever.




A related issue might be if you wanted six of an item, and less than six doesn't suit you. Cushions for your six seats perhaps. You order six. The retailer only has four and ships them to you and insists you honour the purchase of those four, even after you explain it was six or nothing. This is theoretical, not real.

If you want hypothetical legal discussions, PM me and I'll move this to Legal Discussion (locked, so they can decide what to do with it). This is not the place.