Licence renewal, did you know?

BarryM

I just did my renewal and discovered I was (no longer) licensed to drive a car with a trailer, because I had not passed the test for driving with a trailer.....

As it happens I am old enough to have never done a test here and had a license since the early 60s.

However, I lived abroad for many years and had a license from Luxembourg which I exchanged in about 2002, for my current Irish one.

I ticked the box for a trailer when renewing yesterday and the lady dealing with me crossed it out and made me initial the change. When I asked why she said I only had a license since 200x and had not passed the relevant test. When I said I had had an Irish license since the 60s, she said "there is no information here on that" and "there is no information here that you exchanged a foreign license" you only have a license since 200x.....

Just thought people would like to know; is there anything I can do? should I have told my insurance, and, since I have towed a trailer, was I covered?

Thanks, Barry

kilianmanning

You will probably have to do car theory test & be test then. What trailer are you pulling? You might be covered by b licence.

cml387

Your standard b licence allows you to have a trailer but it must be less than 750Kg
in weight.

kilianmanning

cml387 wrote: »

Your standard b licence allows you to have a trailer but it must be less than 750Kg
in weight.

Not entirely true.

mullingar

There is an exclusion available (IMO for mid/late aged farmers)

Basically, if you passed your test before a certain date (I think 1987), you get automatic entitlement to a BE if you apply for it.

cml387

kilianmanning wrote: »

Not entirely true.

Well if we are being pedantic

Vehicles (other than motorcycles, mopeds, work vehicles or land tractors) having a MAM1 not exceeding 3,500 kg, designed and constructed for the carriage of no more than eight passengers in addition to the driver.

The vehicle may tow a trailer (a) where the MAM of the trailer is not greater than 750 kg or (b) where the MAM of the trailer exceeds 750kg the combined MAM of the towing vehicle and the trailer is not greater than 3,500 kg.

Quadricycles (other than those covered by AM) are also covered by this category

Del2005

When I passed the CE licence I also ticked BE on the application. When I handed the from and pass cert over the person behind the counter said that I could not have BE as I did not have a pass cert for it, I pointed out that I could drive a 44t truck with a trailer and they asked the person beside what the E meant. When I later passed D I also DE on my licence.


Don't know where the person in the office got their information but I suspect they are wrong. I know several people who have never sat a driving test and have all the classes on their licence, they all got them before we had any tests, by that person's logic they don't have a licence at all. The only way that it could happen is if you exchanged your licence more than 10 years ago and never had BE on the exchange licence, you loose the entitlement if it's not on your licence for more than 10 years.

dudara

Something similar happened to my father a few years back. He bought a vintage Moto Guzzi, but then discovered that the motorcycle category had disappeared sometime from his license, despite having had one since the 60s/70s. I think he argued the ear off them and got it back somehow.

cml387

cml387 wrote: »

Well if we are being pedantic

In fairness there is a massive difference between what you said and the actual rule.

cml387

Kylee Yummy Penny wrote: »

In fairness there is a massive difference between what you said and the actual rule.

Massive difference?

The OP was under the impression he couldn't draw a trailer at all.

I pointed out that he could, with some restriction.

GM228

mullingar wrote: »

There is an exclusion available (IMO for mid/late aged farmers)

Basically, if you passed your test before a certain date (I think 1987), you get automatic entitlement to a BE if you apply for it.

Nope, the only automatic entitlement to a BE licence comes from having a C, C1E, CE, D, D1E or DE licence (or you held the old EB licence prior to 2011).

BE licences were only introduced in Ireland in 2011 having replaced the old EB licence, again the old EB had similar requirements as the current BE.

redcup342

BarryM wrote: »

I just did my renewal and discovered I was (no longer) licensed to drive a car with a trailer, because I had not passed the test for driving with a trailer.....

As it happens I am old enough to have never done a test here and had a license since the early 60s.

However, I lived abroad for many years and had a license from Luxembourg which I exchanged in about 2002, for my current Irish one.

I ticked the box for a trailer when renewing yesterday and the lady dealing with me crossed it out and made me initial the change. When I asked why she said I only had a license since 200x and had not passed the relevant test. When I said I had had an Irish license since the 60s, she said "there is no information here on that" and "there is no information here that you exchanged a foreign license" you only have a license since 200x.....

Just thought people would like to know; is there anything I can do? should I have told my insurance, and, since I have towed a trailer, was I covered?

Thanks, Barry

No hope i'm afraid, exchange is like a new license so the exception doesn't apply.

knifey_spoonie

GM228 wrote: »

Nope, the only automatic entitlement to a BE licence comes from having a C, C1E, CE, D, D1E or DE licence (or you held the old EB licence prior to 2011).

BE licences were only introduced in Ireland in 2011 having replaced the old EB licence, again the old EB had similar requirements as the current BE.

So are you saying if i do a C license(Rigid Truck) i can then tow a car & trailer upto 7000KG ?

Truckermal

knifey_spoonie wrote: »

So are you saying if i do a C license(Rigid Truck) i can then tow a car & trailer upto 7000KG ?

No it would need a trailer attached too.

GM228

knifey_spoonie wrote: »

So are you saying if i do a C license(Rigid Truck) i can then tow a car & trailer upto 7000KG ?

When you say tow a car i assume you mean drive a car (or a B vehicle) & trailer then yes, you can't use the BE for hauling a trailer with a C vehicle.

But max weight could be less than 7000kg as it isn't a combined total weight - i.e you can't haul a 4000kg trailer with a 3000kg vehicle. If you have for example a 2000kg vehicle than your total weight can not exceed 5500kg as the trailer can't exceed 3500kg on a BE licence (with one exception).

CiniO

BarryM wrote: »

I just did my renewal and discovered I was (no longer) licensed to drive a car with a trailer, because I had not passed the test for driving with a trailer.....

As it happens I am old enough to have never done a test here and had a license since the early 60s.

However, I lived abroad for many years and had a license from Luxembourg which I exchanged in about 2002, for my current Irish one.

I ticked the box for a trailer when renewing yesterday and the lady dealing with me crossed it out and made me initial the change. When I asked why she said I only had a license since 200x and had not passed the relevant test. When I said I had had an Irish license since the 60s, she said "there is no information here on that" and "there is no information here that you exchanged a foreign license" you only have a license since 200x.....

Just thought people would like to know; is there anything I can do? should I have told my insurance, and, since I have towed a trailer, was I covered?

Thanks, Barry

Your story is not exactly clear.
You said you got your first licence in Ireland in the 60's and you had EB category on it.
How did you get your Luxembourg licence? Did you exchange your Irish licence for Luxembourg or did you pass your test in Luxembourg?
Did you have BE category on Luxembourg licence?
And did you get EB category on Irish licence in 2002 when you exchanged Luxembourg one?

GM228

CiniO wrote: »

You said you got your first licence in Ireland in the 60's and you had EB category on it.

The OP didn't mention EB.

There was no category EB licence (or an equivalent) in Ireland before 1989.

BarryM

Jaysus, what a mess!

AFAICS, I might be able to pull a trailer, but, because an exchanged license is "new" I don't have the necessary code on it? So, if stopped by a smart guard, or i have an accident involving a trailer what is the situation?

Where might I get the definitive information?

It seems that if you had a pre 2011 license renewed you get the necessary code without a re-test, but if, for any reason, your license history "disappears" then, technically you need a re-test. I wonder what would happen if you turn up at the test centre looking for just a code for a trailer?

Many thanks for the many replies.

GM228

BarryM wrote: »

Jaysus, what a mess!

AFAICS, I might be able to pull a trailer, but, because an exchanged license is "new" I don't have the necessary code on it? So, if stopped by a smart guard, or i have an accident involving a trailer what is the situation?

Where might I get the definitive information?

It seems that if you had a pre 2011 license renewed you get the necessary code without a re-test, but if, for any reason, your license history "disappears" then, technically you need a re-test. I wonder what would happen if you turn up at the test centre looking for just a code for a trailer?

Many thanks for the many replies.

As already pointed out you can pull a trailer on the category B licence subject to the restrictions on post #6. You can apply to do a EB test and have the code added, I believe it is pretty much the same as the B test, but you are demonstrating the ability to control the trailer such as reversing and turning etc.

But the question is before you exchanged your licence did you have the codes in the first place? CiniO has raised some interesting questions also.

beauf

Where can you get your trailer weighed.

boardsuser1

Be very careful when dealing with the NDLS for a licence application.

I went in to add my Artic in 2015 and was watching the boxes being ticked.

They were only giving me C1E and not CE until I pulled them up on it.

When I got the licence, as i already had categories C &D, I then got all the E classes as a result.

OP what is the date on the back of your licence for category B?

The attached article may or may not have originally been relevant to you.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/news/deadline-looms-for-assessment-to-reinstate-car-and-trailer-licences-248644.html

cml387

cml387 wrote: »

Massive difference?

The OP was under the impression he couldn't draw a trailer at all.

I pointed out that he could, with some restriction.

Sorry I meant the you can legally tow a lot broader range of trailers than "only less than 750kg".

GM228 wrote: »

Nope, the only automatic entitlement to a BE licence comes from having a C, C1E, CE, D, D1E or DE licence (or you held the old EB licence prior to 2011).

BE licences were only introduced in Ireland in 2011 having replaced the old EB licence, again the old EB had similar requirements as the current BE.

I know plenty of people who passed their B test prior to 89 I think it was and they all have EB also having never sat a test for it.

You are automatically entitled to it if you passed your B test before a certain date.

GM228

Kylee Yummy Penny wrote: »

I know plenty of people who passed their B test prior to 89 I think it was and they all have EB also having never sat a test for it.

You are automatically entitled to it if you passed your B test before a certain date.

No, you were automatically entitled to the old EB licence if you held a C licence (which pre-dated the prior to 13th November 1989, but you had to look for it on renewal between 1989 and 1999. This was a transitional arrangement of the Road Traffic (Licensing of Drivers) Regulations 1989.

In 1999 the law changed and there was no longer an entitlement to EB as all old C licences were gone. Due to many not knowing about this between 2011 and 2013 people were allowed to get back their EB if they didn't avail of it after 1989 and this "special" EB allows them haul over 3500kg trailers. If you failed to get your EB either between 1989 and 1999 or 2011 and 2013 then there is no entitlement to the BE category even if you passed prior to 1989.

CiniO

beauf wrote: »

Where can you get your trailer weighed.

Trailer actual weight is completely irrelevant for driver licensing purposes.
It's the trailer Design Gross Vehicle Weight (D.G.V.W) which matters and you have to judge it by that what licence category you need to tow a trailer.

CiniO

BarryM wrote: »

Jaysus, what a mess!

AFAICS, I might be able to pull a trailer, but, because an exchanged license is "new" I don't have the necessary code on it? So, if stopped by a smart guard, or i have an accident involving a trailer what is the situation?

Where might I get the definitive information?

You can get most of the information in this thread if you read through it.
It would also help us to help you, if you answered questions from my earlier post.

It seems that if you had a pre 2011 license renewed you get the necessary code without a re-test, but if, for any reason, your license history "disappears" then, technically you need a re-test. I wonder what would happen if you turn up at the test centre looking for just a code for a trailer?

Many thanks for the many replies.

There's not really any code for trailer.
It's a separate driving licence category and it's called BE.
Only code related to trailer is code 96, which for holders of B licence allows to tow a set of up to 4250kg (instead of regular 3500kg limit), but as far as I know this code is not available on Irish licences, even though there is a mention about it in driver licensing legislation.
I wonder though if this code on EU licence is valid in Ireland, but I believe it must be.

Harry Palmr

Excuse my ignorance but what does this mean in practice (code 76.06)

Category BE vehicle where the maximum authorized mass of the trailer exceeds 3500 kg

Any weight allowed? Surely there is a maximum?

CiniO

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance but what does this mean in practice (code 76.06)



Any weight allowed? Surely there is a maximum?

That's interesting.
I wonder if there are any category B vehicles (cars or vans up to 3500kg gross weight) which would be rated to tow trailers heavier than 3500kg.
I actually don't think so, and if I'm right, that would mean code you quote would be completely useless if no such car or van exists.

GM228

The code is 79.06 (not 76.06). It was the code which applied to some with a BE prior to 2013 and there was no weight restriction. 79.06 is no longer available.

Harry Palmr

GM228 wrote: »

The code is 79.06 (not 76.06). It was the code which applied to some with a BE prior to 2013 and there was no weight restriction. 79.06 is no longer available.

Yep typo on my part, my licence was renewed in 2015, passed my test in 1985 so presumably this is some strange historic artefact.

GM228

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Yep typo on my part, my licence was renewed in 2015, passed my test in 1985 so presumably this is some strange historical artefact.

Correct, it applies to those who got their BE/EB prior to 1989 based on the old C licence and is not subject to the standard BE 3500kg limit.

Harry Palmr

Great I can tow an ICBM

beauf

CiniO wrote: »

Trailer actual weight is completely irrelevant for driver licensing purposes.
It's the trailer Design Gross Vehicle Weight (D.G.V.W) which matters and you have to judge it by that what licence category you need to tow a trailer.

I wish I understood a word of that but I don't. Sry.

CiniO

beauf wrote: »

I wish I understood a word of that but I don't. Sry.

Each trailer should have a plate on it, where D.G.V.W (sometimes known as M.A.M) is indicated.

F.e. if a plate says that trailer D.G.V.W is 1400kg, that means your design gross vehicle weight of your trailer is 1400kg.
That weight consists of trailer own weight + maximum load.
F.e. trailer might weight 500kg itself + 900kg possible load. That gives 1400kg D.G.V.W.

If you have a car with plated design gross vehicle weight of 2000kg, that means you can tow above trailer with B licence, as sum's of D.G.V.W of the car and trailer is 3400kg - less than 3500kg limit for B licence.
That is provided car is rated to tow trailers of 1400kg.


Problem is, that many older home-made trailers don't have this plate stating D.G.V.W.
I don't know how law treats such cases.

beauf

CiniO wrote: »

Each trailer should have a plate on it, where D.G.V.W (sometimes known as M.A.M) is indicated.

F.e. if a plate says that trailer D.G.V.W is 1400kg, that means your design gross vehicle weight of your trailer is 1400kg.
That weight consists of trailer own weight + maximum load.
F.e. trailer might weight 500kg itself + 900kg possible load. That gives 1400kg D.G.V.W.

If you have with plated design gross vehicle weight of 2000kg, that means you can tow above trailer with B licence, as sum's of D.G.V.W of the car and trailer is 3400kg - less than 3500kg limit for B licence.
That is provided car is rated to tow trailers of 1400kg.


Problem is, that many older home-made trailers don't have this plate stating D.G.V.W.
I don't know how law treats such cases.

Thanks appreciate that. Home made trailer I was thinking of.

GM228

CiniO wrote: »

Problem is, that many older home-made trailers don't have this plate stating D.G.V.W.
I don't know how law treats such cases.

You can get home-made trailers plated by the NSAI, only new trailers sold after October 2012 require the plates - proving when you made/bought the trailer could be an issue, but plating isn't enforced anyway.

CiniO

GM228 wrote: »

You can get home-made trailers plated by the NSAI, only new trailers sold after October 2012 require the plates - proving when you made/bought the trailer could be an issue, but plating isn't enforced anyway.

So how does that work with unplated trailers and driver licensing enforcement?

F.e. If I have 2000kg car, so that means having B licence I can tow 1500kg trailer.
Let's say I tow a big trailer, which is empty so actual weight below 1000kg.
But if fully loaded it would probably weight over 2 tonnes.

How would gardai prove me that I'm towing it illegally if there's no plate on a trailer?

beauf

I assume they could ask you to follow them to a weigh station? I'm only guessing.

I've an old trailer which I inherited. I helped make it but it was a very long time ago.

GM228

CiniO wrote: »

So how does that work with unplated trailers and driver licensing enforcement?

F.e. If I have 2000kg car, so that means having B licence I can tow 1500kg trailer.
Let's say I tow a big trailer, which is empty so actual weight below 1000kg.
But if fully loaded it would probably weight over 2 tonnes.

How would gardai prove me that I'm towing it illegally if there's no plate on a trailer?

They would have big difficulties proving such, that is why you don't hear of unplated offences unless it's obvious, for example a mini digger in an unplated trailer.

CiniO

beauf wrote: »

I assume they could ask you to follow them to a weigh station? I'm only guessing.

I've an old trailer which I inherited. I helped make it but it was a very long time ago.

But my point was that driver licensing requirements relating to trailers are based on D.G.V.W, not the actual weight.

So f.e. If I with my 2000kg car, tow a trailer plated as D.G.V.W 2000kg, then I need BE licence (as total set weight is 4000kg which is above 3500kg limit for B licence)
If I tow that trailer empty, trailer might weight only 700kg itself, but it doesn't change a fact that I need BE licence to tow it, so if pulled over I could be done for driving without licence.

But if that trailer was not plated, gards would have no way to prove that it's a 2000kg trailer, and if it's empty and they took it to weight bridge, they would only discover that empty trailer is 700kg which would be irrelevant to the fact if I need BE licence or not.

BarryM

OK, here goes to try to answer the various issues relating to my OP.

I left Ireland in 1977 to work abroad and ended up in Luxembourg in late '78. There you had to be registered and as part of that you needed to have a local driving license. I had a license since the late 60s when I returned to Ireland from UK where I had passed the test in about '62. I haven't the slightest idea what the 60s license allowed, but someone here will know....;). My Irish license was taken away in Luxembourg and replaced with a local one, no test.

I finally returned to Ireland in 1999, having worked here and there around the world and had a license issued The Gambia, West Africa, 'cos I was there a while. I went to the driving license office in Cork and, as far as I remember, I was allowed to change my Luxembourg license (I didn't mention the Gambian one, working on the basis that Luxembourg is an EU member, and the license was still valid).

I have no idea what sort of license I would have received in '99, but when the new regime arrived I was over 70 and needed to do the medical etc. I was 70 in Sept '08, so, I think that may have been the expiry date on the old license, needing renewal, being 70.

I presume I filled in the form for Group 1 if that was what existed in '08. I has been renewed every three years since, latest due this month. I filled in Group one and that was when she crossed out the trailer picture.... and the rest is on this thread.

I can assure those who suggested the answer(s) to my question(s) were on here that I have tried, but almost every suggestion is followed by "not true" or the like in a later post.

I have never looked for a plate on a trailer, I just borrow one if I ever needed one.....

What a can of worms.....

GM228

BarryM wrote: »

I left Ireland in 1977 to work abroad and ended up in Luxembourg in late '78. There you had to be registered and as part of that you needed to have a local driving license. I had a license since the late 60s when I returned to Ireland from UK where I had passed the test in about '62. I haven't the slightest idea what the 60s license allowed, but someone here will know....;). My Irish license was taken away in Luxembourg and replaced with a local one, no test.

This is where the problem lies, whilst you got your Irish licence in the 60s the entitlement to the automatic entitlement to EB was only applicable to an Irish licence category C held at the time between 1989-1999 and backdatable between 2011-2013 only for an Irish licence obtained pre 1989.

BarryM wrote: »

I finally returned to Ireland in 1999, having worked here and there around the world and had a license issued The Gambia, West Africa, 'cos I was there a while. I went to the driving license office in Cork and, as far as I remember, I was allowed to change my Luxembourg license (I didn't mention the Gambian one, working on the basis that Luxembourg is an EU member, and the license was still valid).

The EB category didn't exist in 1978 when you got your Luxembourg licence nor did the EU rules on licence category recognition, therefore they would have only given you their equivilent of the then Irish C licence (equivilant of todays EU .

BarryM wrote: »

I have no idea what sort of license I would have received in '99, but when the new regime arrived I was over 70 and needed to do the medical etc. I was 70 in Sept '08, so, I think that may have been the expiry date on the old license, needing renewal, being 70.

You would have simply got category B as there would be no entitlement to BE, BE only applied to an Irish catehory C and you exchanged the Luxembourg licence, not an Irish one. EU recognition of licences came out after you exchanged your original Irish licence meaning the Luxembourg licence was your first community model licence and that is what the recognition is based on.

BarryM wrote: »

II presume I filled in the form for Group 1 if that was what existed in '08. I has been renewed every three years since, latest due this month. I filled in Group one and that was when she crossed out the trailer picture.... and the rest is on this thread.

The "Group 1" category as shown on the current application means nothing in law, it's just (badly) for application purposes and only became part of the application form this year. A, A1, A2 and AM are also part of Grouo 1. Previously you just had to tick the appropriate box without the groupings which is confusing and makes people think they are automatically entitled to BE. You still need an entitlement before receiving each in the group.

BarryM

Thanks GM.

Your first answer is a great example of the confusion, then and now....

Your last answer just continues the confusion..... I assume the staff have to cross out the trailer on almost everybody who just ticks the Group 1. WTF, why did they not just leave the original arrangement?

OTOH, wtf do you have to go through the whole performance instead of just issuing a new copy of your existing one, if it is only three years since it was issued?

btw, I got a text yesterday saying my new license is created and "should be delivered in 3/5 business days" - by donkey, I presume.

beauf

When I last renewed my licence I lost something like this too. I always thought it was to drive vans with a trailer (something I used to do, but but no longer do), so I didn't chase it up.

Now I only drive a car with a home made trailer,and the basic licence covers that, so I never lost any sleep over it.

I get that's its about weights etc.

Faith+1

One things for sure, when I'm renewing my licence next year I'll be sure to photocopy my old licence in case those muppets in the NDLS forget to give me all my category's.