Long flight delay - compo?

Henry Ford III · 12-09-2017 9:38pm #1

I was on a Ryanair flight a few days ago that was 2 hours 20 mins late leaving, and then diverted to another airport (because the original destination had closed for the night). A bus transfer was put on but the total dealay was over 3.5 hours. The airline emailed saying the delay was due to French ATC going on strike.

Are they liable?

George Sunsnow · 12-09-2017 9:41pm

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_Compensation_Regulation_261/2004

Needs to be a minimum 3-4hr delay
The atc strike also might be 'extraordinary circumstances ' giving them an out

Henry Ford III · 12-09-2017 9:56pm

I believe 3 hours of a delay qualifies for compo. The ATC strike is the key though. I'm not sure if it means the airline aren't liable. Some online sources suggest it's not an out for them

vg88 · 13-09-2017 7:55am

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I believe 3 hours of a delay qualifies for compo. The ATC strike is the key though. I'm not sure if it means the airline aren't liable. Some online sources suggest it's not an out for them

Wasn't the airlines fault so I don't think you can claim 261 rights.

martinsvi · 13-09-2017 8:09am

don't mean to back seat mod here, but since these questions start to come up more frequently, perhaps it's worth changing the forum charter a little bit.. I honestly don't think these compo questions belong to Aviation & Aircraft.. first thing's first, it's a consumer/legal issue. Posting your query in the correct forum will probably prevent some good deal of heated "compo culture bashing" posts from those with aviation close to heart.

secondly, to me it would seem that the information that's already out there couldn't be laid out more simpler, I simply don't believe you haven't come across any of these articles before:

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/air_travel/compensation_for_overbooked_and_delayed_flights.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_Compensation_Regulation_261/2004
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32004R0261:en:HTML

If the airline can prove that the cancellation was caused by an extraordinary circumstance which could not have been avoided, even if all reasonable measures had been taken, no compensation is payable. Examples of extraordinary circumstances may include weather conditions, air traffic control restrictions, security risks and industrial disputes that affect the operation of the flight.

of course there could be a possibility that your delay was NOT caused by French ATC strike, but since you choose not to share any details about your flight (e.g. Flight number, Date of departure, time) I guess we'll never know..

roundymac · 13-09-2017 12:14pm

Our flight to London with EI did'nt operate, engine problems. We were put on a bus (5 people) and bused to Dublin. We had been due to fly at 11.45 and instead we flew on the 18.00 which was delayed to 18.35. We were given a €5 voucher in Cork,am I entitled to claim extra compansation for this delay?This was for tuesday 05/09.

Locker10a · 13-09-2017 12:39pm

roundymac wrote: »

Our flight to London with EI did'nt operate, engine problems. We were put on a bus (5 people) and bused to Dublin. We had been due to fly at 11.45 and instead we flew on the 18.00 which was delayed to 18.35. We were given a €5 voucher in Cork,am I entitled to claim extra compansation for this delay?This was for tuesday 05/09.

I'd imagine you are, might as well put in a claim anyway and see

Henry Ford III · 13-09-2017 1:58pm

Our flight was on Monday evening last and the ATC strike in France was not until Tuesday. I smell a rat.

JCX BXC · 13-09-2017 2:06pm

roundymac wrote: »

Our flight to London with EI did'nt operate, engine problems. We were put on a bus (5 people) and bused to Dublin. We had been due to fly at 11.45 and instead we flew on the 18.00 which was delayed to 18.35. We were given a €5 voucher in Cork,am I entitled to claim extra compansation for this delay?This was for tuesday 05/09.

You would be under EU261 yes, Aer Lingus may dispute this however my reading of the situation is most certainly that you're entitled to compensation. You could chase it yourself and this could take a while and a bit of trouble, personally I'd choose this option, however some firm's will deal with this for you for a fee.

bkehoe · 13-09-2017 6:06pm

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Our flight was on Monday evening last and the ATC strike in France was not until Tuesday. I smell a rat.

The strike started on Monday evening from approx 8pm through until 5AM this morning Irish time.

Henry Ford III · 14-09-2017 6:07am

bkehoe wrote:

The strike started on Monday evening from approx 8pm through until 5AM this morning Irish time.

Flight was due to depart at 5.40pm.

AfterDusk · 14-09-2017 7:58am

It depends. Were you sat on the aircraft for the 2 hrs 20 or did it arrive late, you got on and departed straight away? If it was the previous flight that arrived delayed because of ATC you can claim because your flight wasn't directly affected - it was knock on. Also, the fact that they departed knowing that the destination would be closed is typical of that particular organisation.

Locker10a · 14-09-2017 8:57am

AfterDusk wrote: »

Also, the fact that they departed knowing that the destination would be closed is typical of that particular organisation.

I don't think this happened at all?

Locker10a · 14-09-2017 9:04am

Locker10a wrote: »

I don't think this happened at all?

Sorry, I was reading the replies in relation to a different flight. This did indeed happen. But it's quite common in this situation, the airlines would think its better get people as close to their intended destination as possible that might rather than cancel.

Henry Ford III · 15-09-2017 4:32pm

Locker10a wrote:

I don't think this happened at all?

The flight left Dublin at 8pm which is 9pm Spanish time. Murcia airport closes at 10pm. So they knew in advance they'd be diverting. We boarded just after 6pm incidentally die to the inbound flight (from Tours) being delayed.

Carawaystick · 15-09-2017 10:50pm

What level of evidence is needed for the airline to prove they were delayed by industrial action? Wouldn't they need to share their evidence with the op in the interests of natural justice?

L1011 · 15-09-2017 10:53pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

What level of evidence is needed for the airline to prove they were delayed by industrial action? Wouldn't they need to share their evidence with the op in the interests of natural justice?

I would imagine that courts would accept a news story; however if required its pretty normal in Europe that a union gives written notice of industrial action which could be passed on.

Henry Ford III · 19-09-2017 12:56pm

Back now and I'm going to pursue this I think.

From Ryanair....

"Dear HFIII,

We sincerely apologise that your flight FR7094, from Dublin to Murcia was diverted to Alicante on the 11-09-2017.

We are committed to providing on time services for all passengers, but exceptionally there are situations outside of our control that affect our flight operations

Passengers’ well-being is important to us and we try our best to minimise the inconvenience of flight disruptions while complying with EU Regulation 261/2004. EU Regulation 261/2004.

We again apologise for the delay of your flight.

Sincerely

Ryanair Customer Services."

The airline were at the very best economical with information and at worst trying to blame anybody but themselves.

I did a web search and can see there was a French ATC strike on 12th September, but there wasn't one on 11th September.

Locker10a · 19-09-2017 1:16pm

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Back now and I'm going to pursue this I think.

From Ryanair....

"Dear HFIII,

We sincerely apologise that your flight FR7094, from Dublin to Murcia was diverted to Alicante on the 11-09-2017.

We are committed to providing on time services for all passengers, but exceptionally there are situations outside of our control that affect our flight operations

Passengers’ well-being is important to us and we try our best to minimise the inconvenience of flight disruptions while complying with EU Regulation 261/2004. EU Regulation 261/2004.

We again apologise for the delay of your flight.

Sincerely

Ryanair Customer Services."

The airline were at the very best economical with information and at worst trying to blame anybody but themselves.

I did a web search and can see there was a French ATC strike on 12th September, but there wasn't one on 11th September.

It doesn't sound to me like anything to do with ATC strikes, sounds like a medical diversion?

Fred Swanson · 19-09-2017 1:25pm

This post has been deleted.

AfterDusk · 19-09-2017 4:35pm

But again if it was a previous flight that had the delay, regardless of the cause, they are liable to pay out - because they could potentially have used another aircraft and crew to get you to your destination on time.

Fred Swanson · 19-09-2017 4:41pm

This post has been deleted.

Henry Ford III · 19-09-2017 5:33pm

For clarity- the flight was due to depart at 17.40pm. The incoming flight was a bit late, so we boarded at 18.00pm.

We sat on board for about 2 hours and eventually left the gate at 20.00pm. Pilot blamed French ATC (who as far as I can see didn't go on strike until the next day).

JCX BXC · 19-09-2017 5:35pm

Could be wrong here, but iirc the strike began at 8pm that night.

Spanish Eyes · 19-09-2017 5:51pm

If it is not circumstances outside of their control and the delay is longer than X depending on the KM of the journey, then you are due compo.

On the other hand, and speaking from experience here! If the delay is due to ATC strikes they have to provide you with an hotel, meals and transport, but NO compo.

Have to say when we were caught up in ATC strikes last year they were brilliant. Everything sorted, lovely hotel, transport, the works. But no compo due to ATC strike.

Anyway, I suppose the big question is what are these circumstances outside their control? Is it defined anywhere? I suppose weather events and strikes are two of them anyway.

Henry Ford III · 19-09-2017 5:54pm

JCX BXC wrote: »

Could be wrong here, but iirc the strike began at 8pm that night.

At the risk of repeating myself here but we were seated and ready to go at 6pm.

JCX BXC · 19-09-2017 6:57pm

Henry Ford III wrote: »

At the risk of repeating myself here but we were seated and ready to go at 6pm.

Understandable, but, and I could be entirely wrong here.

1). Was it 8pm French time? That would be 7pm Irish time.

2). If the above is true you would have been flying through the airspace when the strike begun, so I wonder was slots a real issue?

Pursue it by all means, the onus is on them to supply the evidence, not you.

Locker10a · 20-09-2017 12:17pm

Henry Ford III wrote: »

For clarity- the flight was due to depart at 17.40pm. The incoming flight was a bit late, so we boarded at 18.00pm.

We sat on board for about 2 hours and eventually left the gate at 20.00pm. Pilot blamed French ATC (who as far as I can see didn't go on strike until the next day).

Classic ATC slot. Board pax, ready to go, receive Slot from ATC. At absolute mercy of ATC.
As mentioned strike was due to start at 8pm. Airline would have known this and push out as many flight as possible before that time/ began re-routing flights. This will have created major congestion in certain air spaces and a regulation or flow-control would be placed on traffic. The result being, flights ready to go on the ground but being held. Totally not the airlines fault.

Henry Ford III · 20-09-2017 1:23pm

Locker10a wrote: »

Classic ATC slot. Board pax, ready to go, receive Slot from ATC. At absolute mercy of ATC.
As mentioned strike was due to start at 8pm. Airline would have known this and push out as many flight as possible before that time/ began re-routing flights. This will have created major congestion in certain air spaces and a regulation or flow-control would be placed on traffic. The result being, flights ready to go on the ground but being held. Totally not the airlines fault.

I can find details of ATC industrial action on 12th Sept. but nothing for 11th Sept. Can you enlighten me please?

p.s. I forwarded details onto one of the claim handling Co's. 25% of payout + VAT. They've taken on the case based on the evidence provided on a no foal no fee basis. I assume they wouldn't have done so if they thought it had no merit.

Locker10a · 20-09-2017 6:16pm

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Locker10a wrote: »

Classic ATC slot. Board pax, ready to go, receive Slot from ATC. At absolute mercy of ATC.
As mentioned strike was due to start at 8pm. Airline would have known this and push out as many flight as possible before that time/ began re-routing flights. This will have created major congestion in certain air spaces and a regulation or flow-control would be placed on traffic. The result being, flights ready to go on the ground but being held. Totally not the airlines fault.

I can find details of ATC industrial action on 12th Sept. but nothing for 11th Sept. Can you enlighten me please?

p.s. I forwarded details onto one of the claim handling Co's. 25% of payout + VAT. They've taken on the case based on the evidence provided on a no foal no fee basis. I assume they wouldn't have done so if they thought it had no merit.

Those compo agencies take on any claim, but hopefully they will get to the bottom of it for you.
I believe someone above mentioned the strike started in the evening at 7pm french time.
All I know is if you sat on the aircraft for 2 hours, then the airline had their aircraft and crew in place, and were ready and willing to operate the flight at 6pm. However were held on the ground by ATC, this could have been due to industrial action, or weather which meant a particular area of airspace was restricted, and all traffic routed through there would have to be re-routed and obviously unlimited flights can't all fly through one airspace at the same time. Theres a required separation between flights and regulations on how many flights controllers can have on frequency at one time.
So those who plan airspace management would place flow controls on scheduled traffic. This means holding departures on the ground despite the airlines being "on-time". Whether or not EU261 applies here I'm not sure, your compo agency will fully investigate I'm sure. But in fairness to your airline it sounds like they were held on the ground with little control over the situation.

Long flight delay - compo?

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