Cyclists and Drivers

daretocareOC

I was involved in a minor spat yesterday with a cyclist on a roundabout. I was approaching the roundabout and the cyclist was on the roundabout intending to take the same exit as myself.
I slowed down as I approached and was waiting for the cyclist to pass me by before I entered the roundabout (I was not stationary) and as I approached he slowed down on his bike and started pointing at me as if to say "do not enter the roundabout" and continued to slow down and stare at me. He really startled me as I could clearly see him and did not put him in any danger and I actually signalled at him to let him know that I could see him and for him continue on. I entered the roundabout but the cyclist seemed really annoyed at this point and continued to slow down which made the situation worse. Note that the exit we were both taking was onto a dual carriageway and there was a car behind me so it wasn't the safest of manoeuvres. When we pulled onto the dual carriageway he was out on the road slightly so I had to move into the outside lane to try and avoid him and the car behind also had to move out to avoid him. He had really startled me and upset me so I began to get frustrated and beeped aggressively at him (which I realise now I shouldn't have done) but I was concerned for everyone's safety (myself, the car behind me and the cyclist).

I feel that we were probably both at fault but its really got me thinking about cyclists versus drivers.. Anyone else been in a similar situation?

the_pen_turner

don't worry , you just met an asshole . if he was driving a car he would do the same . some people cant deal with anyone else being around them and think they own the road

OleRodrigo

Best thing to do is get a bike and cycle through a few busy roundabouts yourself. I'd suggest the N81 from Rathfarnham to Citywest then come down by the Walkinstown roundabout.

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Ray Palmer

So you didn't stop and from the cyclists point of view you were about to continue on into his path so he slowed so you wouldn't hit him. This somehow startled you and you got angry along with another motorist and acted aggressively towards him. You now wonder why there is hostility between the two.
Cyclists can't read minds and minor altercations with a car and another car can easily be avoided but from a cyclists point of view it means severe injury or death.
I cycle everyday and many drivers are not aware of the the danger or fear of creeping their car out. Being out a couple of inches and continually moving means he cyclist has to give a wide birth. Many occasions I have been looking directly at a motorist not able to enter traffic but easing out straight into my path while there is a car right behind me. A cyclist can't trust the motorist because they expect you to stop on many occasion even though you have right of way and they have nowhere to go. If there is a stop or yield sign do so.

plodder

Yeah. Clear signaling is essential, and the clearest signal you can give, when you don't have right of way, is to stop. I'm guessing you were doing a fair speed on the approach, and had intended to pass by the cyclist without having to slow down any more than necessary. It's no wonder cyclists are nervous in that situation (if that was the situation).

I really think there should be a rule that you can't overtake on roundabouts. Everyone goes at the speed of the slowest vehicle, and if that's a slow bike, so be it.

daretocareOC

Fair point Ray.. I also cycle (not everyday more for leisure) and have been in situations that are unnecessary however I do feel that the cyclist did make the situation more dangerous by continuing to slow down and stare at me on a roundabout while he was exiting onto a dual carriageway. Also, as mentioned in my post above, I signalled to the cyclist that I was 100% aware that he was in front of me and for him to continue on and take the exit which he saw me do. That's the reason I got frustrated with him and beeped (which I completely shouldn't have I agree) but his actions were equally as unnecessary as mine.

My intention was never to overtake him on a roundabout. I wouldn't overtake a car on a roundabout so I would never overtake a cyclist. I had slowed down completely but was just not stationary at the time and when he looked at me that's when I signalled at him to continue to reassure him that I was aware he was on the roundabout and to continue cycling.

punisher5112

How could this upset you?

Just drive appropriately and give cyclists space.

Ignore fools if you come across them as there are many out there.

beauf

As cyclist I go center lane on a roundabout so there is no confusion. The drivers have to stay behind me.

As a driver if I was in front, I would go close to the kerb to stop the cyclist undertaking me, thus I would be able to take my exit with the cyclist behind me. if the cyclist is too close I would slow and even stop, then pull in behind the cyclist and follow them around.

I think OP you were a bit indecisive and it confused the cyclist. They sound like they also were also indecisive.

The only important thing is everyone not hit each other.

beauf

punisher5112 wrote: »

How could this upset you?

Just drive appropriately and give cyclists space.

Ignore fools if you come across them as there are many out there.

I give way to other people and even pull in momentarily so there is no conflict. I might even have gone around the roundabout twice to put distance between myself and another road user who seems unpredictable or a little crazy.

Ray Palmer

daretocareOC wrote: »

Fair point Ray.. I also cycle (not everyday more for leisure) and have been in situations that are unnecessary however I do feel that the cyclist did make the situation more dangerous by continuing to slow down and stare at me on a roundabout while he was exiting onto a dual carriageway. Also, as mentioned in my post above, I signalled to the cyclist that I was 100% aware that he was in front of me and for him to continue on and take the exit which he saw me do. That's the reason I got frustrated with him and beeped (which I completely shouldn't have I agree) but his actions were equally as unnecessary as mine.

You seem to be missing the point completely. You were in the wrong first creating all the danger. From the cyclists point of view you then made it seem like you were doing him a favour. Then he is unsure if you are one such driver who will then do something aggressive and then you do. The cyclist seemed to have judged the situation correctly from what you are saying. As for him making it more dangerous it sounds like that was all of your doing.

I am not somebody who will agree with a cyclist every time but your own description doesn't seem to be anything other than you being in the wrong and being annoyed for somebody being annoyed at you then you continued to escalate the situation.

daretocareOC

It was definitely a case of mixed messages from both parties and not knowing what the other one was doing I feel.

Its been such a hot topic of conversation but it just got me thinking about the whole cyclists versus drivers debate. I don't think any of us are perfect 100% of the time when it comes to using the road, we just need to be aware that we all use the same road and should try never to put one another in danger.

beauf

I think giving way to people who aren't expecting it, can often confuse them. Then everyone goes into this, "no you first" dithering which can be dangerous. New road users can often do this.

Whereas experience road users can often be far more aware of where it makes sense to this for each other.

daretocareOC

Ray Palmer wrote: »

You seem to be missing the point completely. You were in the wrong first creating all the danger. From the cyclists point of view you then made it seem like you were doing him a favour. Then he is unsure if you are one such driver who will then do something aggressive and then you do. The cyclist seemed to have judged the situation correctly from what you are saying. As for him making it more dangerous it sounds like that was all of your doing.

I am not somebody who will agree with a cyclist every time but your own description doesn't seem to be anything other than you being in the wrong and being annoyed for somebody being annoyed at you then you continued to escalate the situation.

I guess I will know for next time then Ray....

beauf

I'd also make the point that its good practice for a cyclists to maintain eye contact and have their head a on a swivel especially going around something like a roundabout. Drivers might not be used to a cyclist watching them like a hawk. They may not actually be glaring at them

Danbo!

I thankfully only have one roundabout on my commute which is relatively quiet. When on the roundabout, I'll take it very easy and be ready to stop. I enter at 6 and am exiting at 12. Problem is, cars coming from the left (9 o'clock) often look past me to where I entered from and are scanning for cars, not bikes. For this reason, I go at a speed that I can stop very quickly, and I also attempt to make eye contact with a motorist so I know they've seen me. His speed was likely him being cautious and the stare was eye contact.

I can't speak for the cyclist in your case, don't get why he felt he needed to point to be honest. I do feel a little more tense than usual on roundabouts as you require a lot of concentration, theres lots to look out for - drivers rolling through seem like they're not looking, sometimes a driver will see you, stop, but then start to enter the roundabout before you clear their car, etc.

Beasty

Sometimes drivers don't see cyclists on the roundabout. That's why eye contact can be very important. I've been in situations where motorists are encroaching and I'll definitely give them a glare, as it's their responsibility to stop if it's not clear to enter the roundabout. In fact there seems to be a habit of many drivers in Ireland when taking a left at a roundabout to assume those on the roundabout will go into the outside lane (but the inside of the roundabout) allowing them to enter and take the first exit. That's clearly not allowed but as a cyclist I'm very wary as I see cars approaching a roundabout I am already on.

On one occasion I was crossing the roundabout and a car entered right in front of me, completely oblivious to my presence, forcing me into the very right of the exit (just missing the raised section splitting the road for the exit I was taking). I was actually alongside the car at that stage.

Clearly as a cyclist I am concerned to ensure I am seen, and if that requires me to adapt my opposition or speed because I'm suspicious a motorist has not seen me, I think that's simply putting safety first, and not creating antagonism towards the motorist (although that may be a secondary outcome if they act dangerously anyway)

thesimpsons

beauf wrote: »

I think giving way to people who aren't expecting it, can often confuse them. Then everyone goes into this, "no you first" dithering which can be dangerous. New road users can often do this.

Whereas experience road users can often be far more aware of where it makes sense to this for each other.

this happens to me more regularly than it should on one roundabout. I enter at 6 and will be exiting at 12, pretty standard and straightforward. Sometimes a car will stop on the roundabout and signal me to enter. usually seems to be when there are a couple of bikes together and they get separated on the roundabout. I can never work it out why someone does that, its against all rules of road and surely they wouldn't do it for a car.

mh_cork

daretocareOC wrote: »

I slowed down as I approached and was waiting for the cyclist to pass me by before I entered the roundabout (I was not stationary) and as I approached he slowed down on his bike and started pointing at me as if to say "do not enter the roundabout" and continued to slow down and stare at me.

You didnt stop. The cyclist see this and is concerned about being hit. Nothing wrong in my book with making eye contact and signalling.

daretocareOC wrote: »

I could clearly see him and did not put him in any danger

The cyclist does not know this, all he sees is a moving car coming across his path. You were encroaching on a roundabout and unfortunately many motorists will cut cyclists off at roundabouts even when they do see them.

daretocareOC wrote: »

Note that the exit we were both taking was onto a dual carriageway and there was a car behind me so it wasn't the safest of manoeuvres.

The car behind you is irrelevant unless you are implying that the minor inconvenience of holding up another motorist is more important than safety.

daretocareOC wrote: »

When we pulled onto the dual carriageway he was out on the road slightly so I had to move into the outside lane to try and avoid him and the car behind also had to move out to avoid him. He had really startled me and upset me so I began to get frustrated and beeped aggressively at him (which I realise now I shouldn't have done) but I was concerned for everyone's safety (myself, the car behind me and the cyclist).

Cyclist is entitled to cycle in the lane. Your job as motorist is to overtake them safely. Passing them in the same lane is NOT safe, you should give min 1.5m, i.e. using the outside lane in this case.
And then you acted "aggressively" because you felt the cyclist needed to be taught a lesson on safety.

daretocareOC wrote: »

I feel that we were probably both at fault but its really got me thinking about cyclists versus drivers.. Anyone else been in a similar situation?

Both at fault? Nope. The cyclist saw a potential risk and merely stared at you / signalled to you. From your own description you failed to stop at a roundabout, it appears that you tailgated the cyclist on the roundabout exit and / or tried to make them cycle in the gutter so you could overtake in the lane (which is a dangerous and possibly illegal) and then beeped aggressively.

I know you may feel that the cyclist was never in danger and from your description you may be correct. But the cyclist could not be 100% confident in this - therefore they took the situation in hand to ensure their safety.

AndrewJRenko

daretocareOC wrote: »

Also, as mentioned in my post above, I signalled to the cyclist that I was 100% aware that he was in front of me and for him to continue on and take the exit which he saw me do.

What is the recognised signal for signalling to a cyclist ahead of you (who will be mainly looking ahead, while trying to keep an eye behind to make sure he doesn't get killed) that you are 100% aware that he is in front and that he should continue on?

the_pen_turner

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

What is the recognised signal for signalling to a cyclist ahead of you (who will be mainly looking ahead, while trying to keep an eye behind to make sure he doesn't get killed) that you are 100% aware that he is in front and that he should continue on?

megafone. just tell them.

queldy

As regarding this kind of situations, having right of way in a roundabout or cross or whatever, as a cyclist I always find frustrating those drivers which do not slow down and stop when I am approaching - they keep going, we make eye contact, and they keep going (like not to consume the brakes and do not waste fuel on the next acceleration).
This is frustrating because it is a clear dangerous situation for me on a bike! I have to slow down, I need to slow down, I decide to slow down - I cannot take the risk.
I wait till a clear signal of stopping from the driver; this leads to waste of time (seconds, not much) for both of us; but I would never keep going "assuming" the driver will respect me. Unfortunately, I cannot know this, and most of the time they don't anyway...

Maybe you and the cyclist were in a similar situation, if I understood well. Remember you are in a 1500kg car; also, the cyclist met in his 20min commute probably ~300/400 cars (50 of which, if not more, were potentially a danger for him) , while you met 5/10 cyclist (none of them generally are threatening your life when you are in a car), and many of them you did not even realise they were on the road.

If I was you, next time I would slow down and stop, clearly, even few meters before - that is the clearest signal to tell him you saw him and you will let him pass.

spookwoman

daretocareOC wrote: »

I slowed down as I approached and was waiting for the cyclist to pass me by before I entered the roundabout (I was not stationary) ...... and I actually signalled at him to let him know that I could see him and for him continue on.

He was already on the roundabout and had right of way. How would you feel if someone in a car while you were on a pedestrian crossing with red lights to traffic kept coming at you and then signaled to you to keep crossing even when the green walk was on.

daretocareOC wrote: »

I entered the roundabout but the cyclist seemed really annoyed at this point and continued to slow down which made the situation worse.
When we pulled onto the dual carriageway he was out on the road slightly so I had to move into the outside lane to try and avoid him and the car behind also had to move out to avoid him.

He was in the roundabout before you and was entitled to be out on the road. where was he supposed to cycle in the drain? You moved out to avoid him what about him avoiding you.

daretocareOC wrote: »

He upset me so I began to get frustrated and beeped aggressively at him (which I realise now I shouldn't have done)
but I was concerned for everyone's safety (myself, the car behind me and the cyclist).

Your not stopping didn't help and it sounds like you were thinking only about yourself. You don't know how experienced there were, he could have over compensated and come off the bike. Poor bugger could have gotten a fright and remember he's trying to balance, avoid debris and people like you.

daretocareOC wrote: »

I feel that we were probably both at fault but its really got me thinking about cyclists versus drivers.. Anyone else been in a similar situation?

Only person at fault was you. I drive, I do some cycling and I've also been a team leader getting women cycling. That involved helping them gain the confident to cycle on the road safely while following the rules of the road. From personal experience on the bike I find the safest option is to cycle near the center of the lane on the roundabout to stop people under and overtaking me. Its worse on a dual lane roundabout because you often get them cutting in front of you when entering and exiting.

punisher5112

1 metre if 50km/h or less and 1.5 metre if anything over is distance.

seamus

One of the big problems, and it seems to be fncking constant, is people letting their cars roll while they're waiting to turn. What's worse is that they seem to stop the car, and then as soon as they see a cyclist they let the car start rolling.

If you're waiting to turn - be that out of a driveway, sideroad, petrol station, onto a roundabout - and you are letting your car roll, then I have no idea if you're going to go or not. I have to assume that you haven't seen me and are about to knock me down. I'm going to stare at you and/or start waving at you and/or shout at you to make sure that you have seen me.

If you're waiting to turn, STOP. Drive up to the line and come to a dead stop. Stay like that until you are clear to go. You gain nothing by letting the car roll, and you're only causing confusion and danger by doing so.

On the pointing thing, when I'm indicating I usually point with my hand. So when I'm exiting a roundabout I usually end up pointing at cars that are waiting to get onto the roundabout. It's not intentional, but anything which makes them notice me and stop and think for a second can only be a good thing.

papu

daretocareOC wrote: »

Note that the exit we were both taking was onto a dual carriageway and there was a car behind me so it wasn't the safest of manoeuvres. When we pulled onto the dual carriageway he was out on the road slightly so I had to move into the outside lane to try and avoid him and the car behind also had to move out to avoid him. He had really startled me and upset me so I began to get frustrated and beeped aggressively at him (which I realise now I shouldn't have done) but I was concerned for everyone's safety (myself, the car behind me and the cyclist).

1. Dont understand this point, who wasn't performing safe maneuvering?
2. That's called a safe overtake..
3. Why are you getting agro?
4. A man on a push bike made you feel unsafe while you were inside your car? Moreover he made you concerned for the car behind you?

Perhaps reflect fully on the post you've written, and the situation, was all of this really necessary for the sake of coming to a full stop at a round about and spending 30 seconds being a cyclist?

Replace cyclist with tractor or Car. Would you be posting in the Farming or Motors thread right now?

magicbastarder

seamus wrote: »

One of the big problems, and it seems to be fncking constant, is people letting their cars roll while they're waiting to turn.

not just at roundabouts - at red lights. stop half a car length past the white line (which often puts them in the cyclist box) and inch forward slowly waiting for the lights to go green. the extra wear on the clutch is undoubtedly worth the extra quarter of a second that being 2 or 3m further down the road will give you.

eeeee

Of I'm on a roundabout and a car is not bit coming out from the left and not stopping - I will pike then out of it! Sometimes, despite looking straight at them, and they at you, they don't stop. The mind boggles.
Of course the cyclist has to slow down, they can't read your mind and don't know if your going to stop.
You were completely in the wrong, sorry OP.

The rolling thing is almost endemic now. Happens almost every day. And they look pissed off when you stare at them, have had to look behind you, signal and move out/slow down on the road or slow if on a roundabout. Again, the amount that keep coming, how am I supposed to now you're not one of them?! They seem surprised they have to stop. What is that about?!

Euro Fred

As with everyone else, if the car is moving as far as I know they haven’t seen me, I had one really close one and that was enough.

This article really hit home with me as to why drivers “miss” cyclists , the brain "scans" right to left /left to right not actually seeing what it is looking at.


http://www.londoncyclist.co.uk/raf-pilot-teach-cyclists/