DB's 'Real time' information unless

LeinsterDub

Ever since the end of the summer schedule on some routes and the return of the schools the 'real time' information has been useless. This morning both an 9 and 83 disappeared from the board before the 9 eventually arrived 5 minutes late. By the time the 9 arrived the next one was listed on the board as 9 minutes away. I got 5 stops on and bus I'm on is listed as due and the 9 minute away one is now only 2 minutes away?

I'm aware this system isn't real time but timeings have been off for weeks now. How long does it take DB to update their database?

Xterminator

Its not perfect, there are phantom buses for sure. i wouldn't call it useless either.

i use twitter to ask DB about vanished buses etc. they are very responsive, and usually have a very good reason when replying. you should contact them and see what they have to say.

LeinsterDub

Xterminator wrote: »

i use twitter to ask DB about vanished buses etc.

Twitter is great if you want to hear the standard line of they will check it out. We've had this system for years and it's getting worse not better.

Wheety

It's fine for giving you an idea of when a bus arrives but I'd like to see you design a system with pin point accuracy taking into account the crazy traffic in Dublin.

Xterminator wrote: »

Its not perfect, there are phantom buses for sure. i wouldn't call it useless either.

i use twitter to ask DB about vanished buses etc. they are very responsive, and usually have a very good reason when replying. you should contact them and see what they have to say.

You sure they don't just blame 'operational reasons'? :P

LeinsterDub

Wheety wrote: »

It's fine for giving you an idea of when a bus arrives but I'd like to see you design a system with pin point accuracy taking into account the crazy traffic in Dublin.

Not asking for pin point accuracy, but the system was designed to account for traffic. They are meant to have years of data and surely if a bus is consistently late for 2 weeks their system should be smart enough to learn that

Keyzer

Its probably running on a Windows XP desktop under someones desk cobbled together with twine and selotape. Give them a break for gods sake.

devnull

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Not asking for pin point accuracy, but the system was designed to account for traffic. They are meant to have years of data and surely if a bus is consistently late for 2 weeks their system should be smart enough to learn that

Trouble is the city center traffic flows change every week or two recently due to the LUAS works and road reconfigurations.

Wheety

devnull wrote: »

Trouble is the city center traffic flows change every week or two recently due to the LUAS works and road reconfigurations.

It changes daily with accidents too. The system is probably very confused.

brokenarms

devnull wrote: »

Trouble is the city center traffic flows change every week or two recently due to the LUAS works and road reconfigurations.

Thats only part of the problem.

The system needs to be more dynamic. With more information.

For example.

If it showed that a bus is running late or early or if its cancelled. Or if its running very late. A simple E or L or VL

If its running 10 mins late or more, people would get to know there is a good chance the driver will be told to drop his numbers and take it out of service to get back on track.

LeinsterDub

devnull wrote: »

Trouble is the city center traffic flows change every week or two recently due to the LUAS works and road reconfigurations.

I'm talking about a bus is 5 stops from its start in the suburbs

devnull

brokenarms wrote: »

If its running 10 mins late or more, people would get to know there is a good chance the driver will be told to drop his numbers and take it out of service to get back on track.

Turning short is no longer happening across much of the network in my experience, I've been on a bus a couple of times in the last month or so when I've heard a radio message ask the driver to do so and the driver has refused stating that such practice is in dispute with unions.

I've noticed in the past the 83 has a particular habit of disappearing from the RTI on the app at least.

ThisRegard

Xterminator wrote: »

Its not perfect, there are phantom buses for sure. i wouldn't call it useless either.

i use twitter to ask DB about vanished buses etc. they are very responsive, and usually have a very good reason when replying. you should contact them and see what they have to say.

Usually a stock answer with no bearing on what actually happened.

liger

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Not asking for pin point accuracy, but the system was designed to account for traffic. They are meant to have years of data and surely if a bus is consistently late for 2 weeks their system should be smart enough to learn that

The system is only as good as the person operating it. If a driver is told to go special (not operate ) and the controller doesn't remove that trip from the system, you end up with phantom buses. some inspectors haven't a clue how to operate the system correctly.

Also people see 5mins on the real time and assume that 5mins is set in stone. if the bus hasn't moved in 5mins the board will still show 5mins.... it's reactive to the traffic and delays.

AngryLips

LeinsterDub wrote: »

devnull wrote: »

Trouble is the city center traffic flows change every week or two recently due to the LUAS works and road reconfigurations.

I'm talking about a bus is 5 stops from its start in the suburbs

Doesn't it run on timetabled data and not real time data if it hasn't left the first stop yet? That's your problem. Though I feel DB should use real time of the previous journey where possible

coylemj

AngryLips wrote: »

Doesn't it run on timetabled data and not real time data if it hasn't left the first stop yet? That's your problem. Though I feel DB should use real time of the previous journey where possible

Yes and most people can probably accept that, if it's not yet time for the bus to depart from the terminus.

When people talk about a 'phantom bus', what they're referring to is the situation where it's past the departure time, no bus has departed but downstream stops show that the bus is on it's way and they show the minutes remaining to arrival step down and down and down and then with 2 minutes to go, the bus disappears. This happened me with an 84 which was due to depart Newcastle, Co. Wicklow at 17:10. At 18:15 I waited at a bus stop in Deansgrange which said that it was on the way so for over an hour the RTPI system maintained the fiction that there was a bus running but there was no such bus and with two minutes to go, it disappeared off the display and never arrived.

Complain to DB and they just copy & paste a stock reply, something like this....

In relation to the accuracy of the information being displayed, the system is designed to reflect, as accurately as possible, the time that a bus is due at a particular point. Traffic congestion can sometimes cause the information to fluctuate, and this is a normal part of the RTPI system.

However, instances may arise whereby a bus may be required to be rescheduled, for example due to traffic congestion, running behind schedule, accidents or diversions. As a result a bus which was displayed, may be rerouted or taken out of service, therefore this bus will disappear off the screen.

We are closely monitoring this system and we will continue to make adjustments to provide as accurate information as possible for our customers.

LeinsterDub

liger wrote: »

The system is only as good as the person operating it. If a driver is told to go special (not operate ) and the controller doesn't remove that trip from the system, you end up with phantom buses. some inspectors haven't a clue how to operate the system correctly.

Also people see 5mins on the real time and assume that 5mins is set in stone. if the bus hasn't moved in 5mins the board will still show 5mins.... it's reactive to the traffic and delays.

I'm aware of all that again I'll point out that the bus was at its 5th stop. Either these buses are constantly departing late or running into the same morning traffic. Either way update the estimated journey time.

KD345

coylemj wrote: »

Yes and most people can probably accept that, if it's not yet time for the bus to depart from the terminus.

This happened me with an 84 which was due to depart Newcastle, Co. Wicklow at 17:10. At 18:15 I waited at a bus stop in Deansgrange which said that it was on the way so for over an hour the RTPI system maintained the fiction that there was a bus running but there was no such bus and with two minutes to go, it disappeared off the display and never arrived.

There is also the possibility that something happened this bus a few stops ahead of yours.

I have been on buses recently which have broken down, been vandalised or had to divert off route because of an accident. On each of these incidents the RTPI was either cancelled or dropped off affected stops. I suppose this is just the nature of the 'real time' system and will never be 100% accurate.

There are major improvements needed for the service. One concern I have is how this operation will be developed. With 10% of Dublin Bus routes soon to leave the company, I wonder will all management of RTPI be transferred to Transport For Ireland. It would seem like the best solution, otherwise we'll be paying for a second system just for the sake of another operator.

Dyr

There was a website that managed to present RTPI data in a far better way that Dublin Bus Managed to, think it was just a guy did it as a project. Problem in Ireland is that solutions tend to be implemented in a manner to suit the needs of the vested interests instead of the customer

This should not be difficult to do properly, you make the system truly real time passed on GPS data (so the user knows WHERE the bus is as well as the estimated arrival time and then use the real time tracking from other buses that are on the same stretch of road to predict arrival times more accurately.

Of course Dublin Bus' inability to actually run their services doesn't help RTPI

coylemj

KD345 wrote: »

There is also the possibility that something happened this bus a few stops ahead of yours.

Sorry.... 'something happened' - are you frigging serious? The system got no affirmative (GPS) signals, yet for over an hour claimed that the bus was on the move, purely because that was the default?

whiskeygirl

69 was like clockwork during summer. 8.35 ex Rathcoole service would be at my stop between 8.55-8.58 and I'd be at my desk in Dublin 8 by 9.40 at the latest. Last Monday, RTPI was showing usual "7 mins" when I left my house for the stop, but once I'd gotten there this had changed to "22 mins" which was no good to me so I had to hoof it down to the 13 stop a 15 minute walk away and then use that til Kylemore for the Luas.

I just used the 13 to Kylemore Luas on Tues/Wed/Thurs as didn't trust the RTPI not to mess me up again, but gave it another chance this morning. This time it was showing "13 mins" when I left for the stop, which I thought was more realistic with kids being back etc. Of course "13 mins" changed to "29 mins" once I got to the stop, which resulted in another mad dash. Dublin Bus on Twitter said they'd report issue to duty inspector both times I complained, whatever that means.

So yeah, I've given up on RTPI and will just use 13+Luas from now on. Think it costs me 3c more than 69 would each journey, which I can live with.

KD345

coylemj wrote: »

Sorry.... 'something happened' - are you frigging serious? The system got no affirmative (GPS) signals, yet for over an hour claimed that the bus was on the move, purely because that was the default?

But that is what could have happened. It may have been operating on time until a few stops ahead of yours. It may have broken down, suffered vandalism or some other incident. The problem is that as users of the app we simply don't know. Ideally, the app would tell you that a service has been cancelled or diverted, but that feature is not available. It wouldn't have made your bus arrive but at least you would have know what happened.

It is very frustrating, I had the same problem during the week. I timed a bus, got to the stop in good time with 6 mins showing before it vanished off the screen.

Another thing to do is call Dublin Bus themselves when buses disappear off the RTPI. I find them very forthcoming with information. On a recent call I made, it was explained that the bus I was waiting for was operating but could not get out of a housing estate due to an ambulance blocking the road following an accident. No system can deal with that and buses will always be delayed/cancelled.

LeinsterDub

KD345 wrote: »

Another thing to do is call Dublin Bus themselves when buses disappear off the RTPI. I find them very forthcoming with information. On a recent call I made, it was explained that the bus I was waiting for was operating but could not get out of a housing estate due to an ambulance blocking the road following an accident. No system can deal with that and buses will always be delayed/cancelled.

The control centre knew so it's not that difficult for them to input that information into the rtpi system.

prinzeugen

Arian Attractive Padding wrote: »

I've noticed in the past the 83 has a particular habit of disappearing from the RTI on the app at least.

Not just the 83. The 18 "vanishes" around Sundrive Rd heading towards Sandymount only to sometimes reappear.

The same happens at the Dart crossing going the other way.

ED E

Cant blame BXD for everything. 75 is a total joke and it goes nowhere near the city.


I dont know the exact implementation but I'm pretty sure my deductions are correct.

Stop 1234 is 15min from terminus.
Bus due to enter service at 0700 say.
At 0700 RTPI indicates 15mins
At 0705 RTPI indicates 10mins
At 0710 RTPI track disappears when it realises its not running as the drivers in bed with a hangover. Its now back to 35 mins for the subsequent service.


Use a feckin map. End of. Predictions are great but only when they're somewhat accurate which RTPI has never been. Ask any Joe soap that uses DB.


PS: My tinfoil hat reasoning is RTPI hides DBs crappy performance so they can lie about on time services to the NTA.

Dyr

ED E wrote: »

PS: My tinfoil hat reasoning is RTPI hides DBs crappy performance so they can lie about on time services to the NTA.

Well they deffo pull buses out of service but keep them up on RTPI, unless its just the driver going rogue...

devnull

ED E wrote: »

Cant blame BXD for everything. 75 is a total joke and it goes nowhere near the city.

Use a feckin map. End of. Predictions are great but only when they're somewhat accurate which RTPI has never been. Ask any Joe soap that uses DB.


PS: My tinfoil hat reasoning is RTPI hides DBs crappy performance so they can lie about on time services to the NTA.

Good luck funding that for every stop and getting the planning permission.

ED E

devnull wrote: »

Good luck funding that for every stop and getting the planning permission.

In that particular city (Equivalent to Galway) they're mostly built into the shelter where the JCD advert would be.

LXFlyer

ED E wrote: »

Cant blame BXD for everything. 75 is a total joke and it goes nowhere near the city.


I dont know the exact implementation but I'm pretty sure my deductions are correct.

Stop 1234 is 15min from terminus.
Bus due to enter service at 0700 say.
At 0700 RTPI indicates 15mins
At 0705 RTPI indicates 10mins
At 0710 RTPI track disappears when it realises its not running as the drivers in bed with a hangover. Its now back to 35 mins for the subsequent service.


Use a feckin map. End of. Predictions are great but only when they're somewhat accurate which RTPI has never been. Ask any Joe soap that uses DB.


PS: My tinfoil hat reasoning is RTPI hides DBs crappy performance so they can lie about on time services to the NTA.

What is wrong with the 75 since the new timetable was introduced?

bk

devnull wrote: »

Good luck funding that for every stop and getting the planning permission.

Well it would be trivial to display the same information on a phone app.

Also easy to integrate into bus shelters (there is already power their) and could be paid for by advertising, alternate between this display and an add every few seconds. Actually quiet a nice idea IMO.

As an aside, I don't know why the NTA went with separate poles for RTPI, causing more street clutter and sometimes you can't see the RTPI screen from under the shelter (like my local stop).

In Cork they have RTPI screens integrated directly into the bus shelter, just above head height. Less clutter and much more convenient for the people standing under the shelter.

ED E

LXFlyer wrote: »

What is wrong with the 75 since the new timetable was introduced?

The bus itself is ok, just the RTPI is bollox.

7,6,1, Gone........6, 7, 7, 7, due - arrived 4 minutes later.

The service I ended up getting was the one after the one I had scheduled to meet. Meanwhile there were 2x in the other direction back to back 1 minute after another had left in the same direction.


Actually, the bus itself isnt OK, thanks to the scrotes in Tallaght its curtailed.

LXFlyer

ED E wrote: »

The bus itself is ok, just the RTPI is bollox.

7,6,1, Gone........6, 7, 7, 7, due - arrived 4 minutes later.

The service I ended up getting was the one after the one I had scheduled to meet. Meanwhile there were 2x in the other direction back to back 1 minute after another had left in the same direction.


Actually, the bus itself isnt OK, thanks to the scrotes in Tallaght its curtailed.

What time of day and direction was this and where?

I can guess at the reason for the bunching....

LeinsterDub

A week on and still no improvement. Must be a a major technical issue they are resolving