Disputing Council fees

breffnij

Hi,

I am just enquiring if anyone has had any joy in overturning part of the contribution fees to their council for a new house.

I have an issue with fingal county council over two elements of my fees:

1. My contribution charges include a contribution of €5,000 for @Community & Parks'. My nearest playground is 14km away and a friend of mine told me he has got a write off by fingal previously for this. He explained the process they went through after threatening letters i.e. a man called to his houses, assessed his complaints over lack of local amenities and then told him to write a cheque for the following amount and hand into fingal offices and that will be the end of it. This was less than 5 years ago. Said he will happily go to court and tell a judge this if needs be.

2. I got hit with a contribution fee for garage retention. Both myself and architect called and spoke with the planner in October/November who told us no fees would apply. We built the garage in Novemeber and submitted the plans early the following year. We were then told that because the plans were submitted in 2017 I was now subject to the new plan which meant full fees applied (over €3000). I said nobody informed me of a change in plan and that given I spoke to the planner they should of informed me of this given the proximity of our conversation and the new development plan. They said there is nothing they can do.

Any information appreciated

Gumbo

1. Doesn't sound correct. The guy at the door step would have been a levies inspector and they are generally an admin grade. They wouldn't have the power to decide what level of contribution is paid. It sounds like your friend was pulling your leg.

2. This is correct. The contributions on extensions above the exemptions limit is in force and if you are unlucky enough to lodge a day after another person you could be hit and they would not have been. There are transition periods and lead in times so nobody got hot off guard. Anybody with the foot in the water so to speak would have been aware of these development levy changes.

breffnij

1. He's not. Has a record of payments & receipts.

2. No lead time given. Voted in late Dec and law on 1st Jan. Other councils I emailed gave up 6 months lee way. Even if I applied under old law technically if the decision was made past Jan 1st I'd be obliged to pay. I feel that's unfair. What was stopping the council delaying decisions to the max 12 weeks to push an applicant to the new law. Looked at the this & strictly says decisions made from Jan 1st.

breffnij

Also contacting the planner means seeking advice on all aspects of building including fees. Twice we spoke about this issue & twice told no fees nor a mention of them being introduced so ensure I get paperwork in.

I feel that going directly is sufficient as opposed to trying to get information myself & guessing implications.

Gumbo

breffnij wrote: »

1. He's not. Has a record of payments & receipts.

2. No lead time given. Voted in late Dec and law on 1st Jan. Other councils I emailed gave up 6 months lee way. Even if I applied under old law technically if the decision was made past Jan 1st I'd be obliged to pay. I feel that's unfair. What was stopping the council delaying decisions to the max 12 weeks to push an applicant to the new law. Looked at the this & strictly says decisions made from Jan 1st.

1. The guy at the door cannot amend or alter the development levy. Something is not adding up here. I've carried out levy inspections for Dublin City Council and I had no power to alter the figure.

2. Usually here are decided by the council but they must go to public notice. If they are part of the development plan then they also must go on public display for a variation to the plan. The planner you dealt with may not of having any prior knowledge to the changes as they obviously are part of the development planning rather than forward planning. They are separate groups within the planning section and one role doesn't cross to the other.

Gumbo

breffnij wrote: »

Also contacting the planner means seeking advice on all aspects of building including fees. Twice we spoke about this issue & twice told no fees nor a mention of them being introduced so ensure I get paperwork in.

I feel that going directly is sufficient as opposed to trying to get information myself & guessing implications.

The planner has no involvement with the fees. Once planning is granted then a separate contributions team apply the levies on the development.

*im not advocating not disputing them btw. You have to try, what's the worse they can say.

sydthebeat

3000 development fee on a garage??

Surely not a domestic garage?

breffnij

Ah I understand & appreciate reply.


I think worst case is I lose & fees awarded against me. Not sure how much that could amount to in district court but I'm aware and ready to challenge.

breffnij

sydthebeat wrote: »

3000 development fee on a garage??

Surely not a domestic garage?

Sadly yes. Full fees apply. No first 25m exempt or anything. Fingal fees are very high.

Rabbo

The Fingal County Council contribution scheme should be clearly set out in their development plan. First port of call is to check it and see if they have calculated the contribution correctly and in line with the CPD. If they have, you have little chance of getting it changed. If you think they applied the levy incorrectly, you're main route to get it sorted is to appeal the condition to An Bord Pleanala. Note that this could take 4-6 months and you can't start work until it is sorted. You can only appeal the ABP within 4 weeks of the decision of the council and the will charge you €220 for the pleasure. My understanding is only a county manager or ABP can overturn/change a condition on a planning

breffnij

Rabbo wrote: »

The Fingal County Council contribution scheme should be clearly set out in their development plan. First port of call is to check it and see if they have calculated the contribution correctly and in line with the CPD. If they have, you have little chance of getting it changed. If you think they applied the levy incorrectly, you're main route to get it sorted is to appeal the condition to An Bord Pleanala. Note that this could take 4-6 months and you can't start work until it is sorted. You can only appeal the ABP within 4 weeks of the decision of the council and the will charge you €220 for the pleasure. My understanding is only a county manager or ABP can overturn/change a condition on a planning

I'm long past on ABP appeal at this stage as entered discussions with Fingal over the issue months ago & date passed. ABP didn't believe I could be charged for garage and insisted I got it wrong until they looked into plan. Just said they were surprised to see this.

Calculation correct- think its just time to stand up and question the system they now use/ used. Anyone know what potential costs could be against me in district court if I lose?! :D:D:p

Pkiernan

breffnij wrote: »

I'm long past on ABP appeal at this stage as entered discussions with Fingal over the issue months ago & date passed. ABP didn't believe I could be charged for garage and insisted I got it wrong until they looked into plan. Just said they were surprised to see this.

Calculation correct- think its just time to stand up and question the system they now use/ used. Anyone know what potential costs could be against me in district court if I lose?! :D:D:p

When you lose you mean.

FCC have unlimited legal resources and will fight you all the way to the Supreme Court if necessary.

breffnij

Pkiernan wrote: »

When you lose you mean.

FCC have unlimited legal resources and will fight you all the way to the Supreme Court if necessary.

sure why wouldn't they. Not their money after all.

Dumdeelicious

Has anyone ever been taken to court or threatened to be taken to court by Fingal County Council over late payment of contribution fees?

Gumbo

Dumdeelicious wrote: »

Has anyone ever been taken to court or threatened to be taken to court by Fingal County Council over late payment of contribution fees?

Late payment indicates you have paid, or non payment?

rayjdav

If I understand you, now you are looking for Leave to Appeal a condition of planning permission? That condition been the contributions?
Under S.48(10) of the Act you have no basis for the appeal unless you can show that FCC were negligent in their appropriation of the contribution applied. This section deals with ABP but a judge will take note of this section before granting Leave to Appeal. I'd have all my ducks in a row before I even considered taking the legal route, could/will end up costing a pretty penny.

Just accept it and enter into a payment schedule with the LA? Cheaper for you by a long shot.

Dumdeelicious

kceire wrote: »

Late payment indicates you have paid, or non payment?

No the party in question are making monthly installments

Gumbo

Dumdeelicious wrote: »

No the party in question are making monthly installments

Unusual for the council to proceed with legal proceedings if they are already in a payment plan.

Dumdeelicious

rayjdav wrote: »

If I understand you, now you are looking for Leave to Appeal a condition of planning permission? That condition been the contributions?
Under S.48(10) of the Act you have no basis for the appeal unless you can show that FCC were negligent in their appropriation of the contribution applied. This section deals with ABP but a judge will take note of this section before granting Leave to Appeal. I'd have all my ducks in a row before I even considered taking the legal route, could/will end up costing a pretty penny.

Just accept it and enter into a payment schedule with the LA? Cheaper for you by a long shot.

The party are living in the house and paying what they can afford each month off the contribution amount - no payments have been missed. It was expected another lump sum would follow but is not possible and they have sent correspondence that unless paid legal proceedings would take place - I have never heard them take this course of action before and wondering if they have done this with anyone else?

Penn

breffnij wrote: »

I'm long past on ABP appeal at this stage as entered discussions with Fingal over the issue months ago & date passed. ABP didn't believe I could be charged for garage and insisted I got it wrong until they looked into plan. Just said they were surprised to see this.

Calculation correct- think its just time to stand up and question the system they now use/ used. Anyone know what potential costs could be against me in district court if I lose?! :D:D:p

The issue is that it was retention permission. Garages are exempt in the Fingal Development Contribution Scheme, however, as per the scheme:

10 (ii) For clarification purposes;
(a) Exemptions and reductions shall not apply to permissions for
retention of development

Per Fingal's website,

It should be noted that from 1st January 2018, the Development Contribution Rates will increase by 6.30% in accordance with the Tender Price Index. The rates of contributions effective from 1st January 2018 shall be as follows:

Residential €85.94 per m2

Non-residential €67.11 per m2

If your fees are over €3,000, extrapolating from the figure for residential development contribution fees to be paid of €85.94/sq.m gives an area of at least 35sq.m. (Residential class as non-residential refers to industrial/commercial development, not a garage ancillary to a residential dwelling).

The rise introduced at the start of the year is the annual inflation in line with the Tender Price Index, as stated in Fingal's Development Contribution Scheme 2016-2020.

Note 1: These rates of contributions shall be effective from 1st January 2016 to 31st December 2020. Indexation in accordance with the Chartered Surveyors of Ireland Construction Tender Price Index will apply annually on 1st January. Having regard to economic or other circumstances and, subject to the approval of the Council, it may be considered appropriate not to apply this indexation for any year(s).

http://www.fingal.ie/media/Development%20Contribution%20Scheme%202016-2020.pdf

Sorry breffnij, but if the area of your garage matches the fee you've been charged as per the figures shown above and on their website, you don't have a leg to stand on. Had you gotten planning permission prior to building, you would have been exempt from the fees altogether, and even if you got retention permission granted before January 1st, you still would have had to pay the figure applicable for last year, which was only 6.3% less. Regardless of what you were told by your agent, or planners... the fee is still applicable. It might be possible to negotiate a reduction in the fees with good reason, but that's completely at the discretion of the Council.

Edit: Re-reading your first post, the planner probably told you no fees would apply as that was in October/November, and as you said you started building in November. The planner was correct that no fees would apply had you gone for planning before you built. But because it became a retention permission, the exemption from the development contribution scheme no longer applied. That's where I think the confusion is coming from.

Gumbo

Dumdeelicious wrote: »

The party are living in the house and paying what they can afford each month off the contribution amount - no payments have been missed. It was expected another lump sum would follow but is not possible and they have sent correspondence that unless paid legal proceedings would take place - I have never heard them take this course of action before and wondering if they have done this with anyone else?

This is different then, so they want to alter the agreed payment plan.
Can they source a small loan from elsewhere and pay them back over a longer period, like the Credit Union or similar.

Dumdeelicious

kceire wrote: »

This is different then, so they want to alter the agreed payment plan.
Can they source a small loan from elsewhere and pay them back over a longer period, like the Credit Union or similar.

Its not currently possible due to circumstances to pay quicker.
Just wondering how real the threat is re legal proceedings

Gumbo

Dumdeelicious wrote: »

Its not currently possible due to circumstances to pay quicker.
Just wondering how real the threat is re legal proceedings

Very real in my opinion.

Dumdeelicious

kceire wrote: »

Very real in my opinion.

Based on what?
Do you know of a case where action was taken?:rolleyes:

Gumbo

Dumdeelicious wrote: »

Based on what?
Do you know of a case where action was taken?:rolleyes:

Didn’t get the answer you wanted to hear so resort to weird face icons :rolleyes:

Yeah ok, I’m out of this thread. Best of luck in court or tell “your friend” to pay up.

ustari

To be fair you mentioned "in my opinion" and then didn't provide any actual examples of it.

I agree that there is no need for the smiley faces.

shay gibl

The development plan is the "peoples" document and these charges are quite literally absurd.

I would write to each of our local councilors and ask for their help which is what they're "employed" to do.