Where are the bodies?

nikonuser

Where are the bodies?
I know the larger Dublin Graveyards, Glasnevin opening in 1828, Deansgrange in 1865 and Mount Jerome in 1836 have over 2 million persons buried. Before these opened what of the millions who died in Dublin?

I have found relatives from the early 1700’s, Baptised and Married in both St Michan’s and St Paul’s on the Quays. I will assume they would have lived and died in the areas. Where would these have been buried? Had all the Churches their own graveyards. I know burial records are scarce prior to the larger cemeteries opening but any thoughts on whether these smaller churches kept records?

See my post ‘Looking for Granny” of Sept 2015. This is something of a similar query. Granny hasn't been found yet, as an aside.

J

Peregrinus

Well, you talk about "millions" who died in Dublin before 1828, but in fact for most of history it was by our standards a pretty small place. In 1300 it had a population of about 8,000, which rose to 20,000 by about 1640, though that was halved by plague in the 1650s. By the end of the seventeenth century it was up to about 60,000, and in the 100 or 120 years or so it rose to 180,000, by which time Glasnevin, etc, were starting to open. So not exactly "millions" of deaths, up to that point..

Still, quite a lot of deaths; what did they do with the cadavers? Leaving aside times of war or plague, when mass graves/plague pits on common ground were used, people were mostly buried in churchyards. By "churchyards" we mostly mean Church of Ireland churchyards. Everyone living in the (CofI) parish had a right to burial in the CofI churchyard, regardless of whether they were Anglicans themselves, while Catholic chapels in Dublin generally didn't have burial grounds attached.

Most burials were not marked with a tombstone or memorial or even an exclusive grave-plot; that was really only for the quality. When a churchyard filled up, they simply started again in the opposite corner and dug fresh graves over existing burials. If they found they were doing this more often than about every 10 years or so, they got a bit squeamish about the visible remains that were being disturbed, and they would try to solve the problem by extending the churchyard, though that wasn't always possible.

Each parish had (or was supposed to have) a burial register, in which was recorded who was buried in the churchyard, though not necessarily exactly where. But the survival of these has been patchy. Quite a lot of the older records had made there way to the Public Records Office by 1922, where they were mostly destroyed when the PRO was blown up. Those that weren't destroyed are now in the National Archives. Some registers made their way to the Representative Church Body archives, where they still are. And some registers are still held in parishes. In general, though, less attention was paid to preserving burial registers than registers of baptisms and marriages.

Here's a link to a document which attempts to catalogue CofI parish records, and where (if anywhere) they are now held.

pinkypinky

Just to add to Peregrinus's excellent reply: there are more COI records in the RCB Library than in the National Archives at this stage. For Dublin, most of these records are on irishgenealogy.ie

As a genealogist with Dublin ancestors, you just have to get used to the fact that you won't know where most of them are buried. I've been experimenting with the Glasnevin records as time and money allows this year and have found quite a lot of southside ancestors buried in there. I haven't found a pattern for who chooses Deansgrange or Mount Jerome over Glasnevin. And incidentally, with the exception of one great-grandfather who died in the 1960s, I haven't found any of my COI ancestors burials.

nikonuser

Peregrinus
Many thanks for that. I'll knock some zeroes off the millions so but as you say 'quite a lot of deaths'. The link you sent suggests that St Paul's may have some records in the National Archives, worth a trip maybe. My people, 'Dodd's', were not the 'quality' that would have expected a marker or tombstone so I would be happy for even a recorded notation somewhere.

My earlier post searching for Mary Anne Meroe, died 1866 in the Cholera epidemic, proved fruitless despite all the help from the Glasnevin staff and the members of this forum.

The National Archives the next point of call.

Thanks for all that detailed information. I have begun to imagine a completely different Dublin in my head.

Cheers
J

nikonuser

So, the 2 Churches in question, St Paul's on the Quays and St Michan's in Halston St (now that I know it is not the one in Church St) would possibly have some areas of the Church grounds that have burials? I really have to get rid of my image of Dublin with tarmacadam, concrete, footpaths, railed-in church yards. Also, there seems so little space that there would have been graveyards attached to these churches.
Time to get in to the city & start walking.
Thank again to Peregrinus & pinkypinky for their help.

J

pinkypinky

I believe all the NAI material is digitised on irishgenealogy.ie now. St Paul's is on Rootsireland though, I'm not sure why.

Most Catholic churches in Dublin city did not have their own burial grounds. A quick phone call to St Michan's will answer that.

nikonuser

pinkypinky thanks for your response. I'll buzz St Michan's also try rootsireland. Irish Geneology is at hand too. J

Mollymoo19

Don't forget Bully's Acre near the Royal Hospital Kilmainham. This is where thousands of Dubliners were buried, before Glasnevin opened. I'd be pleasantly surprised to hear of any records. Sean Murphy did a study, with headstone inscriptions, though very few people had headstones. Link - http://homepage.eircom.net/~seanjmurphy/epubs/

cfuserkildare

Actually,
" Each parish had (or was supposed to have) a burial register, in which was recorded who was buried in the churchyard, though not necessarily exactly where. But the survival of these has been patchy. Quite a lot of the older records had made there way to the Public Records Office by 1922, where they were mostly destroyed when the PRO was blown up. Those that weren't destroyed are now in the National Archives. Some registers made their way to the Representative Church Body archives, where they still are. And some registers are still held in parishes. In general, though, less attention was paid to preserving burial registers than registers of baptisms and marriages. "
Strictly true, Each Parish held the original records, and a copy was sent from each Parish to the GPO.

pinkypinky

Cfuserkildare: is that quote from Peregrinus's post above?
That refers to CoI parishes.

cfuserkildare

pinkypinky wrote: »

Cfuserkildare: is that quote from Peregrinus's post above?
That refers to CoI parishes.

Yeh,
Apologies, I should have been clearer.

Peregrinus

nikonuser wrote: »

So, the 2 Churches in question, St Paul's on the Quays and St Michan's in Halston St (now that I know it is not the one in Church St) would possibly have some areas of the Church grounds that have burials? I really have to get rid of my image of Dublin with tarmacadam, concrete, footpaths, railed-in church yards. Also, there seems so little space that there would have been graveyards attached to these churches.
Time to get in to the city & start walking.

In many cases the churchyards are now public parks; for example the park beside the former St Mary's Church in Wolfe Tone St. Some of them are paved and now serve as parking space, e.g. beside St. Mark's in Pearse St. Some of them have been built on, or partly built on - St. Andrew's in Andrew St, for example. A large chunk of the churchyard attached to Christ Church lies underneath Christchurch Place, which was realigned when Lord Edward St was constructed.

tabbey

Peregrinus wrote: »

In many cases the churchyards are now public parks; for example the park beside the former St Mary's Church in Wolfe Tone St. Some of them are paved and now serve as parking space, e.g. beside St. Mark's in Pearse St. Some of them have been built on, or partly built on - St. Andrew's in Andrew St, for example. A large chunk of the churchyard attached to Christ Church lies underneath Christchurch Place, which was realigned when Lord Edward St was constructed.

And Saint Kevin's is also a park, with some of the headstones leaning against a wall and others on the ground serving as paving slabs. Be careful here, the methadonian community is well represented in the vicinity.

kildarejohn

The OP's question was "where are the bodies" and I experimented with Griffiths Valuation as a way to research the answer.
If you put "yard" in as the Surname in a search in findmypast.ie, you find 70+ graveyards in Dublin county, and you can get the area in Acres/Roods/Perches of most.
Unfortunately the same search technique does not work for Dublin City, but you can find them by browsing through the images - each graveyard was listed as they were exempt from rates.
The same search technique will of course work for other counties for anyone interested.

tracey turnblad

St michans church is on church st and it has a graveyard.

pinkypinky

We're talking about the Catholic St Michans on Halston St, rather than the COI one.

nikonuser

You beat me to it, pinkypinky, I had just discovered that there are 2 St Michan's from my post, yesterday, 'a question of faith' and it is surely the one in Halston St that on my radar.
Cheers,
J