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New SNA model

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  • 01-09-2017 3:43pm
    #1
    mirrorwall14
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,751 ✭✭✭


    Just wondering how SNAs/teachers/schools are finding the "new" set up where the SNA is not allowed sit with the student? It feels a little like a complete waste of resources to me. Student up the front with the teacher trying to keep them on task/book out and calling them out all the time when the SNA is not allowed to be with them unless its a care need

    Seems a bit batty to me tbh


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    #2
    Lady_North1
    Registered Users Posts: 258 ✭✭Lady_North1


    I don't understand why you would call it a new model... I've been an SNA for 14 years and I've rarely sat beside the child. Of course I have done and still do on occasion but it's not a new model to sit away from the child.
    In our school we operate by sitting away from the child but going over to interact when required. Sitting where we can make eye contact to maintain a connection as required.


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    #3
    mirrorwall14
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,751 ✭✭✭mirrorwall14


    Lady_North1 wrote: »
    I don't understand why you would call it a new model... I've been an SNA for 14 years and I've rarely sat beside the child. Of course I have done and still do on occasion but it's not a new model to sit away from the child.
    In our school we operate by sitting away from the child but going over to interact when required. Sitting where we can make eye contact to maintain a connection as required.

    Apologies if I've misinterpreted what I've been told but our SNAs are literally now at the back of the room (and by and large the student requiring support is right up the front) and I was told this is what our SNAs have to do because of a new recommendation? They can't catch the students eye now, they are miles away from them


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    #4
    Lady_North1
    Registered Users Posts: 258 ✭✭Lady_North1


    Haven't heard of any recommendations like that. I know we are only there for "care needs" but not being able to support your student would be very frustrating for me. Whatever happened to children first......


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    #5
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    It could depend on the age of the student maybe! The NCSE recommend a gradual withdrawal as they get older and progress through secondary school. I'm just guessing!
    If the student is physically unable to keep up (or being placed at a disadvantage by the removal of the SNA) then it could be argued that their care needs aren't being met.
    Where did the SNA get their info from? PArents, Principal ,Learning Support CoOrdinator? You'ld probably have to talk to the learning support coordinator in your school.


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    #6
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,481 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    mirrorwall14 wrote: »
    Just wondering how SNAs/teachers/schools are finding the "new" set up where the SNA is not allowed sit with the student? It feels a little like a complete waste of resources to me. Student up the front with the teacher trying to keep them on task/book out and calling them out all the time when the SNA is not allowed to be with them unless its a care need

    Seems a bit batty to me tbh

    SNAs are for care needs only , the DES is trying to do away with the " parrot on the shoulder " model .


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    #7
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    SNAs are for care needs only , the DES is trying to do away with the " parrot on the shoulder " model .

    I suppose each case is unique though, and we don't really want to be getting in to the specific circumstances of that particular student. Are the students physical care needs still being met OP, like going from class to class etc?

    Probably going off on a sidetrack but just wondering what road it's going down...
    One thing I don't understand about the above position BHOBC is that the DES recommend withdrawing the close shadowing of the child as they progress through Secondary... but at the same time recommend -in nearly every WSE inspection report and SEN guidelines- that resource teachers provide in-class support to the student(S) instead of withdrawal.

    Could it be the case that they are slowly aiming to phase out the SNA and phase in a 'classroom assistant' type of post like in the UK. It moves away from 'care needs' and towards providing support to the teacher to meet 'education needs'. That's with my tinfoil hat on. But I've heard of quite a few cases where schools try out the in-class support (and team teaching!!) and it just doesn't work to the particular student's benefit. But yet, the Dept. still keep banging the drum without ever asking schools what the outcome of it is when schools go to 'tick the box'. Plus, no time is ever given towards planning between the SNA/Resource Teacher/Class Teacher.


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    #8
    happyday
    Registered Users Posts: 1,323 ✭✭✭happyday


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    SNAs are for care needs only , the DES is trying to do away with the " parrot on the shoulder " model .

    Where can I find out more about this? I haven't heard much about it and I'd like to be better informed.


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    #9
    strawberrie
    Registered Users Posts: 180 ✭✭strawberrie


    https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0030_2014.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjuuOyGhIbWAhXGLlAKHaBGDp8QFggiMAA&usg=AFQjCNEq-JeNQmLL2fn28SNN5AuprenZOg
    Have a read of this dept circular. Outlines expected duties in it.


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    #10
    happyday
    Registered Users Posts: 1,323 ✭✭✭happyday


    mirrorwall14 wrote: »
    Apologies if I've misinterpreted what I've been told but our SNAs are literally now at the back of the room (and by and large the student requiring support is right up the front) and I was told this is what our SNAs have to do because of a new recommendation? They can't catch the students eye now, they are miles away from them

    Can you ask what recommendation this is? We don't work that way in our school. It's all about the child's needs. If they need me near them I sit near them. If not I sit away from them. It can vary day to day.


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    #11
    mirrorwall14
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,751 ✭✭✭mirrorwall14


    happyday wrote: »
    Can you ask what recommendation this is? We don't work that way in our school. It's all about the child's needs. If they need me near them I sit near them. If not I sit away from them. It can vary day to day.

    I could have got the wrong end of a stick tbh, I don't usually have SNAs in my subjects. My understanding of it is that our SNAs/management have been told that the SNAs have to withdraw from students completely from a student in class unless in extreme circumstances. Could be wrong as I said, not something I usually work with. I just know an SNA who was saying it was such a waste of resources sitting down the back twiddling her thumbs when she could be helping more


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    #12
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    mirrorwall14 wrote: »
    I could have got the wrong end of a stick tbh, I don't usually have SNAs in my subjects. My understanding of it is that our SNAs/management have been told that the SNAs have to withdraw from students completely from a student in class unless in extreme circumstances. Could be wrong as I said, not something I usually work with. I just know an SNA who was saying it was such a waste of resources sitting down the back twiddling her thumbs when she could be helping more

    It's not a healthy situation TBH, but ideally I presume it's to encourage independence and stop isolation amongst peers during class.

    It's probably just an awkward position for the SNA who was used to helping but now has to stop. Unfortunately an SNA's job can be tied to a particular student, so that could be making the SNA anxious too. The school is free to redeploy the SNA to 'other duties' , so for example the SNA could shadow the student to class and then head off to help with admin or organise other students timetables/lockers for them, then be there at the end of the class.

    See how it goes, it's probably early in the year to be reaching a conclusion. Just be prepaid to know what the school is at, so you don't put yer foot in it if you're talking to parents. They should have communicated this change to parents... but may not have!


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    #13
    Lady_North1
    Registered Users Posts: 258 ✭✭Lady_North1


    SNAs do not and should not be doing admin..... if a teacher needs resources etc for SEN child them of course you assist but admin is not part of the job.

    My general rule for my role is....
    If there's a job that needs to be done and it would still exist if there are no special needs children in the school then it's not my job...... of course there's give and take and I do jobs that are not technically part of my role but seeing SNAs being used as a whole school resource is very frustrating. We are there to support children with sen not the teachers.


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    #14
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    I have heard nothing about any changes and our SNAs are working the same way as always. Most of the SNA allocation in my school is for EBD/ODD so it's important for them to work closely with the student. They don't sit glued to their side but sitting at the back waiting for an issue to arise would defeat the purpose.


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