Annoyed Golfer with a Rules Question

54and56

Hi all,

I recently played a singles Stableford comp and was going well. Towards the end of the round on a blind par 4 I hit a really good drive. I know the hole well and immediately visualised where my ball would likely be (off the fairway on the 2nd cut) once I got over the hill.

As I came over the hill I saw one of the party ahead playing a shot from the location I expected my ball to be in. His playing partners were already on the green (which is why we tee'd off) so it looked like he had been on the adjacent fairway out of sight looking for his ball when we tee'd off.

When I got to the point where I expected my ball to be there was no sign of it. The guys ahead had putted out and were tee'ing off the next hole. My playing partners and I searched for my ball but no joy. I was annoyed and walked back up the hill along the 2nd cut about 50 yards where I found another ball which looked like it had recently landed there i.e. sitting up in the grass and clean etc.

My conclusion was that the guy ahead had been looking for his ball and mistakenly played mine.

I was pi$$ed off at having to scratch the hole.

I've looked up the rules ref playing a wrong ball and understand the penalties the guy in the party ahead should have incurred if he did in fact play my ball but I can't find anything which addresses the situation for the person (me in this case) who has had their ball taken from them. Could I have made some sort of declaration that the guy ahead must have played my ball, drop a new ball where I estimated the guy had hit "my" ball from and carried on or do I just have to suck it up??

I had hoped to catch the guy later in the round and ask him to check the ball he was playing but there was only 3 holes left on the homeward stretch and by the time we finished and got to the clubhouse there was no sign of him.

Any rules guru's here who can put me out of my misery?

fred funk }{

It's just tough luck, I'm afraid. You see, you don't know for sure that he hit your ball and yours could have been lost in the rough.

Imagine the carry-on on a Sunday morning comp if you could declare that your lost ball was played by someone else and you got free relief.

54and56

fred funk }{ wrote: »

It's just tough luck, I'm afraid. You see, you don't know for sure that he hit your ball and yours could have been lost in the rough.

Imagine the carry-on on a Sunday morning comp if you could declare that your lost ball was played by someone else and you got free relief.

Yep, I get your point. It would open things up to serious abuse.

I know the f£eck£r hit my ball in this instance though :mad:

Just to clarify. If I had made the effort to run after him and he was in fact continuing to play my ball could I have made him return the ball to where he had incorrectly hit it from and I could then have played my second shot without penalty etc?

Russman

Unfortunately Op, its just tough luck.
Unless you're certain or virtually certain (effectively the same thing really) that the guy played your ball, then there's nothing you can do. In this case I'd say that would amount to you seeing your ball land and then seeing the guy playing it. Once there's the element of the ball being out of sight - "over the hill" and "in the 2nd cut" there's no way you can be sure.
I agree the chances are he did, but that's not enough.

Russman

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

If I had made the effort to run after him and he was in fact continuing to play my ball could I have made him return the ball to where he had incorrectly hit it from and I could then have played my second shot without penalty etc?

Yes. In fact, I think (open to correction) that even had he been thick about it and not gone back, you could have dropped a ball in the estimated position, once you established he had played your ball.

backspin.

Its happens to me too many times. Now i put 3 unique symbols in green pen on my balls. Nobody is going to mistake it for their own ball.

fred funk }{

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Yep, I get your point. It would open things up to serious abuse.

I know the f£eck£r hit my ball in this instance though :mad:

Just to clarify. If I had made the effort to run after him and he was in fact continuing to play my ball could I have made him return the ball to where he had incorrectly hit it from and I could then have played my second shot without penalty etc?

If you're certain that he hit your ball then you drop a ball as close as possible to where he played it from and continue on without penalty. You must be certain, not nearly certain.

Seve OB

fred funk }{ wrote: »

If you're certain that he hit your ball then you drop a ball as close as possible to where he played it from and continue on without penalty. You must be certain, not nearly certain.

and the fact that it was a blind shot where the ball landed, unfortunately the OP cannot be certain

IMO, should of chased after the dude or called out. I've done it, if you see him hitting what you think is your ball, just shoult Fore to get his attention, then make them double check

AnneFrank

Seve OB wrote: »

and the fact that it was a blind shot where the ball landed, unfortunately the OP cannot be certain

IMO, should of chased after the dude or called out. I've done it, if you see him hitting what you think is your ball, just shoult Fore to get his attention, then make them double check

yes, you'd have to show it to your playing partners to prove it was your ball too,
i mark all my balls so my playing partners know them straight away,
unlucky, but i wouldn't still be upset about it !

spacecoyote

On the flipside, I played a round a few weeks ago with a very unpleasant individual.

He had pushed his drive & I saw it land beyond the tree line on the edge of the fairway running parallel.

I was headed towards the opposite side of the fairway. As we were walking down towards our balls I spotted that there was a player heading towards a ball down close to where his ball had landed. I said to him that he should give him a shout when he got closer in case he played the wrong ball, to which he answered "No, I'll just leave him to play it"

He got to about 15-20 yards from the guy & he was taking practice swings, so would have had time to ask him without affecting his swing. But he sat silently & waited, let the guy hit the ball, then walked up & said "I think you just hit my ball". They had a quick look around & found the other players ball about 5-6 yards away, same brand & same number, but with different markings.

So the guy had to take a penalty for playing the wrong ball & move on.

I know that its ultimately his own fault for not properly checking his ball before hitting, but the player I was playing with could have easily stopped him & not cost anyone any time or penalties. I know I could have roared from the opposite side myself, and probably should have.

Left a very sour taste in my mouth.

Spotted the guy in the clubhouse after & let him know what had happened & he was disgusted, as he'd been playing well to that point and lost his head a bit after it happened.

54and56

Well in my case I was playing a ball I had found and kept (it was a mint condition Pro V1 which I don't normally play) with a distinct company logo to which I had added my own personal makings in red on two locations on the ball so no matter how it lies I can always identify it.*

* see below for why I know do that!!

I later thought the guy ahead, who I didn't recognise as a member and it was an open comp, was probably a casual enough player who may not have known what ball he was playing if he'd lost a couple on the way round. He looked like a high handicapper who didn't play a lot of golf but that might just be my own bias to make sense of what happened.

Also, on a side note. I played a few weeks ago in another single Stableford and was going well but pushed a fairway wood on a par 5 to the right hand side of the green and about 30 yards short of the next hole tee box into some rough. I shouted "fore" so the guys on the tee box were aware of the incoming ball and all was good as I had a good line on the ball. As I approached the area where my ball landed one of the lads who had tee'd off the next hole and was starting to walk down his fairway detoured over to where I was aiming for and pointed to a spot which he indicated was where my ball landed. Happy days thought I to myself as the rough was quite high and thick. When I got there I saw the ball. It wasn't a nice lie as the ball was sitting well down in the grass but I could see it was a Srixon AD333 #2 so I took my shot which landed on the green about 20 ft from the hole. I was thinking to myself that it wasn't a bad result given the poor fairway wood until I bent down to mark and lift the ball only to see a big horrible corporate logo on the ball and no sign of my own markings on it. Instead of taking a 20 ft birdie putt I was out of the hole. I went back to the rough to look for my own ball but couldn't find it.

Imagine the chance of a fellow golfer trying to do a good turn by pointing out where my ball landed only to be wrong but it turns out there was a ball there anyway and it was the exact same make and # of ball I was playing. Since then I always mark my ball twice so no matter how it lies I can see at least one of the marks to be 100% sure the ball I'm about to play is mine.

This game can be head wrecking at times!!

Another time I tried to be the do gooder by firmly pushing my marker into the green so it wouldn't distract the player whose turn it was to putt and wouldn't impact the line of his putt if on the off chance the ball rolled over my marker. I put my putter over the marker and leaned on it to make sure the marker was as flush with the green as possible then lifted the putter and walked away to allow the other guy to take his putt. When I stopped and looked back there was no sign of my marker. It was stuck to the bottom of my putter and I was out of the hole which was REALLY annoying as it was a par four index one on which I had two shots and I was sitting two on the green with 6ft a birdie putt for potentially 5 points

Why do these things always seem to happen on the rare enough occasion that I am actually going well??

Seve OB

spacecoyote wrote: »

On the flipside, I played a round a few weeks ago with a very unpleasant individual.

He had pushed his drive & I saw it land beyond the tree line on the edge of the fairway running parallel.

I was headed towards the opposite side of the fairway. As we were walking down towards our balls I spotted that there was a player heading towards a ball down close to where his ball had landed. I said to him that he should give him a shout when he got closer in case he played the wrong ball, to which he answered "No, I'll just leave him to play it"

He got to about 15-20 yards from the guy & he was taking practice swings, so would have had time to ask him without affecting his swing. But he sat silently & waited, let the guy hit the ball, then walked up & said "I think you just hit my ball". They had a quick look around & found the other players ball about 5-6 yards away, same brand & same number, but with different markings.

So the guy had to take a penalty for playing the wrong ball & move on.

I know that its ultimately his own fault for not properly checking his ball before hitting, but the player I was playing with could have easily stopped him & not cost anyone any time or penalties. I know I could have roared from the opposite side myself, and probably should have.

Left a very sour taste in my mouth.

Spotted the guy in the clubhouse after & let him know what had happened & he was disgusted, as he'd been playing well to that point and lost his head a bit after it happened.

Not a nice person

Seve OB

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Another time I tried to be the do gooder by firmly pushing my marker into the green so it wouldn't distract the player whose turn it was to putt and wouldn't impact the line of his putt if on the off chance the ball rolled over my marker. I put my putter over the marker and leaned on it to make sure the marker was as flush with the green as possible then lifted the putter and walked away to allow the other guy to take his putt. When I stopped and looked back there was no sign of my marker. It was stuck to the bottom of my putter and I was out of the hole which was REALLY annoying as it was a par four index one on which I had two shots and I was sitting two on the green with 6ft a birdie putt for potentially 5 points

Why do these things always seem to happen on the rare enough occasion that I am actually going well??

Pretty sure if the marker comes away accidentally like that you are allowed to replace it

54and56

Seve OB wrote: »

Pretty sure if the marker comes away accidentally like that you are allowed to replace it

Well I (probably wrongly) took the view that if I couldn't replace the marker with 100% certainty to where it was before it stuck to the bottom of my putter I should just suck it up.

Perhaps I should have replaced the marker to where I estimated it had been and gotten confirmation from my playing partners that they were happy with my placement.

I must look it up to see if there's a rule relating to this although I don't expect it to happen again. I had been using a marker with a rubber/plastic type logo on it which adhered to the bottom of the putter. I now use a plain metal marker and I won't be using my putter in future to press the marker down, I'll just use my fingers to apply some pressure on it.

Seve OB

http://www.randa.org/News/2016/12/New-Local-Rule-for-Golf

i pretty much always use a proper ball marker with a little spike on it, so it helps preventing it from moving and if it does accidentally, you can quite often see where it had been due to the spike hole

ive often had them stick to my thumb if i press down hard
anyway, above is like to artice regarding the rule for you

Russman

Also covered by Decision 20-1/6

Q.
A player marked the position of his ball with a coin, lifted the ball and pressed down the coin with the sole of his putter. He walked to the edge of the green and then noticed that the coin had stuck to the sole of the putter. What is the ruling?

A.
In this case, the movement of the ball-marker was directly attributable to the specific act of marking the position of the ball.
Accordingly, no penalty is incurred and the ball or the ball-marker must be replaced. If the spot where the ball or the ball-marker lay is not known, it must be placed as near as possible to where it lay but not nearer the hole (Rule 20-3c).

fullstop

Most of the idiots who do this will flat out deny they played your ball when challenged anyway so it's mostly a waste of time chasing after them.

54and56

Russman wrote: »

Also covered by Decision 20-1/6

Q.
A player marked the position of his ball with a coin, lifted the ball and pressed down the coin with the sole of his putter. He walked to the edge of the green and then noticed that the coin had stuck to the sole of the putter. What is the ruling?

A.
In this case, the movement of the ball-marker was directly attributable to the specific act of marking the position of the ball.
Accordingly, no penalty is incurred and the ball or the ball-marker must be replaced. If the spot where the ball or the ball-marker lay is not known, it must be placed as near as possible to where it lay but not nearer the hole (Rule 20-3c).

I'm so embarrassed and sad

Thanks for clarifying.

I think during the long winter evenings ahead I need to develop a more detailed understanding of the rules!!

Russman

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

I think during the long winter evenings ahead I need to develop a more detailed understanding of the rules!!

I wouldn't bother, they're all changing when the new rules come into effect in Jan 2019 anyway. It'll be fun and games then !:D

Although, I think I remember seeing something, fairly recently, can't remember if it was an online post, magazine article or what it was, but if I remember correctly it was encouraging clubs and golfers to experiment or try out playing under the new rules early. Honestly I can't remember where I read it, or even when it was suggested that we try the new rules out but it caught my eye.

Seve OB

Russman wrote: »

I wouldn't bother, they're all changing when the new rules come into effect in Jan 2019 anyway. It'll be fun and games then !:D

Although, I think I remember seeing something, fairly recently, can't remember if it was an online post, magazine article or what it was, but if I remember correctly it was encouraging clubs and golfers to experiment or try out playing under the new rules early. Honestly I can't remember where I read it, or even when it was suggested that we try the new rules out but it caught my eye.

well there "new rules" are only proposed.

the fundamental rules as they currently are will remain unchanged so there is no reason for anyone to not study up on what there now

the new rules are proposals to make them easier to understand along with some proposed changes

big_drive

Happened me once and started using the yellow Srixons. Never happened since as chances of someone else using a yellow ball is slim

Seve OB

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

I think during the long winter evenings ahead I need to develop a more detailed understanding of the rules!!

bit of fun for you

http://www.randa.org/RulesEquipment/Rules/Quiz

also, download the app, can play the quiz on that
it is a good way to learn them

londonred

backspin. wrote: »

Its happens to me too many times. Now i put 3 unique symbols in green pen on my balls. Nobody is going to mistake it for their own ball.

Only problem is that if you are in the rough and playing a Titleist 1 with no markings their is a good chance you will find one however using the markings narrows it down a bit:)

downwesht

Use a well marked or different coloured ball for this hole in future.It may affect your drive if you let this event get to you.Golf is a mental game after all!

54and56

Seve OB wrote: »

bit of fun for you

http://www.randa.org/RulesEquipment/Rules/Quiz

also, download the app, can play the quiz on that
it is a good way to learn them

Thanks, will do.

This is also a great resource and from one of our own so to speak - http://www.rhodesrulesschool.com

Russman

Seve OB wrote: »

well there "new rules" are only proposed.

the fundamental rules as they currently are will remain unchanged so there is no reason for anyone to not study up on what there now

the new rules are proposals to make them easier to understand along with some proposed changes

Of course, I didn't really mean someone shouldn't learn the rules, just to be aware that the rule book is changing drastically in 2019, particularly in the area of dropping/replacing etc.
I'd imagine most, if not all of the proposals will get through, possibly not something like not having to inform when marking and picking up your ball to identify it. That one seems a bit "out there" for me !!

Wichita Lineman

^ Don't take this as a criticism but it's hardly 'out there' or time delaying to let your playing partners know why you are touching your ball. Particularly if it's in the rough where it's usually harder to identify.

Russman

Wichita Lineman wrote: »

^ Don't take this as a criticism but it's hardly 'out there' or time delaying to let your playing partners know why you are touching your ball. Particularly if it's in the rough where it's usually harder to identify.

I think you may have taken me up wrong, I think it's "out there" to propose that players don't have to announce they're identifying their ball.

Wichita Lineman

Ah! I see that now. ^

Ronney

londonred wrote: »

Only problem is that if you are in the rough and playing a Titleist 1 with no markings their is a good chance you will find one however using the markings narrows it down a bit:)

Have a Hacker friend who always stocks up on pro shop logo balls, be surprised how easy it is for him to "find" them in the long grass!

Wichita Lineman

Yesterday I was a bit wayward with a tee shot and it went over towards another fairway where a fourball were coming in the opposite direction. When the rest of my group hit I headed over to look for my ball and chatted briefly to the lads on my way by saying I was 'checking out this fairway in advance' type of thing and had anyone seen my ball, to which they replied no. They continued on up their fairway and I started searching in the light rough in between the 2 holes. I wasn't having any joy but a minute or two later I heard a shout from behind and a member of the other fourball started jogging back down to me. Turns out he had played my ball in error - even though it was a different brand and quite distinctively marked! He only realised when he went to play his next shot. He was able to show where he had played it from and I was able to continue the hole. I've just checked Master Scoreboard this morning and unfortunately for him he never found his actual ball as he ended up with an NR from that hole on.

Pays to check your ball!

jtown

So playing stableford competition Sunday- signed card and submitted on the computer but gross score on a hole was 1 shot lower (phones after seeing card online) - player is D/Qd but should the player still get cut ? Beat CSS by 4 shots.

Seve OB

jtown wrote: »

So playing stableford competition Sunday- signed card and submitted on the computer but gross score on a hole was 1 shot lower (phones after seeing card online) - player is D/Qd but should the player still get cut ? Beat CSS by 4 shots.

I'm pretty sure if you make a mistake and get Disq, yes you do still get cut.

I was also of the understanding that if your card is correct, but you enter wrong scores on the computer, you would still be ok as it goes by the card

jtown

Seve OB wrote: »

I'm pretty sure if you make a mistake and get Disq, yes you do still get cut.

I was also of the understanding that if your card is correct, but you enter wrong scores on the computer, you would still be ok as it goes by the card

Card was wrong also...

Wichita Lineman

Cut applies DQ or not.

jtown

Think I found it

http://scottishgolf.org/wp-content/uploads/Handicap-Adjustments-for-Disqualified-Scores.pdf

backspin.

This may be a good place to ask a question about hitting someone else's club in a competition. I have seen a few times down the years where someone got a new driver and one of the other players in the group asks can i hit that on the next tee. What is the ruling on that.

Some have said that provided the player hitting it has 13 or less clubs in the bag its ok. If they have 14 clubs in the bag and hit someone else's club then that puts them at 15 clubs?

Miley Byrne

backspin. wrote: »

This may be a good place to ask a question about hitting someone else's club in a competition. I have seen a few times down the years where someone got a new driver and one of the other players in the group asks can i hit that on the next tee. What is the ruling on that.

Some have said that provided the player hitting it has 13 or less clubs in the bag its ok. If they have 14 clubs in the bag and hit someone else's club then that puts them at 15 clubs?

No, against the rules to use another player's equipment.

(Don't start on borrowing tees, balls, ball markers )

Ronney

Miley Byrne wrote: »

No, against the rules to use another player's equipment.

(Don't start on borrowing tees, balls, ball markers )

Randomly Partners are allowed Share clubs provided their combined number does not exceed 14.

The actual rule stating 14 clubs is an interesting one in way its worded. If you start with less than 14 you may add clubs as long as it does not cause delay.

Technically you could start with 1 club and add as needed, most people carry say irons 4/5-P but I could guess there are plenty of rounds where say a 6 or 8 aren't used. This would give more variation to add wedges or rescues as needed.

Completely against the Spirit of the game though


http://www.randa.org/Rules-of-Golf/MainRules/4-Clubs/SubRules/4-Maximum-of-Fourteen-Clubs

Rule 4-4

a. Selection and Addition of Clubs

The player must not start a stipulated round
with more than fourteen clubs. He is limited to the clubs thus selected for that round, except that if he started with fewer than fourteen clubs, he may add any number, provided his total number does not exceed fourteen.

The addition of a club or clubs must not unduly delay play (Rule 6-7) and the player must not add or borrow any club selected for play by any other person playing on the course
or by assembling components carried by or for the player during the stipulated round
.

b. Partners May Share Clubs

Partners
may share clubs, provided that the total number of clubs carried by the partners
so sharing does not exceed fourteen.

Seve OB

Miley Byrne wrote: »

No, against the rules to use another player's equipment.

(Don't start on borrowing tees, balls, ball markers )

ok so, i'll start

what's wrong with borrowing tees, balls & ball markers?

Senna

Seve OB wrote: »

ok so, i'll start

what's wrong with borrowing tees, balls & ball markers?

I'm guessing the guy standing on the tee going "anyone got a spare tee?". Same guy normally hasnt a second ball to hit when his first is 100yards OB and his back is 100yards down the fairway, or same guy starts searching every pocket while on the green trying to mark his ball.

I'm sure no one here is THAT guy

Seve OB

Senna wrote: »

I'm guessing the guy standing on the tee going "anyone got a spare tee?". Same guy normally hasnt a second ball to hit when his first is 100yards OB and his back is 100yards down the fairway, or same guy starts searching every pocket while on the green trying to mark his ball.

I'm sure no one here is THAT guy

Not what I meant. Miley seemed to insinuate that it is against the rules to borrow these items.

fullstop

Seve OB wrote: »

Not what I meant. Miley seemed to insinuate that it is against the rules to borrow these items.

Did you miss the at the end of his post?

Miley Byrne

Seve OB wrote: »

ok so, i'll start

what's wrong with borrowing tees, balls & ball markers?

Absolutely nothing

tritriagain

Recently played a game where I was asked to move my ball to the side for putting before I had marked my ball. I then lined my putter with ball and marked behind putter and lifted. I was told I should have marked ball first then marked behind putter off first marker. Is this correct or is my way acceptable.

martinkop

tritriagain wrote: »

Recently played a game where I was asked to move my ball to the side for putting before I had marked my ball. I then lined my putter with ball and marked behind putter and lifted. I was told I should have marked ball first then marked behind putter off first marker. Is this correct or is my way acceptable.

Decision 20-1/16 quotes "When moving a ball or ball-marker to the side to prevent it from interfering with another player’s stance or stroke, the player may measure from the side of the ball or ball-marker"

Seems like what you did is ok. Have a look for yourselve

http://www.randa.org/Rules-of-Golf/MainRules/20-Lifting-Dropping-and-Placing-Playing-from-Wrong-Place/SubRules/1-Lifting-and-Marking#alldecisions

spacecoyote

martinkop wrote: »

Decision 20-1/16 quotes "When moving a ball or ball-marker to the side to prevent it from interfering with another player’s stance or stroke, the player may measure from the side of the ball or ball-marker"

Seems like what you did is ok. Have a look for yourselve

http://www.randa.org/Rules-of-Golf/MainRules/20-Lifting-Dropping-and-Placing-Playing-from-Wrong-Place/SubRules/1-Lifting-and-Marking#alldecisions

Yeah my understanding is that its fine, as long as you make sure that you replace the ball in an identical manner.

Grange Castle had it happen to them in a Pierce Purcell qualifier a couple of years ago as far as I know where a player moved the ball originally from the ball, but replaced it using a marker, so they hadn't moved the ball back correctly & were penalised.

Seve OB

know a lad who used to move his ball by lying the putter on the ground and moving his ball from one end to the other :eek: