Media: Cairn Homes announce plans for 8,000 new homes at Adamstown

The_Conductor

From today's Irish Times

In brief-

South Dublin Co. Council plan to publish irrevocable planning permission for Clonburris (which is the land bordering Adamstown, immediately to its East)- at its September meeting.

Cairn Homes- the owner of just under a quarter of the site- plan to seek immediate permission to build 500 homes there in 2018- from a total of 8,000- which they imagine they will deliver in a drip-fed fashion over the next 16-20 years.

South Dublin Co. Co. own 35% of the site- which is to be earmarked for a public space for the new development

3 other landowners (not identified) own the remaining 40% of the site.

Total planned delivery = 8,000 units by Cairn- and if the SDZ goes fully live- up to 32,000 additional high density units.

Councillors have to approve the SDZ- before it goes live (at the September meeting).

Total size of the development- stated in article @ 280 Hectares- as much as 310 hectares, depending on the measurement protocol used (i.e. larger than the current Adamstown development). The planned population for the area- would be larger than Wexford town.

Massive issue already highlighted by local councillors- is when this was first mooted- it was predicated on the extension of Metro West to the site- before any construction would go ahead. Obviously, this didn't happen. The whole area is already a no-go area traffic wise at peak times- and unless something imaginative is done possibly with a new local terminus for the train station at Adamstown- this is going to be a disaster from a commuting perspective for the whole area. This factor alone, may sink the project at the September meeting of South Dublin Co. Co.

If councillors approve the SDZ at their September meeting- it is a fait accompli- i.e. it cannot be appealed to An Bord Pleanála etc- it *is* going ahead.

The sweetener for Lucan and Adamstown- is the prospect of a large new 74ha park with amenities for the communal enjoyment of all residents of the area- however, thus far, there has been no real solutions put forward to try and mitigate the anticipated traffic mayhem the proposed scheme is anticapted to release- on an area already groaning under the weight of the traffic it has to deal with. The coming week or two, as schools get back to their usual schedules, will only serve to highlight just how chronic transport in the area already is. A private company has been contracted to undertake additional traffic monitoring activities at designated pressure points over the next 4 weeks.

Interesting times ahead for Adamstown/Leixlip/Newcastle/Clondalkin area.

handlemaster

Did they finish what was already planned. I though this site was àt à standstill

The_Conductor

handlemaster wrote: »

Did they finish what was already planned. I though this site was àt à standstill

Its not at a standstill- its ongoing (and at a breakneck pace).

Its a nice little number for Cairn- dripfeed 500 units a year onto the market in the area for the next 16 years- and as issues arise (predominantly traffic)- its all at SDCCs door.........

The Clonburris aspect of this- i.e. the whole section going over towards Clondalkin etc- to the East- was put on ice when the downturn came- it had been cleared previously- but with a stipulation that it was to come on stream after the Metro West Link went live. Obviously- this came to nought- and the money simply isn't there anymore.

Its not a foregone conclusion that this will be voted through- any of the councillors who grew up in the area- have severe misgivings- and after some weird votes earlier this year- will be actively lobbying their colleagues and trying to educate them about the area- as some of the councillors are remarkably ignorant about the specific issues and needs of the local communities (look at the St. Catherine's vote for example- and that hasn't even been overturned yet!)

moleyv

It hasn't even been released as a draft yet. Not possible to go through so fast

moleyv

And the making of an SDZ Planning Scheme can be appealed to ABP.

It's once it's in effect, no individual decisions on applications can be appealed.

In addition, the develop has the choice to go to ABP for Strategic Housing Developments, if for some reason they want ABP to make the decision over the Planning Authority.

Macha

The article says they'll be building predominantly 'family houses'.

hmmm

Local politicians are already gearing up to oppose this because of the impact on the road network. They're not wrong, but we can't both say we have to fix the housing crisis, while at the same time opposing new developments - instead these politicians should be pushing for transport options to address the issues e.g. more trains, Lucan LUAS, Dart underground.

Because the developers are claiming the demand is for low density "family homes", the solutions to housing seem obvious - build family homes on the outskirts and let people commute if they want, build up in the city centre with apartments for younger professionals.

Macha

hmmm wrote: »

Because the developers are claiming the demand is for low density "family homes", the solutions to housing seem obvious - build family homes on the outskirts and let people commute if they want, build up in the city centre with apartments for younger professionals.

This is exactly the argument put forward by Conor Skehan, Chairman of the Housing Agency - ie the market only builds what the market demands.

I think it's wrong to push families to the outskirts and into long commutes, especially when the pressures of childcare/school commutes are added. We need to build family-friendly apartments also closer to the city centre.

I'm pretty disappointed about this announcement. OK, The Conductor says that the whole plan includes SDZ high-density units but they're clearly an afterthought and may never get built.

wordofwarning

Macha wrote: »

I think it's wrong to push families to the outskirts and into long commutes, especially when the pressures of childcare/school commutes are added. We need to build family-friendly apartments also closer to the city centre.

It is only a long commute when the infastructure is not there. In the likes of Munich, you can live 40km from the city and be in the middle of the city within 30-40 mins on a S-Bahn. It is the same for Berlin etc.

The problem is we have been feed a lie for the last hundred years. That you can only be happy in a house. That a tiny house with a tiny garden hours from the city is better than a large apartment in the middle of the city. The Government is doing nothing to make it more attractive for families to live in the City.

Even if you built gorgeous, massive family friendly apartments in the middle of Dublin City. I honestly can't see the middle classes moving into them unless they can afford to send their children to fee paying schools, as inner city schools have such a bad rep.

It is very hard to supply decent housing with good infrastructure in Dublin when politicans won't fund Dublin to ensure its infrastructure is on par with a city of its size. Dublin needs tens of billions throw at it to bring it in 2017 to facilitate its growth ie we need better inner city schools, new water services etc.

Building homes and infrastructure being an afterthought needs to end

hmmm

Macha wrote: »

I think it's wrong to push families to the outskirts and into long commutes, especially when the pressures of childcare/school commutes are added. We need to build family-friendly apartments also closer to the city centre.

Don't disagree with you - anyone living in this location are going to be commuting for at least an hour each way to get into the city. Many are going to require cars to get to their destination.

The_Conductor

Macha wrote: »

The article says they'll be building predominantly 'family houses'.

The Cairn leg of this proposal is 'predominantly family homes'.
The Cairn leg- only covers a quarter of the site.
There are 3 other developers- and there is also SDCC itself- Cairn have spelt out their intentions- the others, have not.

The_Conductor

hmmm wrote: »

Don't disagree with you - anyone living in this location are going to be commuting for at least an hour each way to get into the city. Many are going to require cars to get to their destination.

An hour?
They should be so lucky!
Honestly- I challenge anyone on this forum- to start at Superquinn at anytime between 07.30 and 09.30 this day week- and see how long it takes them to get into the city centre.

Anyone on public transport- might be ok- providing they get the bus at the terminus- however, even public transport is pretty swamped at this stage- never mind the private transport network..........

Lumen

The_Conductor wrote: »

An hour?
They should be so lucky!
Honestly- I challenge anyone on this forum- to start at Superquinn at anytime between 07.30 and 09.30 this day week- and see how long it takes them to get into the city centre.

Anyone on public transport- might be ok- providing they get the bus at the terminus- however, even public transport is pretty swamped at this stage- never mind the private transport network..........

It's prob 40 min each way by bicycle for someone who does it daily.

The_Conductor

Lumen wrote: »

It's prob 40 min each way by bicycle for someone who does it daily.

Honestly- I wish I were fit enough to do it- it sounds like the best possible option for someone (providing it suited).

LirW

I doubt this will start anytime soon, because planning usually takes a million years. Before there's any building about to start it'd be interesting to hear some proposals for the traffic management. This already busy part of town will seriously struggle taking on thousands of people and there needs to be acting on that as soon as possible.

And last but not least: Jesus f christ, why not finally building at least 4 or 5 storeys with high quality apartments that have around 100 - 150 sqm that comfortably houses families of 4 or 5 with nice balconies? The last thing the west of Dublin needs is more hectars of copy and paste 3bed semis.

jimmycrackcorm

The_Conductor wrote:

An hour? They should be so lucky! Honestly- I challenge anyone on this forum- to start at Superquinn at anytime between 07.30 and 09.30 this day week- and see how long it takes them to get into the city centre.

I'm five minutes from Superquinn and it takes me 40 minutes to cycle to the city centre.

Nermal

Where's Luas line F when you need it?

LirW

LirW wrote: »

And last but not least: Jesus f christ, why not finally building at least 4 or 5 storeys with high quality apartments that have around 100 - 150 sqm that comfortably houses families of 4 or 5 with nice balconies? The last thing the west of Dublin needs is more hectars of copy and paste 3bed semis.

Because people don't want them, people want houses so if a builder wants to sell they build what people want.

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I'm five minutes from Superquinn and it takes me 40 minutes to cycle to the city centre.

Cycling is not really an option for the vast majority for a load of reasons though.

Pixel Eater

As usual the private developers are calling for 'family homes', ie. 3 bed-semis in sprawling estates: what they think is most profitable and more sellable. While we need developers to build, they should be kept and a tight leash. We have the opportunity here to build a well planned, sustainable community; I hope that it's not scuppered by caving into the developers' self centred demands.

marno21

Nermal wrote: »

Where's Luas line F when you need it?

I'd more be asking why more isn't made of the heavy rail line that runs through the area that dumps you at Houston and requires a trip on a jam packed tram to get to the city centre.

LirW

Because people don't want them, people want houses so if a builder wants to sell they build what people want.

With all respect but this can't be applied on Dublin because it's simply not sustainable. Dublin is the economical capital of a country, people in all capitals in Europe live in multi storeys and sucessfully do so. This way of thinking in a capital is just not sustainable in times of a massive under supply.
But I'm not going into an argument with you there, I think every regular poster knows your point of view on housing and how to live.

The_Conductor

Probably the first (and possibly the only time) I'll defend the developer.
The Developer will built- what they are allowed to build- to the maximum profit potential.

If we want nice 1,200 square foot apartments- we *need* to tell our councillors that this is what we, as members of the public, will support.

The last thing on earth we need- is more sprawl- we need high density, well spec'ed, good sized units- we need to consign the former Minister (Kelly's) race to the bottom- where shoeboxes were formalised- and instead spec properties properly. At the moment- this quite simply is not happening.

This is probably a once in a lifetime opportunity for the area- to showcase how things can be done better- however, I suspect, its going to be yet another squandered opportunity.

awec

I think the risks are still way too big for families to seriously consider buying apartments in Ireland.

Colonel Claptrap

The_Conductor wrote: »

An hour?
They should be so lucky!
Honestly- I challenge anyone on this forum- to start at Superquinn at anytime between 07.30 and 09.30 this day week- and see how long it takes them to get into the city centre.

Anyone on public transport- might be ok- providing they get the bus at the terminus- however, even public transport is pretty swamped at this stage- never mind the private transport network..........

The author of the article was on the Pat Kenny show this morning. She pointed out that most people living in the area work in Citywest, Tallaght etc for this very reason. It's easier to drive 20 minutes down the road to Tallaght than tackle a city centre commute.

LirW

Beside this not going to happen that people would openly support that because every Dick, Tom and Harry is running riot over 2 storey buildings because it could knock like 5 Euro off the value of their houses.

MrMorooka

Pixel Eater wrote: »

As usual the private developers are calling for 'family homes', ie. 3 bed-semis in sprawling estates: what they think is most profitable and more sellable. While we need developers to build, they should be kept and a tight leash. We have the opportunity here to build a well planned, sustainable community; I hope that it's not scuppered by caving into the developers' self centred demands.

As another example, I noticed the developers of the big project at Charlemont St in the city centre backpedalled a bit and are looking to remove amenities like a cinema and courtyards and adding more (profitable) office space : https://www.cisireland.com/projectdescription.aspx?id=1330

quadrifoglio verde

The_Conductor wrote: »

An hour?
They should be so lucky!
Honestly- I challenge anyone on this forum- to start at Superquinn at anytime between 07.30 and 09.30 this day week- and see how long it takes them to get into the city centre.

Anyone on public transport- might be ok- providing they get the bus at the terminus- however, even public transport is pretty swamped at this stage- never mind the private transport network..........

7.42 train from adamstown would have you at Connolly for 8.13
Anyone working in the city who chooses driving over that quick commute needs their head examined

Pixel Eater

LirW wrote: »

With all respect but this can't be applied on Dublin because it's simply not sustainable. Dublin is the economical capital of a country, people in all capitals in Europe live in multi storeys and sucessfully do so. This way of thinking in a capital is just not sustainable in times of a massive under supply.
But I'm not going into an argument with you there, I think every regular poster knows your point of view on housing and how to live.

Total agree. This idea that people only want to live in houses is a bit of a fallacy: the main reason is that there is very few apartments designed specifically for families in mind. Build large, modern apartments close to child centred amenities and I've no doubt you'd have no trouble finding tenants/buyers.

LirW

awec wrote: »

I think the risks are still way too big for families to seriously consider buying apartments in Ireland.

What risks? That more fire traps would be build? It's not celtic tiger, this won't happen again and if so, the builder is planning a nasty suicide of his reputation.
People everywhere else buy and live in apartments, what's so different in Ireland to do so in new developed, well sized and shaped ones? I'm not talking about the 40 sqm 2 bedroom shoeboxes here.

Colonel Claptrap

Pixel Eater wrote: »

As usual the private developers are calling for 'family homes', ie. 3 bed-semis in sprawling estates: what they think is most profitable and more sellable. While we need developers to build, they should be kept and a tight leash.

In fairness to the developer they say they can produce the houses at under 300k. The society of chartered accountants puts the cost of a typical 3 bed semi at more than 330k.

awec

LirW wrote: »

What risks? That more fire traps would be build? It's not celtic tiger, this won't happen again and if so, the builder is planning a nasty suicide of his reputation.
People everywhere else buy and live in apartments, what's so different in Ireland to do so in new developed, well sized and shaped ones? I'm not talking about the 40 sqm 2 bedroom shoeboxes here.

People wouldn't trust developers to do it right. People have lived in apartments that exist today and know they are completely unsuited to family life, it will take a long time to convince people otherwise. It'll take a lot more than a nice brochure produced by a developer.

And of course, the risk that they'll never be able to sell it on if it doesn't work out.

LirW

I certainly don't think so.
Once you have good amenities around, playgrounds, green areas and childcare options you'll most likely find people to do this. Of course you'll always have people who prefer otherwise but it's simply not sustainable in a city that grows like Dublin.
Also people bought cardboard like new builds in the last boom, it bit plenty of them because they lost value and the houses are bad, yet people queue overnight for new builds now. Follows the same logic somehow, doesn't it?
Unfortunately times change and in a crisis like the current one the council has the job making sure that there aren't developments that maximise profits but work for the city in the long run. Not that they are doing it :rolleyes:

Pixel Eater

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

In fairness to the developer they say they can produce the houses at under 300k. The society of chartered accountants puts the cost of a typical 3 bed semi at more than 330k.

Which is most welcome. However they shouldn't be allowed to totally dictate the planning of an area to suit themselves rather than the good of the city overall. A majority of high quality and medium to high density apartments focused on public transport and a limited amount of car dependent houses is the preferable option.

LirW

Who will guarantee though that the houses turn out to be under 300k in the end? Currently the prices of new developments hike up their prices with each phase they launch. There is no point in selling off mid terraces for 280k when a semi D is 320 and the prices go up around 30 - 50 grand with a new phase.
If it can work under the 300k threshold, it would be wonderful.
In that case you could launch apartments even cheaper than that if you put up a healthy mix like 70:30 (apt - houses) for example.

The_Conductor

LirW wrote: »

Who will guarantee though that the houses turn out to be under 300k in the end? Currently the prices of new developments hike up their prices with each phase they launch. There is no point in selling off mid terraces for 280k when a semi D is 320 and the prices go up around 30 - 50 grand with a new phase.
If it can work under the 300k threshold, it would be wonderful.
In that case you could launch apartments even cheaper than that if you put up a healthy mix like 70:30 (apt - houses) for example.

If they were being built for the government- or the local authority- under contract- then a final price could be specified- however, if they are being built privately- that quite simply isn't going to happen.

Cairn have two large developments in the area- most notably Shackleton Park- on the other side of Adamstown- they are a known quantity- we need to be realistic here.

LirW

This is the point: I think it's unwise to already advertise a price on houses where there isn't a single brick laid yet. We don't know how the market will be like in 2019 for example. There's no point in launching the houses in tiny phases for high prices, it is marginal to the supply really when they propose 8000 units but start building let's say 60.
It all just leaves a bitter taste, because these homes are only going to be available to a certain demographic - again.

mloc123

The_Conductor wrote: »

Honestly- I wish I were fit enough to do it- it sounds like the best possible option for someone (providing it suited).

It is a great route to town by bike... IMO. I cycle from Celbridge via Peamont and then along the canal... Takes less than an hour from Celbridge.

Xterminator

LirW wrote: »

This is the point: I think it's unwise to already advertise a price on houses where there isn't a single brick laid yet.

We are back to the days when the units will be purchased off the plan before a brick is laid.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Xterminator wrote: »

We are back to the days when the units will be purchased off the plan before a brick is laid.

Well back there at this stage. There's a development going up for sale in lucan next week. Drove past the site yesterday and there isn't a brick laid. The groundwork has barely started.

quadrifoglio verde

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Well back there at this stage. There's a development going up for sale in lucan next week. Drove past the site yesterday and there isn't a brick laid. The groundwork has barely started.

Much easier to get finance for the development if you've them all sold already.

Nika Bolokov

I wonder know will big chunks of what is now Clondalkin will be renamed back to the old townland name of 'Clonburris' like the bits of 'Lucan' in Balgaddy and Neilstown

LirW

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

Much easier to get finance for the development if you've them all sold already.

Unfortunately this attitude supports the current way to build for profit, not for the future. Because that's like the least efficient way to do it.

Graham

LirW wrote: »

Unfortunately this attitude supports the current way to build for profit, not for the future. Because that's like the least efficient way to do it.

You realise most developers build for profit don't you?

How does the stage a development is sold at effect efficiency?

Marcusm

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

Much easier to get finance for the development if you've them all sold already.

In principle yes, in practice with Irish mortgage approvals being effectively uncommitted, that type of pre sale finance is more illusory.

Gatling

SDCC have also said to be building 1000 homes and a school at Kilcarberry Grange clondalkin too

LirW

Graham wrote: »

You realise most developers build for profit don't you?

How does the stage a development is sold at effect efficiency?

Sorry, reread and I wasn't clear enough: By selling off like this a builder will ofc become max profit but it's not efficient in the bigger picture of city planning. With a massive shortage of housing like we currently have it's crazy to build more traditional housing estates. Dublin will be bitten in the future by this narrow minded city planning that's still done in 2017.

Pixel Eater

Seriously, what do local authories have against densities? They have reduced the original density requirements for Adamstown, Ashtown and now for this Clonburris scheme it's been almost halved: from 15,00 homes to 8,000. There was a spokesperson from the Housing Agency on Pat Kenny this morning suggesting that there should be extra levies put on developers who build low-density housing in areas were higher density would be more appropriate (although he did say that these development should've have been given planning permission in the first place by the local authority). Not a bad idea.

And another thing I'm perplexed by is when Cairn Homes and other such developers say it's only feasible to build houses. How can this be; in the area that it takes to build a semi-detached house, with a front lawn and back garden that houses 4 people you could build a 5 or 6 story apartment that housing 20/30 people. While it would cost more to build and while the individual units may be should for less, overall surely it would be more profitable?!