Eddard Stark vs Jaime Lannister

Are Am Eye

Question for book readers.k

Was this fight depicted the same way in the book?

In the series it appears that Stark had gained a slight advantage at just the point where he was speared in the leg. In other words he would more than likely have won the fight.

Does the book give the same interpretation?

GingerLily

They didn't fight in the books. There is no reason to think Eddard could beat a two handed Jaime, Jaime was an excellent fighter, Eddard was not.

mjsc1970

Can't remember how the books depicted it, but, it looked to me in the series that Ned was under more pressure

Are Am Eye

mjsc1970 wrote: »

Can't remember how the books depicted it, but, it looked to me in the series that Ned was under more pressure

Neither had drawn blood. But after the last exchange Stark smiles and Lannister has a perturbed look on his face. Now the tv director obviously wanted it depicted that way. That Stark was confident of winning at that point. That Lannister who would have believed himself invincible was surprised at the level of competition from this old warrior. Also the intervening spear man felt the same. Jamie's anger at the spear man was that the actions of the guard were an intervention to help him in a situation that he was not in control of.

Just wondering how Martin depicted it.

J. Marston

They don't fight in the book. The scene is similar but Lannister guards outnumber Ned and his two or three guards by a lot and Jaime orders the guards to be killed, but not Ned. Chaos breaks out, Ned's horse panics and Ned falls and breaks his leg.

GRRM has said that Ned is a competent swordsman, nothing more. In a one-on-one, Jaime wins every time.

Tar.Aldarion

Yeah they didn't fight as far as I remember, but seeing as Jaime was the youngest kingsguard ever, so him. Unless Ice broke his sword. It's had to tell how good ned is as he is so humble, but not as good as Jaime.

Are Am Eye

I think the story is poorer for it if Stark if not much of a fighter. Not that the tv series gives that impression.

J. Marston

Wouldn't say so. Jaime and Ned's animosity is centred around honour and judgement, not sword skills.

Are Am Eye

J. Marston wrote: »

Wouldn't say so. Jaime and Ned's animosity is centred around honour and judgement, not sword skills.

You think the Stark who fought along side R Barathian in their rebellion, that his place in the story should be that of an average guy. An average fighter. A no mark.

I think it's a lesser story if that's the case.
I had interpreted it that although he was quiet and understated that he was a man of significant substance behind that. That the emerging greatness of his off spring as a center piece of the story was no mere chance.

I think less of the story now anyway.

rawn

Are Am Eye wrote:

I think less of the story now anyway.

Really?

GingerLily

Are Am Eye wrote: »

You think the Stark who fought along side R Barathian in their rebellion, that his place in the story should be that of an average guy. An average fighter. A no mark.

I think it's a lesser story if that's the case.
I had interpreted it that although he was quiet and understated that he was a man of significant substance behind that. That the emerging greatness of his off spring as a center piece of the story was no mere chance.

I think less of the story now anyway.

I don't know if any evidence that Eddard is skilled one to one but he is obviously great at command and leading an army. His long sword is meant for battle, not one to one combat.

It's a pity you won't read the books but still think less of the story, if you want to to actually understand the characters you need to read the books, the TV shows lacks a lot of important character development.

Cina

I don't think the show has ever done a good job in portraying just how good a fighter Jaime was. He was shown to be evenly matched by Ned (who wasn't great) and practically beaten by Brienne, neither of which were really the case in the books.

Jaime in the books was apparently only below Ser Barristan and Arthur Payne, and on par with pre-fat Robert

Dave_The_Sheep

Cina wrote: »

and practically beaten by Brienne, neither of which were really the case in the books.

In fairness, wasn't that when he was just after losing a hand, and has his hands tied together?

TerrorFirmer

I guess it doesn't need to, though, because I don't think they ever aimed to establish in the show that Jaime was one of the best swordsmen in the Seven Kingdoms. Perhaps I'm wrong but I think that's more an expectation from book readers rather than it being expressly said in the show.

The scene in question just establishes that both are skilled swordsmen - and obviously it's a major source of wounded pride for Jaime who's practically apoplectic when one of his men steps in fearing that the Lannister is on the verge of being overwhelmed.

We do see Ned, Howlin Reed and 2 others take on Arthur Dayne at once at the Tower of Joy and only a honor less stab in the back saves them from certain defeat. I think Ned Stark is renowned for his leadership, honor, courage, rather than being a skilled swordsman.

Jaime, though, is easily my favorite character in the show alongside Cersei, both have developed enormous and complicated character arcs over the past six seasons that have seen polar opposite character shifts.

When I think of pivotal, iconic moments in the show, aside from the obvious contenders like the Red Wedding, Jon Snow's betrayal and Joffrey's wedding et al, Jaime getting his hand sliced off is right up there for me.

Interesting to watch the earlier seasons knowing what we later learn about Jaime - there are some great scenes that give an inkling that he's not quite as bad as his behavior and demeanor has us believe, including one when he talks with Robert about killing the mad king.

That said though, the whole Bran thing never sat right with me and it's not really compatible with his later turnaround and the emergence of the 'real' Jaime - the Kingslayer who murdered a king to save the people of Kings Landing. For all he knew he'd just murdered a child in cold blood and casually makes a joke to Cersei about having shoved a Stark child to his death for her.

But after the last exchange Stark smiles and Lannister has a perturbed look on his face. Now the tv director obviously wanted it depicted that way. That Stark was confident of winning at that point. That Lannister who would have believed himself invincible was surprised at the level of competition from this old warrior. Also the intervening spear man felt the same. Jamie's anger at the spear man was that the actions of the guard were an intervention to help him in a situation that he was not in control of.

That is precisely the essence of the scene. Jaime is not frustrated and disturbed because Ned is necessarily going to best him, but because Ned has already won a victory by simply being able to meet Jaime on equal terms and making him appear weak in front of his men.

He's a victim of his own arrogance.

In fairness, wasn't that when he was just after losing a hand, and has his hands tied together?

He does still have both hands in that scene, but in fairness he's hardly in peak physical condition at that point, so while again it's a moral victory for Brienne I don't think it fully counts as a true defeat for Jaime, though it's an important aspect in the development of both characters.

DeadHand

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

I guess it doesn't need to, though, because I don't think they ever aimed to establish in the show that Jaime was one of the best swordsmen in the Seven Kingdoms

They did though- Jaime tells Brienne that there are maybe three men in the Seven Kingdoms that stand a chance against him.

It wasn't only in his own head, in a scene I remember from way back (season 2, possibly) we see Lannister soldiers debating who the greatest warriors in Westeros are. Jaime is mentioned along with The Mountain and Loras Tyrell. One opines that Loras can't be that good as "he's been stabbing Renly for years and Renly ain't dead."

He confidently challenges Robb Stark to single combat with Robb immediately conceding; "if we did it your way, Kingslayer, you would win."

More recently, Euron is particularly effusive in his praise of Jaime's display at the assault on Pyke.

He invested his entire sense of worth in his personal fighting capabilities- not having much of a head for or interest in politics or even higher level military command. He is outwitted militarily by the inexperienced Robb and Cersei scolds him for "never taking it seriously" in reference to strengthening House Lannister politically.

Even after losing his hand, He refuses Tywin's offer to discharge him from the Kingsguard and reinstall him as heir to Casterly Rock- preferring to be a full time fighter to even a High Lord.

Hence, he tells Brienne shortly after his mutilation; "I was my right hand."

Fighting was the essence of his being and he was easily a top tier warrior. That is partly why his arc is so fascinating, to see a Lion adapt and evolve after its claws have been taken.

In terms of physical courage, I believe he is the bravest non-insane character on the show rivalled only by Jon Snow. He leaps into a Bear Pit unarmed , takes on Dorne with only Bronn for backup and charges headlong at a dragon he just watched devastate an entire army.

All after being maimed.

The man has Casterly Rock sized balls.

degrassinoel

DeadHand wrote: »

They did though- Jaime tells Brienne that there are maybe three men in the Seven Kingdoms that stand a chance against him.

It wasn't only in his own head, in a scene I remember from way back (season 2, possibly) we see Lannister soldiers debating who the greatest warriors in Westeros are. Jaime is mentioned along with The Mountain and Loras Tyrell. One opines that Loras can't be that good as "he's been stabbing Renly for years and Renly ain't dead."

He confidently challenges Robb Stark to single combat with Robb immediately conceding; "if we did it your way, Kingslayer, you would win."

More recently, Euron is particularly effusive in his praise of Jaime's display at the assault on Pyke.

He invested his entire sense of worth in his personal fighting capabilities- not having much of a head for or interest in politics or even higher level military command. He is outwitted militarily by the inexperienced Robb and Cersei scolds him for "never taking it seriously" in reference to strengthening House Lannister politically.

Even after losing his hand, He refuses Tywin's offer to discharge him from the Kingsguard and reinstall him as heir to Casterly Rock- preferring to be a full time fighter to even a High Lord.

Hence, he tells Brienne shortly after his mutilation; "I was my right hand."

Fighting was the essence of his being and he was easily a top tier warrior. That is partly why his arc is so fascinating, to see a Lion adapt and evolve after its claws have been taken.

In terms of physical courage, I believe he is the bravest non-insane character on the show rivalled only by Jon Snow. He leaps into a Bear Pit unarmed , takes on Dorne with only Bronn for backup and charges headlong at a dragon he just watched devastate an entire army.

All after being maimed.

The man has Casterly Rock sized balls.

And he loves his sister.

Lemlin

Where does Jon Snow belong in the ranks of accomplished swordsmen?

J. Marston

Show Jon is probably one of the greatest warriors in Westeros now.

Book Jon hasn't done too much from what I can remember, he's well trained from growing up at Winterfell and better than pretty much everyone at Castle Black. He's only about 16 in the books though.

willmunny1990

Jamie all day everyday if we're going by source material. Ned was competent, that's it.

Jamie gets mentioned alongside the likes of Arthur Dayne and Barristan Selm.

I always thought the 3 people who Jamie suggested would stand a chance were Selmy, Gregor and the hound.

Daledge

willmunny1990 wrote: »

Jamie all day everyday if we're going by source material. Ned was competent, that's it.

Jamie gets mentioned alongside the likes of Arthur Dayne and Barristan Selm.

I always thought the 3 people who Jamie suggested would stand a chance were Selmy, Gregor and the hound.

If were talking just swordfighting I'd agree, but I'd imagine Oberyn Martell would most definitely be a match for anyone on that list. I mean basically beat the mountain.

Syrio Forel couldn't be too far behind, although apparently it was his perception that got him his position as the first sword of Braavos as opposed to his skills with a blade (which can't be faulted either)

Sleepy

Oberyn was fighting with a spear rather than a sword though...

As a swordsman, Jaime would have been considered unparallelled in the 7 kingdoms at the start of the series (Ser Barristan being past his prime and Ser Arthur Dayne being dead). George RR Martin once asserted that Jaime would have been able to best Aragorn from LOTR.

Ned was a skilled swordsman without being exceptional. His elder brother Brandon was regarded as the swordsman of the family. His strengths were military leadership, having been raised to be the second son to his brother who would have been Lord of Winterfell: Ned would have been raised to be Brandon's General.

Mousewar

DeadHand wrote: »

They did though- Jaime tells Brienne that there are maybe three men in the Seven Kingdoms that stand a chance against him.

It wasn't only in his own head, in a scene I remember from way back (season 2, possibly) we see Lannister soldiers debating who the greatest warriors in Westeros are. Jaime is mentioned along with The Mountain and Loras Tyrell. One opines that Loras can't be that good as "he's been stabbing Renly for years and Renly ain't dead."

He confidently challenges Robb Stark to single combat with Robb immediately conceding; "if we did it your way, Kingslayer, you would win."

More recently, Euron is particularly effusive in his praise of Jaime's display at the assault on Pyke.

He invested his entire sense of worth in his personal fighting capabilities- not having much of a head for or interest in politics or even higher level military command. He is outwitted militarily by the inexperienced Robb and Cersei scolds him for "never taking it seriously" in reference to strengthening House Lannister politically.

Even after losing his hand, He refuses Tywin's offer to discharge him from the Kingsguard and reinstall him as heir to Casterly Rock- preferring to be a full time fighter to even a High Lord.

Hence, he tells Brienne shortly after his mutilation; "I was my right hand."

Fighting was the essence of his being and he was easily a top tier warrior. That is partly why his arc is so fascinating, to see a Lion adapt and evolve after its claws have been taken.

In terms of physical courage, I believe he is the bravest non-insane character on the show rivalled only by Jon Snow. He leaps into a Bear Pit unarmed , takes on Dorne with only Bronn for backup and charges headlong at a dragon he just watched devastate an entire army.

All after being maimed.

The man has Casterly Rock sized balls.

Well said. The most interesting character on the show by far. I was watching the clip from season 1 on YouTube recently where he talks with Jon Snow before Jon departs for the wall and it struck me how Jaime was utterly unrecognisable to how he is now, both physically and in terms of his disposition and morality. He looked like Prince Charming in season 1 and he was a shallow, swashbuckling lout living on the currency of his famous family and his legendary sword skills. Now, all of that is gone.
I lamented the loss of his hand, disappointed that we wouldn't get to see his skill in fights throughout the series but now, looking back it was a necessary evil for him to find himself. The man whose conscience drove him to kill the mad king and defend his father and the people of King's Landing was freed the day he lost his hand.
His metamorphosis has been staggeringly but also gradual and believable. It's as good a character transformation as Walter White in Breaking Bad. And credit to Nikolaj Coster-Waldau who I think is the finest actor on the show.

Oranage2

Long time since I've read the books but it's made out that jaime is the best swordsman in westeros, maybe loras tyrell might be able to match him eventually.

On a side not, a character I thought the show gave a horrible portrayal of.