Question re workhouses

Bassfish

I was wondering if anyone could shed any light on something I've noticed. A lot of community hospitals in operation today are on the sites of famine era workhouses, I'm talking about ones in Cork but I assume this is the case elsewhere.
The thing I've noticed is the ones in Mallow, Clonakilty and Bantry are all on high ground overlooking the towns. Is there any particular reason why the workhouses were originally built in these locations? Something to do with air quality or the land being cheaper or keeping them away from the towns' inhabitants?
On a side note, go back one or two generations in West Cork and older people would always follow a mention of the word 'Clonakilty' with 'God help us' as to be going to Clonakilty was to to be going to the workhouse. My father in law told me his mother would say 'I'm going to buy some shoes in Clonakilty God help us'.
Fascinating history down there!

uck51js9zml2yt

Go out and buy the famine plot by tim pat coogan.
Clonakilty was one of the worst effected by the famine.

pedroeibar1

They were built outside towns because the sites were cheaper, more readily available and more appropriate in size for a large cluster of buildings. A semi-rural site was considered healthier and also helped to keep the beggars off the town’s streets.

In England and Wales in 1836 the Poor Law Amendment Act changed how workhouses operated and very soon there were nearly 700. The amount of Irish poor availing of them in England led to an Irish Poor Law Act that became law in 1838, copying the English system. Nobody foresaw the looming crisis of the Famine.

Workhouses are indelibly linked in the Irish psyche with destitution and poverty. Life in the workhouse was meant to be harsh so as not to encourage laziness or people to stay. Inmates had to work, often at menial tasks. During the Famine a tenant had to relinquish his holding to gain access (the ‘Gregory Clause’). The family entered together and was split into males and females, children under 2 remaining with their mothers. In an era when cohesion of the family unit had greater importance, this sundering of normality was extreme.
Over time the workhouse infirmaries, established to cater for the inmates, grew to accept ‘outside’ patients and were the refuge of unmarried mothers and the sick poor. They also performed the role of orphanage. They fulfilled the role of local hospital and later became the ‘County Home’ for the senile and dying. While many became hospitals the link with the workhouse name, destitution and death lingered. The opprobrium is not limited to Clonakilty – the Tipperary version is ‘He died in Clonmel’ from which everyone knew the circumstances of his death.

Coogan’s book is possibly the worst book written on workhouses/the Famine. It is badly researched, factually incorrect on many matters and its rather wild assertions are not backed-up with fact or sources. It never has been reviewed favourably by an academic and any I’ve heard comment on it have done so very negatively. We had a long thread on it here
A better book is ‘The Workhouses of Ireland’ by John O’Connor. Also this workhouse website is very worthwhile.

Full Marx

The atlas of the great Irish famine is very good.

Full Marx

TPCs book is worth reader, it is a modern restatement of what the likes of John Mitchel would have stated at the time, incidentally Mitchels book the last conquest of Ireland (perhaps) is worth reading too for a valuable perspective from an Irish nationalist and protestant.

uck51js9zml2yt

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Coogan’s book is possibly the worst book written on workhouses/the Famine. It is badly researched, factually incorrect on many matters and its rather wild assertions are not backed-up with fact or sources. It never has been reviewed favourably by an academic and any I’ve heard comment on it have done so very negatively. We had a long thread on it here
A better book is ‘The Workhouses of Ireland’ by John O’Connor. Also this workhouse website is very worthwhile.

Maybe I've read the first 40 posts of that thread wrongly but its a mixture of those who've read it and enjoyed it and those who haven't read it and dismissed its contents out of hand.

You're own anti TPC agenda isnt lost is the following posts but if we all agreed on everything it would be a boring world:D

Bassfish

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

While many became hospitals the link with the workhouse name, destitution and death lingered. The opprobrium is not limited to Clonakilty – the Tipperary version is ‘He died in Clonmel’ from which everyone knew the circumstances of his death

Thanks for the response, it would be interesting to look at all of the long term effects of being in a workhouse town had on the 'psyches' of the people of those towns. No doubt there are many more of those phrases and references linked to local workhouses all over the country.
It's a fascinating yet horrifying part of our history to read about.
In historical terms of course it's not that long ago, I'm 33 and vividly remember my grandfather who was born in 1906 and when he was a young boy, any elderly people he knew would been survivors of the famine!

bobbyss

I haven't read any book on workhouses but am intrigued as to what exactly went on there. There was nothing worse than the workhouse or it was shameful to be sent /to go (?) to the workhouse was what I had always read.

How did people end up in workhouses? They weren't prisons so you would not have committed any crime?

Were these families who had no work, no job, no prospects and no home? If you had no means to sustain yourself and your family, why would it have seemed a shame to be in a workhouse? What was the alternatives for a family? Live in a field? What about food and sanitary requirements? Wouldn't that have been more shameful? In a workhouse you would have had a roof over your head and food? What kind of work went on there and how long would a family have been there for?

tabbey

Out of 163 workhouses around Ireland, many survived as hospitals or county homes after the workhouse abolition in 1924 (IFS). Those that remain as general hospitals include Saint James's and Loughlinstown in Dublin. Many more became county homes or old folk homes, for example St Colman's Rathdrum and St Vincent's Athy.

Although the famine era saw the workhouses and auxiliaries crammed with able-bodied paupers, by about 1860 most inmates were the old, the sick and the handicapped. Thus conversion to county home was largely a mere change of name.

Nevertheless, there remained until recent decades, a stigma about these places,at least where alternatives existed. My grandmother would not have entertained the idea of going to Loughlinstown, when Saint Vincent's and Saint Michael's were available. In the 1980s when there were many general hospitals in Dublin, each was on call at night in rotation. The mother of a friend who had a fracture, hearing that St James was on call, chose to wait until the next morning.
Young people today would not believe these attitudes, especially looking at the ultra modern St James and City hospitals.

In Northern Ireland, the same changes took place. Lagan Valley and City Hospital, Belfast are just two former workhouses.

However it should not be forgotten that conditions in workhouse infirmaries were absolutely appalling by our standards, certainly in the first thirty years of the poor law system, and even in the early years of independence.
Incidentally, people who were not destitute, had to pay to avail of these poor conditions. They were usually the only hospitals in many areas.

pedroeibar1

Laylah Hissing Tinder wrote: »

Maybe I've read the first 40 posts of that thread wrongly but its a mixture of those who've read it and enjoyed it and those who haven't read it and dismissed its contents out of hand.

You're own anti TPC agenda isnt lost is the following posts but if we all agreed on everything it would be a boring world:D

Since those posts I have actually dipped into his book but eventually gave up. How any educated writer/professional journalist could be so blinkered by bigotry was putting me in bad humour. I wanted to read history, not propaganda and lightweight stuff, pandering to the begorrah brigade.

I have no personal issues with TPC, my issues are with his writing. I bought and read his ‘Ireland in the Twentieth Century’ and found it wrong and or superficisal in a couple of the areas I know about in detail. My real beef is with his claim that the Famine was genocide. His selective and careless treatment of data (i.e. FACTS) and lack of accurate/reliable sources should not be ignored by any reader of history.

Blindly accepting TPC’s principal claim - that England set out to exterminate the Irish - is a sober commentary on the credulousness and stupidity of his intended (mainly Irish-American) audience. His book should be read, and held up as an example and lesson in journalistic prostitution, sloppy thinking, poor research and deductive fallacy. I know of no other recent history book so riddled with logical and factual errors as that work.

In the interests of fairness, perhaps you could support him by linking to a positive review by an academic who is an authority on the Famine?

pedroeibar1

bobbyss wrote: »

I haven't read any book on workhouses but am intrigued as to what exactly went on there. There was nothing worse than the workhouse or it was shameful to be sent /to go (?) to the workhouse was what I had always read.

How did people end up in workhouses? They weren't prisons so you would not have committed any crime?

To add to Tabbey's respons (just padding it out) -
The workhouse was the alternative to sleeping in a ditch and begging for food, often after an eviction. . You signed yourself in, and could be accepted or rejected. It was not a prison, people were free to leave, but in practice few did. Some came and went, and were known as the ‘ins and outs’. Genealogists regularly encounter people of that category in their research.

bobbyss wrote: »

Were these families who had no work, no job, no prospects and no home?

Yes. But in general, peasant cottiers never had a ‘job’ or prospects because there was no work in rural Ireland. They were lucky to get a periodic few days labour for a bigger farmer or landlord. Nor did they have security of tenure, so they did not bother to build better ‘homes’. They lived in abysmal conditions by today’s standards and ‘home’ was little better a mud hut. For years before the Famine a large number of entire families went begging during the summer months until the next potato crop was ready to be harvested.

bobbyss wrote: »

If you had no means to sustain yourself and your family, why would it have seemed a shame to be in a workhouse? What was the alternatives for a family? Live in a field?

It was a sign that you had failed and the alternative was the ditch/field.

bobbyss wrote: »

What about food and sanitary requirements? Wouldn't that have been more shameful?

No; sanitary conditions in workhouses were usually ‘better’ than those prevailing in a rural cottage. Males / females were separated and Victorian modesty prevailed. There were instances of cohabitation and some pregnancies but usually that led to dismissal of a staff member(s). Food was enough for very basic survival, stirabout, a type of porridge, bread and that was about it

bobbyss wrote: »

What kind of work went on there and how long would a family have been there for?

Work was basic and menial, inmates were expected to work for their keep (Victorian work ethic) and it ranged from sewing, laundry, breaking stones for road-making / mending and grinding corn. Most tried to leave and many did, but the elderly and sick remained as they had no other option.
It has to be remembered that the workhouses predated the Famine – they were shoved into the ‘limelight’ at a time of total social upheaval. By the end of the Famine they were full to overflowing and for want of food some people were committing minor crimes to be sent to jail because they could not get into the workhouse. It cost (round figures) £5 a year to keep an inmate; it cost £3 to buy a ticket to the USA. That is why so many were passage-paid. Most wanted to go, it was an opportunity of a fresh start.

tabbey

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

No; sanitary conditions in workhouses were usually ‘better’ than those prevailing in a rural cottage. Males / females were separated and Victorian modesty prevailed. There were instances of cohabitation and some pregnancies but usually that led to dismissal of a staff member(s). Food was enough for very basic survival, stirabout, a type of porridge, bread and that was about it

Work was basic and menial, inmates were expected to work for their keep (Victorian work ethic) and it ranged from sewing, laundry, breaking stones for road-making / mending and grinding corn.

Sanitation:
The toilets were outdoor privies accessed from the yards during daytime. Like privies in the best houses, these would have to be emptied into a cart for disposal.
At night time inmates were locked into their dormitories. Each long dormitory housing sixty or more, had a night bucket at each end. At times of gastro-intestinal upsets, these buckets overflowed.
As to clean water to wash one's hands after use, forget it. Even when washing each morning, towels were shared by many inmates. I recall reading about one of the auxiliaries during the famine period, Cannot remember where, but it was for boys, something like 320 boys shared 5 towels, it was no wonder that eye infections spread like wildfire.

Food:
The principle behind the workhouses was that no pauper should have a better standard of diet etc than someone working outside. In England, meat was seen as a part of regular diet for the poor, so was provided to paupers in the workhouses. In Ireland people were poorer and the poor generally got very little meat, so meat was considered inappropriate. However some sort of meat in small quantities, was seen as necessary for nutrition. This was boiled with seasonal vegetables as soup for lunchtime and was not the choicest cuts. Poor law union boards of guardian minutes, itemise the quantities of food ordered each week. They specify officers meat and paupers meat. The latter was typically a head plus some shoulder of beef. Sometimes the contractor woud supply two heads instead of one head and shoulder. This was not allowed,the meat was supposed to be all one piece. Of course it is possible that staff may in some cases have allowed improper meat to have been provided, "for a consideration".
The main foodstuff was stirabout,a variant of what we call porridge, made of oatmeal and Indian meal, in roughly equal proportions, but varying according to the prevailing price of each grain. Able bodied inmates also got brown bread, the white bread being generally reserved for very young children and patients in the infirmary. The latter enjoyed the better diet on paper, but were often unable to eat so much. In Waterford about 1857, a guardian stated that infirmary bread was being sold on the streets of the city. The infirmary matron was subsequently dismissed (or called on to resign).
While the poor outside got vitamins from the large quantity of potatoes they consumed, the pauper in the workhouse only got seasonal vegetables in their soup, which may have been so overboiled that any vitamins were destroyed.

To sum up, the diet, and life generally, in the workhouses was far from good, but if you were destitute, it was far better than starving under a tree. If you begged, you could be prosecuted and serve month's of hard labour. Work in the workhouse was hard by the standards of our time, but bore no comparison to that of hard labour in a prison.
Whatever about it's faults, the poor law system was the foundation of our social welfare and public hospital services.

27Auld

I  "found " this tread in my search for my Irish link. My great grandmother was part of Earl Greys Irish orphans to Australia scheme, where between 1848 and 1850 approx 4,000 orphan girls aged 14 to 18 were sent out to boost females in the colony,  be servants, and marry convicts ,the girls came from workhouses. Many  descendants are proud of our Irish link, I am researching my 'orphan' with a view to visiting her workhouse ( if the building remains) or the site, all I have is the ship passenger list for Ellen McCluskey  from  Teagh,  Meath, born Tara Meath 1831, Irish records tend to require date of birth, parish etc.
Any chance of help from Irish end ?
I live in Sydney Australia, can advise/ discuss most current issues, or advise if you are thinking of visiting us.

pedroeibar1

Hi. MOst were built to a much-copied plan, so a visit to any surviving building would give you a good 'flavour' (although I understand a wish to 'tread the ground'). Have a look at this SITEfor some Meath info.