Brakes and the Law

karlitob

Is it a requirement for two brakes to be on a bike in Ireland - thinking of fixes



https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/london-cyclist-guilty-of-causing-harm-to-woman-who-died-after-he-hit-her-1.3195987

Kaisr Sose

An independent brake is required by law on the public road. So on a fixed, that means a front brake too. Can't see why anyone would ride without one but I see it. If the chain snaps, no brakes....

magicbastarder

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1963/si/190/made/en/print

Section 93 seems to be the relevant one. Though it says at least one brake on a bike where one wheel cannot operate independently of the pedals, I'm not quite sure of the implications. The law seems silent on where the brake should be in this case?

Lumen

IMO it is negligent to ride a bike at any significant speed in a busy public space with no front brake, since a rear brake is incapable of stopping a bicycle quickly.

Even a child knows this.

That negligence might provide a basis for a civil action in the event of an injurious incident.

karlitob

magicbastarder wrote: »

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1963/si/190/made/en/print

Section 93 seems to be the relevant one. Though it says at least one brake on a bike where one wheel cannot operate independently of the pedals, I'm not quite sure of the implications. The law seems silent on where the brake should be in this case?

Seems like a bell is a legal requirement also. Makes sense but didn't know.

I take that to read that you only need one brake for a fixie (regardless of whether its a good idea or not) - but it doesn't say front or back? Am I reading it right?

Harrybelafonte

A fixed gear bike already has a rear brake

Eamonnator

Lumen wrote: »

IMO it is negligent to ride a bike at any significant speed in a busy public space with no front brake, since a rear brake is incapable of stopping a bicycle quickly.

Even a child knows this.

That negligence might provide a basis for a civil action in the event of an injurious incident.

I agree.
But from reading the S.I. you could comply with the law by having a fixed wheel and a separate rear brake, stupid I know, but of itself legal. It is then a matter of proving negligence, by the manner of riding.

Chips Lovell

Yeah, technically you could be legal by fitting a rear brake to a fixed gear bike. Why anyone want to do that though....

cdaly_

karlitob wrote: »

I take that to read that you only need one brake for a fixie (regardless of whether its a good idea or not) - but it doesn't say front or back? Am I reading it right?

Correct

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

A fixed gear bike already has a rear brake

No it doesn't. It has a wheel incapable of operating independently of the pedals. Unlike a PennyFarthing however, there is a chain interposed between wheel and pedals and is therefore not recognised in law as a brake.

Lumen

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

A fixed gear bike already has a rear brake

Yes, but the legal requirement is for two braking devices, on a fixie one of those can be the drivetrain.

(2) Every pedal cycle (other than a cycle so constructed that the pedals act directly on any wheel or its axle without the intervention of any gearing, chain or other device) while used in a public place shall be equipped with an efficient braking device, or two efficient braking devices, in accordance with the following provisions, that is to say:—

(a) where at least one wheel of the cycle is incapable of rotating independently of the pedals or where the cycle is designed for use by a child not more than seven years of age, the cycle shall be equipped with one braking device;

(b) in any other case, the cycle shall be equipped with two braking devices and, in the case of a bicycle, one device shall operate on the front wheel and one device shall operate on the rear wheel.

magicbastarder

i like the use of 'where at least one wheel of the cycle is incapable of rotating independently of the pedals'.

i guess this allows it to apply to trikes, but it left me wondering how you'd fix both back *and* front wheel of a bicycle.

Harrybelafonte

You guys can argue the legal requirements and all that, I'll start another thread about banning the term "fixie"

Lumen

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

You guys can argue the legal requirements and all that, I'll start another thread about banning the term "fixie"

Which alternative term is acceptably respectful of your culture? :pac:

tomasrojo

The Dutch Bike Shop in Goatstown add a front brake to the Dutch bikes they import that have coaster brakes. Someone I know who bought an Omafiets-style bike there was told by the shop that it was for legal reasons.

Coaster brakes are regarded as adequate on their own in Denmark and the Netherlands (or so my contacts there have told me), but, as Lumen said, rear brakes don't really do all that much stopping.

Harrybelafonte

Lumen wrote: »

Which alternative term is acceptably respectful of your culture? :pac:

Don't trigger me.

Lumen

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

Don't trigger me.

Yay! I got a smilie!

I'm quitting boards now, my ambition is realised.

triggermortis

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

Don't trigger me.

What's this got to do with me???

karlitob

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

A fixed gear bike already has a rear brake

Do you mean the fixed gear is its own brake?

Harrybelafonte

karlitob wrote: »

Do you mean the fixed gear is its own brake?

Yes, but as pointed out, this may or not be regarded as such legally. Works fine for me and others, the no front brake thing is a lot rarer in Ireland. EVen most going to and from track on their racing bikes woulf still have a front gear attached which they remove for racing.

nak

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

karlitob wrote: »

Do you mean the fixed gear is its own brake?

Yes, but as pointed out, this may or not be regarded as such legally. Works fine for me and others, the no front brake thing is a lot rarer in Ireland. EVen most going to and from track on their racing bikes woulf still have a front gear attached which they remove for racing.

Only if your fork is drilled, mine wasn't - didn't have a car so had to ride to the track.  My front wheel had no braking surface anyway.  Was more worried about riding there on tubs to be honest.  Always took it handy.
There are plenty people riding around Dublin on freewheel bikes that don't have properly functioning brakes.  My bike is one of the few in the bike parking at work that is in good condition.

plodder

karlitob wrote: »

Do you mean the fixed gear is its own brake?

I was initially thinking it was like the old back pedal brake that some bikes used to have. But, it's not like that. It's your legs that are the brakes. The fixed gear and chain are just the transmission. It's a bit like "engine braking" in a car, though I presume you can develop a technique to make it more effective. But I don't see how it could ever be as effective as proper brakes.

Kaisr Sose

nak wrote: »

Only if your fork is drilled, mine wasn't - didn't have a car so had to ride to the track.  My front wheel had no braking surface anyway.  Was more worried about riding there on tubs to be honest.  Always took it handy.
There are plenty people riding around Dublin on freewheel bikes that don't have properly functioning brakes.  My bike is one of the few in the bike parking at work that is in good condition.

But if your bike/s has no independent brake, it's never going to be legal to cycle on public road. The condition or otherwise of a bike is secondary to it being road legal.

magicbastarder

i was on grafton street recently, waiting outside M&S; a chap on a (brakeless) fixie came past, and i got my first good look at the braking method for them = he hooked his foot under the pedal and pulled up hard. bike skidded to a stop. looked very practiced (and if i'm honest, kinda cool), but there's no way that would work as well as a proper set of brakes.

plus, he was cycling down grafton street in the evening at a reasonable clip, too. not good.

ford2600

magicbastarder wrote: »

i was on grafton street recently, waiting outside M&S; a chap on a (brakeless) fixie came past, and i got my first good look at the braking method for them = he hooked his foot under the pedal and pulled up hard. bike skidded to a stop. looked very practiced (and if i'm honest, kinda cool), but there's no way that would work as well as a proper set of brakes.QUOTE]

I can't speak for anyone else but I very rarely skid with fixed gear bike ( I have front and rear brakes but very rarely need to use them).

Observation/anticipation skills are as important as braking technique ime. My experience and skill is pretty limited so I wouldn't feel comfortable without a brake.

I know Olerodrigo did an brake free experiment for a while.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=101459976&postcount=27

loyatemu

a previous case: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2263354/Cyclist-knocked-down-and-killed-teenage-girl-court-hears.html

that guy had brakes but was an arsehole, which seems to have been a contributing factor in this recent case too.

magicbastarder

ford2600 wrote: »

Observation/anticipation skills are as important as braking technique ime. My experience and skill is pretty limited so I wouldn't feel comfortable without a brake.

this is key though - yes, if you cycle without brakes, you will cycle differently and anticipate better. but it's the out of the ordinary situations where you really put your brakes to the test, and not all of those can be anticipated.

tomasrojo

plodder wrote: »

I was initially thinking it was like the old back pedal brake that some bikes used to have.

Yeah, that's the coaster brake mentioned earlier in the thread. The only brake on many bikes in the Netherlands. Not great for braking, and fails completely if the chain snaps, and prone to overheating on long descents(*), but it is officially an actual brake, rather than just effectively being a brake.

(*) Not a frequent problem in the Netherlands.

plodder

tomasrojo wrote: »

Yeah, that's the coaster brake mentioned earlier in the thread. The only brake on many bikes in the Netherlands. Not great for braking, and fails completely if the chain brakes, but it is officially an actual brake, rather than just effectively being a brake.

At least with them you can keep a bit of weight on the back of the bike. So, the don't necessarily skid. Skidding means a much reduced stopping force as compared with a rolling tyre.

tomasrojo

Yeah, they're an ok secondary brake. Good for small kids too, as you don't get the problem of hands being too small to reach a brake lever.

Plenty of people around Europe are happy relying entirely on them, so for those low-speed utility journeys, I'm assuming they're perfectly adequate.

Harrybelafonte

magicbastarder wrote: »

i was on grafton street recently, waiting outside M&S; a chap on a (brakeless) fixie came past, and i got my first good look at the braking method for them = he hooked his foot under the pedal and pulled up hard. bike skidded to a stop. looked very practiced (and if i'm honest, kinda cool), but there's no way that would work as well as a proper set of brakes.

plus, he was cycling down grafton street in the evening at a reasonable clip, too. not good.

Brakeless with no foot retention is a bit silly.

traco

Only a few days ago in the UK - no front brake a factor
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/23/cyclist-convicted-wanton-furious-driving-pedestrians-death/

cython

traco wrote: »

Only a few days ago in the UK - no front brake a factor
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/23/cyclist-convicted-wanton-furious-driving-pedestrians-death/

That's just a different write up of the same incident that prompted the OP.....

CramCycle

Front brake on my track bike has had the same pads since I bought it a few years ago. I think I have used them once. Important to have but if riding with due care and attention, should rarely if ever be used.

Fixie is a horrible term and use usually indicates a rider who cannot ride a track bike with minimum expected observation skills.

I still think the greatest issue is lack of foot retention and those who think Fixed gear and single speed BMX gears are the same. That Muppet going through Ranelagh on a single speed no brakes or foot retention is single handedly taking apart the layman's understanding of Darwinism.

eeeee

I cycle my track bike to and from track several times a week from March till October.
I have a front brake I take off once I get there.
I pretty much only use it when I am already stopped to bring my pedal around to get going again.

There are people I would trust 110% riding fixed and brakeless ten times over the vast majority of the cycling population with brakes I have met, spun and raced with.

I do think anyone riding fixed brakeless without some sort of pedal retention, a strap even is an absolute tool.

Hipster sled is my favourite replacement for fixie

beauf

In the case in the media much was made of that fact that choosing not use a front brake increased stopping distance dramatically.
So by not having one you were intentionally increasing your braking distance.

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2013/08/23/how-to-brake-on-a-bicycle/
http://comingthru.com/2010/07/4-things-you-should-know-about-bicycle-brakes/

Its similar in cars most of your braking effort is on the front brakes. On a bicycle that is also mostly true but it depends on conditions.

Lumen

CramCycle wrote: »

Fixie is a horrible term and use usually indicates a rider who cannot ride a track bike with minimum expected observation skills.

On the flipside, hypersensitivity over use of the word "fixie" is suggestive of a total hipster. :pac:

eeeee

Lumen wrote: »

On the flipside, hypersensitivity over use of the word "fixie" is suggestive of a total hipster. :pac:

More when people confuse your track bike with a fixie maybe. It's a totally different thing!

Although to be fair mine actually isn't, it's a fixie modified into a track bike

Soon I will get a proper one, oh money, money where art thou money?!

National Championships again today, and once again my bike is the heaviest even with borrowed much lighter wheels (borrowed front wheel was formerly yours Harry). She's my little beefcake :pac:

Harrybelafonte

That's a heavy wheel in fairness.

eeeee

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

That's a heavy wheel in fairness.

It's half the weight of a navigator :pac:

Wishbone Ash

plodder wrote: »

At least with them you can keep a bit of weight on the back of the bike. So, the don't necessarily skid. Skidding means a much reduced stopping force as compared with a rolling tyre.

It's very easy to lock the wheel with coaster brakes but in saying that, it's also easy to know when the wheel may lock and when to modulate braking force.

tomasrojo wrote: »

....Plenty of people around Europe are happy relying entirely on them, so for those low-speed utility journeys, I'm assuming they're perfectly adequate.

Fine for flat, low speed terrain and fairly maintenance free but totally unsuitable for long descents as they heat up and become ineffective.

CramCycle

Lumen wrote: »

On the flipside, hypersensitivity over use of the word "fixie" is suggestive of a total hipster. :pac:

Alas I don't have the money, time or self respect to be a hipster. I am just old before my time. Wish I was a hipster. Maybe I am a proto hipster for the next generation. Young people will be wearing clothes that fitted them well 5 years ago as the new style.