Teacher Recruitment

mtoutlemonde

Was reading a post over on VFT from a teacher with eleven years teaching experience but finding it difficult to get an RPT and claims that NQTs are being favoured as they will be on a much lesser salary than teachers who qualified pre 2012 - what do you think? If this was the case, how can pre 2012 teachers ever find sustainable employment? Surely the unions could take a case but what would that lead to? Interview boards can stand over their interview marks and maybe the NQT was the better candidate and fair play to them. Is it time that members of unions brought this up so panels can be formed like primary schools?
I know that has been an incredibly difficult summer looking for suitable vacancies therefore making competition rife. Anyone else have an opinion? This is not an NQT bashing thread.

Cailin CoisFarraige

I know this was a problem in the UK for while (possibly still is), but this was due to the fact that schools were given a certain amount of funds to pay teachers at their own discretion. So in theory, you could hire two NQT's for the price of one more experienced teacher.

I don't see how this would make any difference to a principal or board of management here though, since it is the DES that pays salaries.

man_no_plan

Cailin CoisFarraige wrote: »

I don't see how this would make any difference to a principal or board of management here though, since it is the DES that pays salaries.

This is it exactly. The most suitable candidate gets the job. 50% of our new staff over the past few years were experienced teachers, some of them had ten years experience or more. They're top class.

Mardy Bum

It is utter rubbish.

dory

I really doubt the principal is worried about how much it'll cost the DES to hire a teacher.
I know of a few principals who like hiring NQTs for many reasons - more likely to do extra curricular, not have kids so can go on trips etc. (I know I'm generalising but it's what I've heard).

r93kaey5p2izun

How does ETB funding work? Do they pay their own salaries from their central funds or do they apply to DES for specific funding for salaries? I know they pay the salary directly but do they give detailed returns to DES to access a separate salary fund or are they just given an overall budget and then manage it from there? If it's a central fund then employing those on the lower scale would certainly have financial benefit for the overall scheme.

mtoutlemonde

dory wrote: »

I really doubt the principal is worried about how much it'll cost the DES to hire a teacher.
I know of a few principals who like hiring NQTs for many reasons - more likely to do extra curricular, not have kids so can go on trips etc. (I know I'm generalising but it's what I've heard).

Yes men (and women). Overwork the NQTs who are only getting to grips with the job and doing whatever the principal asks for 'the good of the school' and 'you'd never know what will happen next year ' and then they let them go after one year to bring in the next victim.

I really hate those extra curricular questions in interviews as nothing you say is good enough - 'What about brain surgery?'

evolving_doors

I think in a few cases the job spec is suspiciously nuanced.. Here's one advertised for music, then when you read the brief "History, Geography, Music to Leaving Certificate Higher Level and Law to Transition Year Level from 1st September 2017. " :pac:

It's probably a mix of a lot of things too. Language, home Ec and Irish applicants probably find the interview process fair enough.

Postgrad10

Oh some of combinations are bizarre to say the least. I send in an application even if there's one of my subjects advertised in the list.

mtoutlemonde

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I think in a few cases the job spec is suspiciously nuanced.. Here's one advertised for music, then when you read the brief "History, Geography, Music to Leaving Certificate Higher Level and Law to Transition Year Level from 1st September 2017. " :pac:

It's probably a mix of a lot of things too. Language, home Ec and Irish applicants probably find the interview process fair enough.

If only. I've never had an easy interview yet.

Yeah bizarre subject combinations - I said it before about post last year with my subjects but the ability to teach Metalwork and DCG a requirement.

mtoutlemonde

Postgrad10 wrote: »

Oh some of combinations are bizarre to say the least. I send in an application even if there's one of my subjects advertised in the list.

And thankfully a lot of schools are now accepting email applications only. Saves printing, trekking to the post office.

Postgrad10

Was it necessary to repost my response? It is possible to send an email !

feardeas

Am example of how that VFT can be bizarre. As someone pointed out the Department is paymaster not the school. I'm assuming ETBs get their funding through the Department so same thing.

Postgrad10

A lot of knowitallness on VFT, and a lot of incorrect advice given. I wouldn't rely on it.

TheDriver

Absolute rubbish, never anything to do with money. There are many reasons why that teacher may not have secured employment but money is definitely not a consideration, ever.

rainbowtrout

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

Was reading a post over on VFT from a teacher with eleven years teaching experience but finding it difficult to get an RPT and claims that NQTs are being favoured as they will be on a much lesser salary than teachers who qualified pre 2012 - what do you think? If this was the case, how can pre 2012 teachers ever find sustainable employment?

Stopped reading VFT a long time ago because some of the posts on it were so mortifying, but what I would say on this is from a couple of friends recent experience (who have those kind of years done and glowing CVs) is their feeling is that there are certain types of principal who want NQTs working for them, who will say how high when told to jump, and who don't 'know their rights'. That's not a dig at NQTs, we've all met new teachers who are confused about contracts, and what hours count and don't count, and reasonable objections for CIDs etc. Someone with 15 years experience, generally knows what they are entitled to, has probably dealt with a certain level of bull**** from management and other staff along the way, and is perhaps less willing to jump through hoops because they've done it in the past, and they just want to get on with their job. Not about money, it's about being clued in.

I can think of one particular school with which I'm familiar where union membership is relatively low, and experienced teachers generally do not succeed at interviews. Result: lots of new teachers, ready to do anything to get the coveted 22 hours. It's not everywhere but it does happen.

Johndoe1962

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I can think of one particular school with which I'm familiar where union membership is relatively low, and experienced teachers generally do not succeed at interviews. Result: lots of new teachers, ready to do anything to get the coveted 22 hours. It's not everywhere but it does happen.

This is very true, seems to be rife.

mtoutlemonde

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I can think of one particular school with which I'm familiar where union membership is relatively low, and experienced teachers generally do not succeed at interviews. Result: lots of new teachers, ready to do anything to get the coveted 22 hours. It's not everywhere but it does happen.

What can unions do if someone isn't successful at interview other than posts?
I think its poor leadership if staff are constantly changing.

rainbowtrout

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

What can unions do if someone isn't successful at interview other than posts?
I think its poor leadership if staff are constantly changing.

I'm not referring to a revolving door where teachers are hired, leave and are replaced. I'm referring to a situation where positions become available through retirements, an increase in allocation due to increased numbers of students in the school, new schools that take five years to have a full complement of students so there are new teachers every year. Lots of scenarios. Even all the extra DP positions this year meant that more teaching positions became available. When you see these scenarios exist and experienced teachers are consistently overlooked for positions within the school then you have to question the hiring policy.

ethical

Recruitment!!! Rainbowtrout is well clue in to what goes on and I admire the honesty.One thing I note from an ETB this summer is the number of changes/switches that have gone on from one school to another WITHOUT advertisement of the "vacancy" on any Media platform,even in-house.I hear the CEO is a law onto itself,then again most of them have pecularities!!!!

Of course you may say that a teacher can be moved about from one school to another within the same ETB without any hassle......then again look at the situation of the teacher in Galway who was badly treated and then won her case in the High Court but the ETB moved her on anyways but not to the same school as they had initially decided upon.

mtoutlemonde

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I'm not referring to a revolving door where teachers are hired, leave and are replaced. I'm referring to a situation where positions become available through retirements, an increase in allocation due to increased numbers of students in the school, new schools that take five years to have a full complement of students so there are new teachers every year. Lots of scenarios. Even all the extra DP positions this year meant that more teaching positions became available. When you see these scenarios exist and experienced teachers are consistently overlooked for positions within the school then you have to question the hiring policy.

Oh I know that but still don't see what a union can do ... as you said in the part I quoted you in schools with little union involvement.
From experience, this was the worst year for recruitment (in my subject area anyway).
I can see why principals take on NQTs because they can train them to their way of thinking as the NQT may not be as clued in as an experienced candidate. I still can't fathom though how they get through interview giving examples of classroom management, examination preparation of students and correction etc. but I'm sure interview boards assign the marks where they want to and make it look fair. I've heard of a teacher who subbed for a good few years in a school, position becomes available, they get called for interview and didn't get the job. I've heard of another who wanted an NQT on the BOM.

mtoutlemonde

ethical wrote: »

Recruitment!!! Rainbowtrout is well clue in to what goes on and I admire the honesty.One thing I note from an ETB this summer is the number of changes/switches that have gone on from one school to another WITHOUT advertisement of the "vacancy" on any Media platform,even in-house.I hear the CEO is a law onto itself,then again most of them have pecularities!!!!

Of course you may say that a teacher can be moved about from one school to another within the same ETB without any hassle......then again look at the situation of the teacher in Galway who was badly treated and then won her case in the High Court but the ETB moved her on anyways but not to the same school as they had initially decided upon.

When appointed to an ETB, you are employed by the ETB and not a particular school and should a vacancy arise, a teacher can be transferred without advertising a vacancy because in a way, there isn't a vacancy. I suppose that's why my local ETB held interviews in May to make panels so vacancies could be filled from this and as a person was on a panel, he/she could be placed in any school in that ETB.

If I'm thinking of the same teacher in Galway, there were mistakes on both sides and if that teacher has been given a job, they are very lucky.

rainbowtrout

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

Oh I know that but still don't see what a union can do ... as you said in the part I quoted you in schools with little union involvement.

I still can't fathom though how they get through interview giving examples of classroom management, examination preparation of students and correction etc. but I'm sure interview boards assign the marks where they want to and make it look fair. I've heard of a teacher who subbed for a good few years in a school, position becomes available, they get called for interview and didn't get the job.

Regarding unions involvement, I agree it's a tricky one, but when you consider what people are applying for it's crazy how people get hired sometimes. Going for a French and Geography job? It's your intercounty foootball that makes the difference.

Often it seems the job that the teacher is being hired for is secondary to everything else. I rarely hear parents complain about school teams not winning the provincial school cup for whatever sport. I do hear them complain about poor teaching or poor grades. My gut feeling is that parents given the choice would by and large opt for the best subject teachers possible and extra curricular is a bonus after that. Most kids seem to be happy playing on the school team regardless of wins or losses.

On the second part of your post, it's easy to give marks for qualifications if your interview panel has decided that you get full marks for having the required degree. That puts all candidates on equal footing. It's the wishy washy 'personality' category that in friends experience is the one where they consistently lose out.

rainbowtrout

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

If I'm thinking of the same teacher in Galway, there were mistakes on both sides and if that teacher has been given a job, they are very lucky.

The case was well publicised. According to the report in the Indo teacher was told she was being moved to Merlin College from New Inn after 17 years. Was told 10 minutes before end of day on last day of school before summer. Questioned why voluntary redeployment was not offered or why 9 teachers who joined the school after her were not before her in the line for redeployment. According to the report she is now going to Galway Community College.

mtoutlemonde

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Regarding unions involvement, I agree it's a tricky one, but when you consider what people are applying for it's crazy how people get hired sometimes. Going for a French and Geography job? It's your intercounty foootball that makes the difference.

Often it seems the job that the teacher is being hired for is secondary to everything else. I rarely hear parents complain about school teams not winning the provincial school cup for whatever sport. I do hear them complain about poor teaching or poor grades. My gut feeling is that parents given the choice would by and large opt for the best subject teachers possible and extra curricular is a bonus after that. Most kids seem to be happy playing on the school team regardless of wins or losses.

On the second part of your post, it's easy to give marks for qualifications if your interview panel has decided that you get full marks for having the required degree. That puts all candidates on equal footing. It's the wishy washy 'personality' category that in friends experience is the one where they consistently lose out.

Yes, I think once you say you don't have an interest in sport - you shoot yourself in ten foot. I'm in full agreement, I'm starting to think that your subject is secondary to what you can offer the school which is difficult to comprehend because even though I see the importance of extra curricular - a teacher has to give up days when they should be in the classroom doing the job they're paid to do instead are travelling the county/country playing matches. Maybe the half day Friday will alleviate this problem as matches can be played at that time.

Yes I love that 'suitability to position' where I have always had most problem with.

mtoutlemonde

rainbowtrout wrote: »

The case was well publicised. According to the report in the Indo teacher was told she was being moved to Merlin College from New Inn after 17 years. Was told 10 minutes before end of day on last day of school before summer. Questioned why voluntary redeployment was not offered or why 9 teachers who joined the school after her were not before her in the line for redeployment. According to the report she is now going to Galway Community College.

I'm thinking of a different incident.

rainbowtrout

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

Yes, I think once you say you don't have an interest in sport - you shoot yourself in ten foot. I'm in full agreement, I'm starting to think that your subject is secondary to what you can offer the school which is difficult to comprehend because even though I see the importance of extra curricular - a teacher has to give up days when they should be in the classroom doing the job they're paid to do instead are travelling the county/country playing matches. Maybe the half day Friday will alleviate this problem as matches can be played at that time.

Yes I love that 'suitability to position' where I have always had most problem with.

I can't vouch for every school in the country that has a half day Friday, but we've had it for 5-6 years and have never played a single match anywhere in any sport on a Friday afternoon. All of the surrounding schools have the half day too, and they would be regular opponents so I presume they don't either.

Mardy Bum

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I'm not referring to a revolving door where teachers are hired, leave and are replaced. I'm referring to a situation where positions become available through retirements, an increase in allocation due to increased numbers of students in the school, new schools that take five years to have a full complement of students so there are new teachers every year. Lots of scenarios. Even all the extra DP positions this year meant that more teaching positions became available. When you see these scenarios exist and experienced teachers are consistently overlooked for positions within the school then you have to question the hiring policy.

Some "experienced" teachers are teachers who are not good at the job and this fact seems to be unacknowledged by many.

mtoutlemonde

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Some "experienced" teachers are teachers who are not good at the job and this fact seems to be unacknowledged by many.

So experience means nothing? There are bad teachers both new and old but the fact that experienced teachers are overlooked and replaced by new ones is downright wrong. I suppose what makes a good/bad teacher is up the principal but do they take a risk employing an NQT over an experienced teacher?

rainbowtrout

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Some "experienced" teachers are teachers who are not good at the job and this fact seems to be unacknowledged by many.

I would agree, and I know some like that and there are good reasons they are not getting jobs. But I'm talking about good experienced teachers, where schools do not want to see them go but they have to move to another part of the country or something like that and they can't get jobs

joebloggs32

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

Yes, I think once you say you don't have an interest in sport - you shoot yourself in ten foot. I'm in full agreement, I'm starting to think that your subject is secondary to what you can offer the school which is difficult to comprehend because even though I see the importance of extra curricular - a teacher has to give up days when they should be in the classroom doing the job they're paid to do instead are travelling the county/country playing matches. Maybe the half day Friday will alleviate this problem as matches can be played at that time.

Yes I love that 'suitability to position' where I have always had most problem with.

It is bad enough staying late for training a couple of evenings a week in the winter, without expecting someone to stay late on an afternoon off especially if it is Friday.

mtoutlemonde

joebloggs32 wrote: »

It is bad enough staying late for training a couple of evenings a week in the winter, without expecting someone to stay late on an afternoon off especially if it is Friday.

I agree but that's the way things are in schools today - extra curricular is king.

Mardy Bum

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I would agree, and I know some like that and there are good reasons they are not getting jobs. But I'm talking about good experienced teachers, where schools do not want to see them go but they have to move to another part of the country or something like that and they can't get jobs

Fair enough but I don't think this is happening as a widespread practice.

Experience is vital for improvement but if a person does not have the capacity in the first place (desperate subject knowledge, lack of social skills, very unassertive, poor worker etc.) they are unlikely to ever be good enough to improve significantly.

This may be controversial but if you are travelling for 12+ years the length and breadth of the country and you have never had a permanent job, the problem is the person not the system.

I have sympathy for those experienced teachers who want to move to a job closer to home because this can be very difficult depending on the subject.

marriedcouple

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I would agree, and I know some like that and there are good reasons they are not getting jobs. But I'm talking about good experienced teachers, where schools do not want to see them go but they have to move to another part of the country or something like that and they can't get jobs

Do you think poor teachers know they are poor teachers or are they under the illusion they are great teachers but it's the system at fault? How does own rate or measure one's own teaching? Is it solely on exam results? What if you are the eternal.sub who has never actually carried a class through from say 5th year to leaving cert. If you are always inheriting someone's else's class are exam results down to your teaching or the main teacher?

Johndoe1962

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Regarding unions involvement, I agree it's a tricky one, but when you consider what people are applying for it's crazy how people get hired sometimes. Going for a French and Geography job? It's your intercounty foootball that makes the difference.

Often it seems the job that the teacher is being hired for is secondary to everything else. I rarely hear parents complain about school teams not winning the provincial school cup for whatever sport. I do hear them complain about poor teaching or poor grades. My gut feeling is that parents given the choice would by and large opt for the best subject teachers possible and extra curricular is a bonus after that. Most kids seem to be happy playing on the school team regardless of wins or losses. /QUOTE]

Couldn't agree more but surely parents can see this pattern?

rainbowtrout

marriedcouple wrote: »

Do you think poor teachers know they are poor teachers or are they under the illusion they are great teachers but it's the system at fault? How does own rate or measure one's own teaching? Is it solely on exam results? What if you are the eternal.sub who has never actually carried a class through from say 5th year to leaving cert. If you are always inheriting someone's else's class are exam results down to your teaching or the main teacher?

It's hard to know. From my experience of teacher's who I don't think are doing a good enough job, I think they are under the impression that everything else is the fault but them, and I suspect that is their attitude to life in general.

E.g. we had a sub in a few years ago, she was a qualified teacher and was having trouble maintaining control of her classes, so one day she just waltzed through the connecting door of the prep room between our labs, and asked me if I could 'sort it out'. No please, thank you, and no hint of mortification either at not being able to do it. It can be hard coming into the school, getting a tough class and then for them to act up because they are seeing how far they can push the sub. But for her not to acknowledge any of this or even attempt to do anything was a bit much. In her mind, they were the problem, she was completely removed from the problem and it was up to someone else, me in this case, to sort out. She didn't last long.

Other problems where a teacher wasn't covering the course, or going to get it covered. Students were stressed, teacher was fobbing them off and fobbing me off when I tackled her. She decided to do things her own way, even though she had a very specific set of guidelines to follow. She got eaten by the external examiner as I knew she would and had warned her about, but still wouldn't just hold her hands up and say she screwed up, it was still the system's fault 'for designing a stupid marking scheme' that she decided to change despite being the national standard.


As for the rest of your questions, they are hard to quantify, we've had a variety of excellent and poor subs in my school over the years and you get a feel for what they are like if they are in for an extended period of time like a maternity leave. You pick up rumblings from kids whether you want to hear it or not. And you certainly hear it from the established teacher on their return, if they find their classes are up to speed or not, some teachers end up taking extra classes after school to make up the shortfall if the sub has been poor.

So grades can get masked in that way. Obviously it can go the other way too, but there are so many factors, kids get grinds, some get them when they have a good teacher and are just lazy, so if they just did the work in school it wouldn't be necessary, and some get them because they have a poor teacher, and the extra tuition possibly masks the poor teaching.

I had a rubbish maths teacher (honours) myself for LC. Most of the class went to grinds in 6th year. Students in HL maths tend to be motivated. There would have been good results with several As. That would have masked the poor teaching.

On the other hand, a teacher with say the bottom class in Irish/Maths could have a string of fails despite working their arse off all year because they have a group of students who are poor attenders and show up twice a week, won't take the foundation paper and insist on doing ordinary level when you know they will fail etc. And you can do very little with them.