Winter tyres last on rough roads?

CiniO

I drive mostly in region, where roads are very bendy, bumpy and generally surface constructed by "surface dressing" technology (assuming that's the right name for it), which is causing very high tyre wear rate. Literally speaking road surface is very rough with lots of sharp chippings on top, so it's obvious why tyres wear quickly. Extra grip, both on dry and wet is very beneficial though.

On average, I'm usually struggling to achieve more than 10,000 km from a set of front tyres.
I tried different brands of tyres though the years, and while wear rate differ between them, generally differences are not significant. Local tyre shops used to advise Nankangs as ones that last longer (and indeed I seem to be getting about 12,000km from them). They also advised Starmaxx, but I didn't try them.

Anyway - Last October as I had older set of Winter tyres (Debica Frigo HP) from 2013 which I was keeping for runs to Continent at winter, but decided to use them here instead as they were getting old and soon wouldn't be any good for snow driving on the Continent.
Put them on in October, thinking that they'll be gone even quicker than most summer tyres (due to softer compound) so will probably last me until March or something.
Surprise, surprise - it's nearly September, and I still have them on. Car has done 20,000 km and while front ones had about 6.5mm tread when I put them in October, now they are down to about 2mm. That looks like extreme low tyre wear (4.5mm tread in 20,000km) while f.e. Nankangs which were quite best I found before were losing 8mm to below 2mm so over 6mm in 12,000km.
This give twice as much longetivity on the winter tyres I put.

I was bit wary of driving on them during the summer months with temperatures around 20deg C, but I was really surprised who much grip they were providing both during wet and dry.

I have set of Uniroyals Rainexpert 3 on other car, which are generally considered to be great for grip on wet roads, and I still think my Winter Debica Frigo HP provided better grip than those Uniroyals (even in the summer).

Now this makes me completelly puzzled.
I really thought that winter tyres will wear way quicker due to softer compound. And I though they'll provide very poor grip at higher temperatures.
Nothing of this was the case on roads I drive.

Does anyone have any ideas why it could be like that?

Is that possible that softer compound of winter tyres, is just flexible enough to deform on sharp chippings of the road surface I drive on, and instead of causing wear they just grip better by sticking into that surface?

I'm strongly considering on purchasing another set of winter tyres for everyday use here both summer and winter.

kermitpwee

Have you changed vehicles?

CiniO

kermitpwee wrote: »

Have you changed vehicles?

The winter tyres I fit last October went to a vehicle which I used for last 4.5 years.

CJhaughey

Perhaps the tread had hardened in the 4 years since you were using them and that accounted for the good wear?
Tyres get harder with heat cycles, over 4-5 years they will have hardened to a perceptible degree and you might find that a newer version may not last anywhere near as long if they are of recent manufacture.

CiniO

CJhaughey wrote: »

Perhaps the tread had hardened in the 4 years since you were using them and that accounted for the good wear?
Tyres get harder with heat cycles, over 4-5 years they will have hardened to a perceptible degree and you might find that a newer version may not last anywhere near as long if they are of recent manufacture.

That's possible theory, but I'm not 100% convinced.

I used them for 2 months December2013 and January2014 (when they were brand new), and then 3 months December2014-February2015.
They've done about 20,000km but it was nearly all on the Continent and only wore down from 8mm to 6.5mm during that mileage.
Between Feb2015 and October2016 they were in storage indoors with fairly constant temperature of about 20degC.
Surely they hardened a bit since they were new, but I can believe that could be much. They still felt way softer (touch wise) comparing to any summer tyres.

CJhaughey

Debica are a budget Goodyear brand, perhaps they are using Goodyear tech that makes them last well?
I'd be interested to see if they hold up well again, my experience with good winter tyres is that they last as long as most tyres if the suspension geometry is good and shocks etc are not worn out.
I ran a set of Continental TS850 a few years ago and I think I did something like 20k miles on a set over a whole year, I didn't replace them for summer tyres.
Once you find a tyre that performs well and lasts well on your car stick with them!
I've been guilty of trying a load of different types of allseason and winters over the last 8 years but have now realised that you can keep chasing the perfect tyre ignoring the ones that performed very well.

CiniO

CJhaughey wrote: »

Debica are a budget Goodyear brand, perhaps they are using Goodyear tech that makes them last well?

I'm not sure about that.
Debica Frigo range is known for having very soft compound, which makes them exceptionally good on snow, but not as great on wet roads.

My understanding was always that soft compound equals high wear rate.

That's what makes me the most puzzled here.

mikeecho

Summer tyres come with 8mm thread.. don't winter tyres come with up to 8 to 10mm thread.

Maybe this is what's making them last longer.

You may have winter tyres with deeper thread.
Anyway, summer in ireland is rarely very hot, and definitely not for extended periods of time.

The climate here allows for using winter/summer/all season, all year round, especially in cork, (city and suburbs) where it very rarely snows.

I run rwd on summers all year .. but then.. I'm spending 250 a corner on average (+fitting, alligment etc)
Last tyre bill was 980 from Camskill.

Rated to 300km/h+, yet car will max at 244km/h

CiniO

mikeecho wrote: »

Summer tyres come with 8mm thread.. don't winter tyres come with up to 8 to 10mm thread.

Maybe this is what's making them last longer.

No, they were 8mm when new same as any other summer tyres.

CJhaughey

CiniO wrote: »

I'm not sure about that.
Debica Frigo range is known for having very soft compound, which makes them exceptionally good on snow, but not as great on wet roads.

My understanding was always that soft compound equals high wear rate.

That's what makes me the most puzzled here.

http://www.goodyear.eu/corporate_emea/our-company/our-brands.jsp

CiniO

CJhaughey wrote: »

http://www.goodyear.eu/corporate_emea/our-company/our-brands.jsp

Oh no, sorry, I'm not trying to deny they are Good Year brand.
I know they are.
Debica factory is only 30km away from my hometown in Poland.
And as this, they are very popular around there, and winter Frigo range is known for soft compound, great snow abilities, and not so well abilities on wet asphalt/tarmac.

Blazer

CiniO wrote: »

winter Frigo range is known for soft compound, great snow abilities, and not so well abilities on wet asphalt/tarmac.

this is the part I can't get over...by default snow tyres tend to have deeper threads and obviously the better the brand the softer the type compound. What you're saying seems to contradict that the tyres are soft as they should be as good on the wet as snow. If good on snow and not rain this indicates that the tyre compound is harder than you think or else the thread patter is completely geared towards snow and not rain/slush etc.
I had a set of Dunlop Winters and brilliant in the snow and absolutely fantastic grip in the rain. Hell my fastest journey home from work in my car was in the lashing rain with the dunlops on in crappy back roads and even in the dry I was 15 seconds off that record with normal summer tyres which was goodyear runflats. (dunlops were runflats also)

CJhaughey

I guess the first thing to start with is finding out how hard the rubber is:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/0-100HA-Rubber-Digital-Hardness-Durometer/dp/B01HMHNMX0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1503478549&sr=8-1&keywords=shore+a+durometer

Once that is known then the tread pattern and tread depth will play a part as will the carcass construction.
Carcass construction makes a big difference to how the tyre performs, the act of the carcass flexing will generate heat which will affect how the tyre performs in different conditions.
Tyres heat up and cool down rapidly in use and it's not often understood how quickly this happens.

hognef

Blazer wrote: »

CiniO wrote: »

winter Frigo range is known for soft compound, great snow abilities, and not so well abilities on wet asphalt/tarmac.

this is the part I can't get over...by default snow tyres tend to have deeper threads and obviously the better the brand the softer the type compound. What you're saying seems to contradict that the tyres are soft as they should be as good on the wet as snow. If good on snow and not rain this indicates that the tyre compound is harder than you think or else the thread patter is completely geared towards snow and not rain/slush etc.
I had a set of Dunlop Winters and brilliant in the snow and absolutely fantastic grip in the rain. Hell my fastest journey home from work in my car was in the lashing rain with the dunlops on in crappy back roads and even in the dry I was 15 seconds off that record with normal summer tyres which was goodyear runflats. (dunlops were runflats also)

Are you saying the softness of the tyre is directly correlated with the general quality (whatever that is) of the tyre? What makes you think that? Why would that be?

And are you saying a softer tyre should perform better in rain? I've never heard that before. Winter tyres are softer specifically for improved grip on ice (not snow, not rain) without resorting to studs (most stud-less winter tyres still don't perform as well on ice as studded ones, but again this is a compromise, this time between air quality and ice grip).

And why are you surprised that the same tyre might perform well on snow and not so well on wet roads? One requires a tread pattern geared towards grip on the snow, the other requires a pattern geared towards pushing away surface water as quickly as possible (yet again a reason why compromises are required, and why a single tyre can't perform the best in all conditions).

Blazer

hognef wrote: »

Are you saying the softness of the tyre is directly correlated with the general quality (whatever that is) of the tyre? What makes you think that? Why would that be?

And are you saying a softer tyre should perform better in rain? I've never heard that before. Winter tyres are softer specifically for improved grip on ice (not snow, not rain) without resorting to studs (most stud-less winter tyres still don't perform as well on ice as studded ones, but again this is a compromise, this time between air quality and ice grip).

And why are you surprised that the same tyre might perform well on snow and not so well on wet roads? One requires a tread pattern geared towards grip on the snow, the other requires a pattern geared towards pushing away surface water as quickly as possible (yet again a reason why compromises are required, and why a single tyre can't perform the best in all conditions).

Michelin's Pilot sport 4 would bed to differ. They're a summer tyre with absolutely phenomenal wet grip.
Snow tyres because they use a softer rubber compound tend to perform better in the wet (lower than 7c).
The more premium the tyre the more quality rubber compound is used in them. Look at the chinese tires and compare it to something like Pirelli/Goodyear etc...the chinese tyres last longer because they have less rubber in them hence are a harder compound. However their grip both in dry and wet is less than a premium tyre.

Have a look below at the video..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elP_34ltdWI&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DelP_34ltdWI&gl=GB&app=desktop

enumbers

my experience on customer cars would be as you'd expect of a winter tyre which would be very noisy on aggressive surfaces and disintegration of the thread as they got low in summer conditions even in Ireland . You seem to have found a very rare exception to that.

on a side note love uniroyals for grip but tend to have very quick very on anything that is anyway heavy on the nose

hognef

Blazer wrote: »

Michelin's Pilot sport 4 would bed to differ. They're a summer tyre with absolutely phenomenal wet grip.

So what? Wet grip is what summer tyres are optimised for. It's why they have a tread. Do they perform equally well on snow? If not, what's your point?

Snow tyres because they use a softer rubber compound tend to perform better in the wet (lower than 7c).

Unless they perform better in the wet in 20 degrees too, what you're saying is snow tyres perform better in the *cold* (what a surprise).

The more premium the tyre the more quality rubber compound is used in them.

Fine. However, "quality rubber compound" is not the same as "soft rubber".

Look at the chinese tires and compare it to something like Pirelli/Goodyear etc...the chinese tyres last longer because they have less rubber in them hence are a harder compound. However their grip both in dry and wet is less than a premium tyre.

Right... That doesn't mean there's a direct correlation between softness and quality. Otherwise, it'd be fairly straightforward to make the best possible tyre: just use the softest possible compound... "Quality" (which, by the way, means different things to different people) in a tyre is comprised of many factors, such as stopping distances on dry, wet, icy and snowy surfaces, noise levels, rate of wear, of which some, but certainly not all, are dependent on the softness of the tyre.

Have a look below at the video..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elP_34ltdWI&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DelP_34ltdWI&gl=GB&app=desktop

Eh.. Are you seriously showing me that winter tyres are better on snow than summer tyres? Wow! This changes things!

As stated, I'm from a wintery country and well used to and aware of the benefits of changing between sets of tyres every November and March. I don't need education on that topic.

However, regardless of that, I don't understand what your point is.

Blazer

hognef wrote: »

Eh.. Are you seriously showing me that winter tyres are better on snow than summer tyres? Wow! This changes things!

As stated, I'm from a wintery country and well used to and aware of the benefits of changing between sets of tyres every November and March. I don't need education on that topic.

However, regardless of that, I don't understand what your point is.

jesus christ..they test the winter tires on wet roads and prove that they're better at stopping than summer tyres. Less sarcasm and more intelligence please.
There's a reason they're called winter tyres and not snow tires :rolleyes:
I suggest you read the post by the op where he said the tyres are know for their good snow performance and poor wet performance which doesn't add up unless the op meant that wet performance in high temps is poor which is a well known fact. Above 7c but really above 12c as I've found the winter tyres get too hot and due to the amount of soft rubber compound in them do not maintain enough integrity to maintain a proper grip on the road.
Winter tyres should have both excellent snow and wet performance in the cold and this is proven time and time again.

hognef

Blazer wrote: »

jesus christ..they test the winter tires on wet roads and prove that they're better at stopping than summer tyres. Less sarcasm and more intelligence please.
There's a reason they're called winter tyres and not snow tires :rolleyes:
I suggest you read the post by the op where he said the tyres are know for their good snow performance and poor wet performance which doesn't add up unless the op meant that wet performance in high temps is poor which is a well known fact. Above 7c but really above 12c as I've found the winter tyres get too hot and due to the amount of soft rubber compound in them do not maintain enough integrity to maintain a proper grip on the road.
Winter tyres should have both excellent snow and wet performance in the cold and this is proven time and time again.

Right. I missed the part of the video where they were comparing summer and winter tyres on wet roads. That doesn't really change anything though. It's fairly well known that winter tyres tend to perform better in cool temperatures (as you say, below roughly +7). So the point still stands, they're better in cool/cold temperatures. They're not generally better than summer tyres in wet conditions (disregarding temperature).

Maybe CiniO was talking about wet and cold combined, but I'm not sure that was completely clear. After all, the thread started with him driving on those tyres in the summer.

My original point still stands too, i.e. that there's no guarantee that a particular (winter) tyre that performs well in snow will necessarily also perform well in rain (in the cold). There are obviously differences between brands: some will be better in snow, some will be better in rain, some will be better on ice, and some might be reasonably good in all three. That shouldn't come as a surprise.

I'm not familiar with the Frigos that CiniO is referring to, but from what I could find in terms of tests, their stopping distances are pretty much average (relative to other winter tyres) both on snow and in wet conditions.

Blazer

hognef wrote: »

Right. I missed the part of the video where they were comparing summer and winter tyres on wet roads. That doesn't really change anything though. It's fairly well known that winter tyres tend to perform better in cool temperatures (as you say, below roughly +7). So the point still stands, they're better in cool/cold temperatures. They're not generally better than summer tyres in wet conditions (disregarding temperature).

Summers would be better because the tyre has better integrity in higher temps..
But in lower temps in the wet the winter tyres are far better which is to be expected.
I made the assumption the op was complaining about the winters wet performance in low temps but if he wasn't then he shouldn't really be using winters in high temps.