ACA vs ACCA ; Practice vs Industry

Midlife crisis man

Hi guys. I'm about to head in to my final year of an accounting degree and I need to start seriously thinking about the end-game, especially with the milk-rounds just around the corner, but I have a few questions that I'd like clarification on.

The first is the old ACA vs ACCA debate. I have been told that the ACCA is more "flexible" for mature students and those with families and that it would suit me better, but what does this "flexibility" actually mean?

Also, when it comes down to graduate positions, what is the difference in the roles in practice v industry. Or, in general what are the differences between the two? Again, the advice I have been given is that Industry is more suited for ACCA while practice is more suited for ACA? Which then leads me to my next question..

Who are the best Industry recruiters? I know of the Big 4 and the Top 10 in practice but who are the biggest and best for Industry. The banks I assume? or are the training and standards the same across most big companies eg Glanbia, CocaCola?

Cliff 1234

Flexibility means exams available 4 sittings a year - you choose when to do them or to skip a sitting if you have family issues to deal with. CAI is a set menu, you sit when you are told to sit once a year, ACCA is the al La Carte menu - take one or two subjects every 3 months if you want. In practice plan to pass 3 exams a year and each exam is 10 weeks of pretty intense study.

Practice pays less but generally gives more study leave and will produce a more rounded accountant with broader experience.
Industry pays more but offers less study leave and you can have narrow experience.

Some industry employers have excellent graduate training programmes and some large practices have crap ones. Go for the employer offering the best experience and not the one offering the most money. The industry people you mention have good training programmes as do Kerry and lots more. Fund accounting pays well but has a very limited horizon. Mid tier practice is a very good training ground. Big 4 can be good and bad, manage your experience carefully if you go big 4. Check out the career notice board in your college for good graduate training programmes and ask the recruiters in interview what their programme entails.

Midlife crisis man

Thanks for your input. In your experience, do practice firms (including the big 4) solely employ ACA graduates or do they also take on ACCA candidates too?

Loughc

Midlife crisis man wrote: »

Thanks for your input. In your experience, do practice firms (including the big 4) solely employ ACA graduates or do they also take on ACCA candidates too?

Practice takes any of the professional qualifications, ACCA, ACA, CPA, etc.

Midlife crisis man

That's good to know. I'm going to apply to the big4 this week and my preference is for ACCA.

As an aside. I see that public accounting jobs have a much higher starting salary e.g. the office of the comptroller and auditor general has a starting salary of €32k. Seems like a better deal than private firms for grads or am I missing something?

Humour Me

Midlife crisis man wrote: »

That's good to know. I'm going to apply to the big4 this week and my preference is for ACCA.

As an aside. I see that public accounting jobs have a much higher starting salary e.g. the office of the comptroller and auditor general has a starting salary of €32k. Seems like a better deal than private firms for grads or am I missing something?

Salaries increase much faster in practice and industry especially once qualified. You are tied to civil service salary scales in the C&AG. You also need to consider what the after tax income will be. The pension related deduction (PRD) on top of other deductions which you cannot opt out of, have a significant impact on the pay you actually receive.

Cyrus

Midlife crisis man wrote: »

Thanks for your input. In your experience, do practice firms (including the big 4) solely employ ACA graduates or do they also take on ACCA candidates too?

big 4 will probably want you to do ACA like the rest of the graduates. they will be unlikely to facilitate someone doing something different as the whole contract is built around the aca timetable.

and if you are going into practice i would recommend Big 4 only, otherwise dont bother.

TitianGerm

Cyrus wrote: »

and if you are going into practice i would recommend Big 4 only, otherwise dont bother.

I don't think I've ever read such a crazy statement in my life. If the OP wants to work in a smaller practice he should go ahead.

I've friends who trained in Big 4, Top 10, Top 20 and small firms and all are exactly where they want to be.

One of the most intelligent guys I know, who works in a three man firm was headhunted by all of the big four straight out of a master's, he's an excellent accountant and has a serious amount of knowledge on a vast array of topics. He turned them all down. They still call him every few months to see if he's changed his mind. If being trained in a small firm was such a disadvantage then the big 4 wouldn't try to recruit guys who have experience working in those environments.

Cyrus

emmetkenny wrote: »

I don't think I've ever read such a crazy statement in my life. If the OP wants to work in a smaller practice he should go ahead.

I've friends who trained in Big 4, Top 10, Top 20 and small firms and all are exactly where they want to be.

One of the most intelligent guys I know, who works in a three man firm was headhunted by all of the big four straight out of a master's, he's an excellent accountant and has a serious amount of knowledge on a vast array of topics. He turned them all down. They still call him every few months to see if he's changed his mind. If being trained in a small firm was such a disadvantage then the big 4 wouldn't try to recruit guys who have experience working in those environments.

easy tiger

if you havent read any more crazy statements on boards you havent been in AH yet :P

anyway, im not sure what your background is but ive been through all this, im not speaking about my friends, or people i heard about.

And nowhere did i denigrate people who have worked in smaller practices (although ill be honest, in general, they tend to be of a poorer calibre and this is as a client of a top 10 firm).

my point is about maximising your earnings.

In general, big 4 trained accountants earn 20-50% more than those who didnt train big 4.

Look at all the jobs that specify big 4 training. Its a branding, and a valuable one.

Cyrus

Midlife crisis man wrote: »

That's good to know. I'm going to apply to the big4 this week and my preference is for ACCA.

As an aside. I see that public accounting jobs have a much higher starting salary e.g. the office of the comptroller and auditor general has a starting salary of €32k. Seems like a better deal than private firms for grads or am I missing something?

its bound to be different by now but my experience of big 4 was starting at 21.5k :eek:ended up at 47.5k 3 years later when my contract ended.

i dont think things will move like that in the PS.

Chartered Accountants Ireland: Careers Team

Cliff 1234 wrote: »

Flexibility means exams available 4 sittings a year - you choose when to do them or to skip a sitting if you have family issues to deal with. CAI is a set menu, you sit when you are told to sit once a year, ACCA is the al La Carte menu - take one or two subjects every 3 months if you want. In practice plan to pass 3 exams a year and each exam is 10 weeks of pretty intense study.

Hi there, just wanted to clarify this point - with the Chartered Accountants Ireland Flexible Route, you have exam sittings twice a year, in summer and autumn, and you can split your papers over both sittings. You also have flexibility around how many subjects you take, and you can opt for the "distance programme", which combines online learning (instead of lectures) and classroom based workshops.

If you'd like more info, please drop me a PM.

TitianGerm

Cyrus wrote: »

easy tiger

if you havent read any more crazy statements on boards you havent been in AH yet :P

anyway, im not sure what your background is but ive been through all this, im not speaking about my friends, or people i heard about.

And nowhere did i denigrate people who have worked in smaller practices (although ill be honest, in general, they tend to be of a poorer calibre and this is as a client of a top 10 firm).

my point is about maximising your earnings.

In general, big 4 trained accountants earn 20-50% more than those who didnt train big 4.

Look at all the jobs that specify big 4 training. Its a branding, and a valuable one.

Apologies if my post came across as annoyed that was not the intention.

There are plenty of extremely well trained accountants out there who did not train in Big 4, and if the person is driven enough, where you train will matter less to your future earning potential.

I'm training in a medium sized firm at the minute. They have been extremely good to me (postponed exams, time off, additional leave when a family member passed away and were very flexible when I had some medical issues myself where I missed quite a bit of time during my second year).

To me money isn't everything. If I can pay my bills and still have a bit of money to save at the end of the month I'm happy.

What I do value is a good work to life balance and I have that in my current position. I turned down a new job offer with a hefty pay rise earlier this year because the hours were going to be a bit longer and I prefer to spend my spare time with my family or enjoying my past times.

Cyrus

emmetkenny wrote: »

Apologies if my post came across as annoyed that was not the intention.

There are plenty of extremely well trained accountants out there who did not train in Big 4, and if the person is driven enough, where you train will matter less to your future earning potential.

I'm training in a medium sized firm at the minute. They have been extremely good to me (postponed exams, time off, additional leave when a family member passed away and were very flexible when I had some medical issues myself where I missed quite a bit of time during my second year).

To me money isn't everything. If I can pay my bills and still have a bit of money to save at the end of the month I'm happy.

What I do value is a good work to life balance and I have that in my current position. I turned down a new job offer with a hefty pay rise earlier this year because the hours were going to be a bit longer and I prefer to spend my spare time with my family or enjoying my past times.

thats all fine, you'll note my post said in general, but it does hold. I have done a lot of hiring over the past 5 years and the difference is quite stark.

if money doesnt motivate you thats fine as well, however you made the point above about being driven, assume you werent speaking personally then?

TitianGerm

Cyrus wrote: »

thats all fine, you'll note my post said in general, but it does hold. I have done a lot of hiring over the past 5 years and the difference is quite stark.

if money doesnt motivate you thats fine as well, however you made the point above about being driven, assume you werent speaking personally then?

My post about been driven was more in general, that if anyone is driven enough then they can maximize their earning potential to a level they are happy with.


Personally I'm happy in my current firm. I work hard and it is noticed, other places I've worked your a hard work was not and that was something I found very pleasing about here.

I try to negotiate additional days annual leave along with salary increases in my reviews and so far it seems to be working (they were a bit shocked when I brought it up initially).

Maybe in a few years this will change and I'll look to move on but I don't see it for a good while yet.

Cyrus

emmetkenny wrote: »

My post about been driven was more in general, that if anyone is driven enough then they can maximize their earning potential to a level they are happy with.


Personally I'm happy in my current firm. I work hard and it is noticed, other places I've worked your a hard work was not and that was something I found very pleasing about here.

I try to negotiate additional days annual leave along with salary increases in my reviews and so far it seems to be working (they were a bit shocked when I brought it up initially).

Maybe in a few years this will change and I'll look to move on but I don't see it for a good while yet.

fair enough, i would still maintain its easier to make more money more quickly if you train big 4, it opens more doors, you have a stronger network etc etc

success looks different for everyone, it sounds like you enjoy where you work and are happy there

i think this thread from last year backs up my assertions:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=100648328

and the findings from the salary review would seem realistic to me

TitianGerm

Cyrus wrote: »

fair enough, i would still maintain its easier to make more money more quickly if you train big 4, it opens more doors, you have a stronger network etc etc

success looks different for everyone, it sounds like you enjoy where you work and are happy there

Yes I'll agree on the networking, Big 4 will help you there. There is still plenty someone in a smaller firm can do to help that though through conferences and banking/business events.

It was more your point of train in big 4 or don't bother that stood out for me. A career in accountancy can be very rewarding (both financially and work life balance).

Cyrus

emmetkenny wrote: »

Yes I'll agree on the networking, Big 4 will help you there. There is still plenty someone in a smaller firm can do to help that though through conferences and banking/business events.

It was more your point of train in big 4 or don't bother that stood out for me. A career in accountancy can be very rewarding (both financially and work life balance).

perhaps it was a little insensitive, i'm in accountancy because i'm good at it and because you can earn good money, for me maximising my earnings is one of my primary goals. So maybe take my comments in that context

its pretty rare that financial rewards and work life balance will go hand in hand always, there will be times here work life balance will have to suffer if you want to maximise your earning potential.

TitianGerm

Cyrus wrote: »

perhaps it was a little insensitive, i'm in accountancy because i'm good at it and because you can earn good money, for me maximising my earnings is one of my primary goals. So maybe take my comments in that context

its pretty rare that financial rewards and work life balance will go hand in hand always, there will be times here work life balance will have to suffer if you want to maximise your earning potential.

Same as me so. I chose accountancy because I'm good at it and I enjoy working with figures/solving problems.

I'll give up a higher salary for more flexibility from an employer, more annual leave, shorter commute and no expectancy to do overtime.

A good friend of mine is an AVP in the banking sector and he's working 12-14 hours a day. He takes home an awful more than I do but he's exhausted and the guy hasn't time to enjoy life. That's just not for some people.

Midlife crisis man

Very good insights guys. A lot of food for thought. My work /life balance is very important to me but I think to build the networks I want and get to the salary I want, I think I'll have to train with the big4. I'm currently in my final year in college and so far maintaining a 1.1 average so I hope to keep that up.

I actually just finished applying to one of the Big 4 and I didn't really like their application process. I couldn't progress until I filled in my leaving cert results. I'm a mature student and sat my leaving cert about 16 years ago and I can barely remember what subjects I had never mind my results. There doesn't seem to be a way to get around that option

Cyrus

Midlife crisis man wrote: »

Very good insights guys. A lot of food for thought. My work /life balance is very important to me but I think to build the networks I want and get to the salary I want, I think I'll have to train with the big4. I'm currently in my final year in college and so far maintaining a 1.1 average so I hope to keep that up.

I actually just finished applying to one of the Big 4 and I didn't really like their application process. I couldn't progress until I filled in my leaving cert results. I'm a mature student and sat my leaving cert about 16 years ago and I can barely remember what subjects I had never mind my results. There doesn't seem to be a way to get around that option

the forms can be a pain, i remember i ended up not doing them all because they took so long, the folly of youth!

anyway might be an idea to call them, see if they can assist, there will be a team of internal recruiters and good luck!