Metro North Tender Issued, DART Underground dead in the water?

ClovenHoof

Looks officially in motion now. Dublin is finally going to get the bones of an underground rail network. The DART Underground is almost certainly history due to the behaviour of CIE Unions and I do not blame the government. Particularly the NBRU blackmail leading to no 10 min DART service.

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=117081&B=ETENDERS_SIMPLE&PS=1&PP=ctm/Supplier/publictenders

noelfirl

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Looks officially in motion now. Dublin is finally going to get the bones of an underground rail network. The DART Underground is almost certainly history due to the behaviour of CIE Unions and I do not blame the government. Particularly the NBRU blackmail leading to no 10 min DART service.

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=117081&B=ETENDERS_SIMPLE&PS=1&PP=ctm/Supplier/publictenders

It's really just a tender to redesign and plan it again. Which allows for another 3-4 years delay, including planning permission, hearings, etc. And another change in government. And another reappraisal. And a period of reflection.

I tend not to believe that new rail projects in Ireland are going to happen until I actually see hoarding going up around the construction sites.

ClovenHoof

noelfirl wrote: »

It's really just a tender to redesign and plan it again. Which allows for another 3-4 years delay, including planning permission, hearings, etc. And another change in government. And another reappraisal. And a period of reflection.

I tend not to believe that new rail projects in Ireland are going to happen until I actually see hoarding going up around the construction sites.

I agree with you there but I think this time things are different. Thanks to Luas, rail transport is a voting issue.

Most of the human waste which were in politics and journalism when Transport 21 was announced are either retired or maggot food. It's a different world now. The Westen Rail Corridor psychosis is out of the way too.

Infini

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Looks officially in motion now. Dublin is finally going to get the bones of an underground rail network. The DART Underground is almost certainly history due to the behaviour of CIE Unions and I do not blame the government. Particularly the NBRU blackmail leading to no 10 min DART service.

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=117081&B=ETENDERS_SIMPLE&PS=1&PP=ctm/Supplier/publictenders

Stop looking to blame unions for the sake of it anyone with time to check the facts would've seen that the real issues arent the unions on this who would be protecting their members like they're meant to but the infrastructure itself including

1) 5 level crossing within the space of 2 miles on the southside
2) An already badly congested loopline due to the hazelhatch services
3) A fiendishly underdeveloped/underinvested northern line between Connolly and Clongriffin.

And lets remember of course that it was FG in their infinite stupidity that cancelled it at the last minute because they refused to see it as an infrastrucural investment thats NEEDED.

Fact is we need SERIOUS investment and construction of rail in Dublin as the roads are seriously congested for traffic and theres little room for busses at this stage we need underground investment and heavy rail solutions.

patrickbrophy18

All tenders and fancy maps showcasing projects such as Metro North to date appear to be nothing more than borrowed time for promises which are probably not going to get realized in our life times.

To echo what noelfirl said, until we "see hoarding going up around the construction sites" or the first millimeter of tunnel boring has been carried out, all planning documents, fancy maps and tenders are just words.

The phrase "actions speak louder than words" is completely applicable to Metro North never-mind DART Underground and other high-profile projects.

To cut a long story short, get on with it already.

LeinsterDub

Infini wrote: »

Stop looking to blame unions for the sake of it anyone with time to check the facts would've seen that the real issues arent the unions on this who would be protecting their members like they're meant to but the infrastructure itself including

1) 5 level crossing within the space of 2 miles on the southside
2) An already badly congested loopline due to the hazelhatch services
3) A fiendishly underdeveloped/underinvested northern line between Connolly and Clongriffin.

And lets remember of course that it was FG in their infinite stupidity that cancelled it at the last minute because they refused to see it as an infrastrucural investment thats NEEDED.

Fact is we need SERIOUS investment and construction of rail in Dublin as the roads are seriously congested for traffic and theres little room for busses at this stage we need underground investment and heavy rail solutions.

What has any of that got to do with ten minute darts?

ClovenHoof

I would support a complete ban on any further captial investement in CIE companies. All of them.

end of the road

ClovenHoof wrote: »

The DART Underground is almost certainly history due to the behaviour of CIE Unions and I do not blame the government.

it's dead because the government don't want to build it and they are fully to blame for not investing in vital infrastructure. it's nothing to do with the unions.

Deedsie wrote: »

It's not just the unions that make investing in rail unlikely. The higher ups in CIE also make it next to impossible for any government to trust CIE with any kind of major investment. The would waste half of it and make a bags of delivering the project. The unions play their part in hamstringing investment too. Their members "needs" would have to be catered for before the public could ever dream of having an improved rail service.

that may be the case but that's not really a good excuse as far as i'm concerned. it could be something put into the hands of the NTA to build if needed be, after all that is what they are supposibly there for. the only thing stopping this is a lack of will and interest by government because "more roads begorra something something"

Deedsie wrote: »

Government are making the prudent decision not going near that hornets nest with a major investment project. Build Dublin Metro and let someone else run it properly.

or build the whole route as dart/dart underground. no point in having another type of rail in the city. a DU/dart north integrated with the existing heavy rail network with quad tracking where possible out of the connolly area would give a lot more integration and bang for the buck then a metro which can only work within itself.

LeinsterDub wrote: »

What has any of that got to do with ten minute darts?

by the looks of it it has everything to do with it. little infrastructure and other services sharing a double track with few passing loops, and becoming fewer and fewer sidings so CIE property can cash in, makes implementation of a 10 minute dart difficult i'd imagine.

ClovenHoof

Nah, the fact is that whoever decided to take the Luas away from CIE and created the RPA almost certainly saved rail transport in Dublin and gave it the bright future is has now.

Zebra3

DU is dead because FG are a right-wing party that is committed to privatisation.

This isn't exactly top secret stuff. That's who they are, and that's how their policies are formulated.

end of the road

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Nah, the fact is that whoever decided to take the Luas away from CIE and created the RPA almost certainly saved rail transport in Dublin and gave it the bright future is has now.

they didn't save it as light rail will always attract people, even IE could manage attracting usage to it it's that easy. it's so basic to run and can be put nearly anywhere within an area where there is the numbers for it. segregation however is it's downfall however that could be done with political will, cut down the number of cars by implementing a congestion charge, and it should be able to run around quite quickly. however it's not a get out of investing in heavy rail, which is the mistake government have tried to make and that will backfire down the line.
the government refuse to implement the biggest project needed for our heavy rail network, DU, instead it wastes time and money on reviews of the plans and reviews of the reviews and reviews of the reviews of the reviews and reviews of the reviews of the reviews of the reviews. for that there is no excuse.
as i said there is no reason why the all singing all dancing regulator we have now couldn't be given the money to build DU and they would be responsible to insure it gets built properly. however the reality is ffg just do not wish to build it, that's their fault and nobody elses.

LeinsterDub

Zebra3 wrote: »

DU is dead because FG are a right-wing party that is committed to privatisation.

This isn't exactly top secret stuff. That's who they are, and that's how their policies are formulated.

In the context of this forum what has FG privatised?

LuckyLloyd

ClovenHoof wrote: »

I would support a complete ban on any further captial investement in CIE companies. All of them.

I want Dart Underground built because it is badly required, and was identified as such in 1975. That trumps any ideological preoccupation with Unions.

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Nah, the fact is that whoever decided to take the Luas away from CIE and created the RPA almost certainly saved rail transport in Dublin and gave it the bright future is has now.

The LUAS is very easy to run. It has also had a major Workplace dispute incident in the last year that severely disrupted services. So this post is baffling to me.

plodder

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Looks officially in motion now. Dublin is finally going to get the bones of an underground rail network. The DART Underground is almost certainly history due to the behaviour of CIE Unions and I do not blame the government. Particularly the NBRU blackmail leading to no 10 min DART service.

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=117081&B=ETENDERS_SIMPLE&PS=1&PP=ctm/Supplier/publictenders

Could DU not be given to the RPA? Or to put it another way, what would DU look like if it had to be built by the RPA?

LeinsterDub

plodder wrote: »

Could DU not be given to the RPA? Or to put it another way, what would DU look like if it had to be built by the RPA?

The ownership of DU or who's building it wouldn't be the issue. It's who would run it after.

goingnowhere

RPA haven't got the resources any more to run projects, hence the tender for someone to do all the leg work for metro north which was previously done mostly in house

Irish Rail did some of the civil engineering work for Luas Cross City under contract for TFI so be careful what you try to restrict. Everything about the Luas was designed by Irish Rail in the first place, the RPA just had to build it.

plodder

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The ownership of DU or who's building it wouldn't be the issue. It's who would run it after.

Right, what I was asking, with that in mind is how different would it look in order to cut Irish Rail out of the running of it. Is multiple rail operators on a single track network feasible in this country?

plodder

goingnowhere wrote: »

RPA haven't got the resources any more to run projects, hence the tender for someone to do all the leg work for metro north which was previously done mostly in house

Irish Rail did some of the civil engineering work for Luas Cross City under contract for TFI so be careful what you try to restrict. Everything about the Luas was designed by Irish Rail in the first place, the RPA just had to build it.

Sure, we're just chewing the fat here. It's just, it's not the first time I heard that Dart Underground is out of favour because of bad industrial relations at Irish Rail. That's a bizarre situation if it's true. It's obviously no skin off workers noses whether DU happens or not, nor IR management for that matter. It's Ireland Inc that suffers.

LeinsterDub

plodder wrote: »

Right, what I was asking, with that in mind is how different would it look in order to cut Irish Rail out of the running of it. Is multiple rail operators on a single track network feasible in this country?

It may be feasible to tender out the Dart and Dublin and Cork commuter but IE own all the rails, stations and works. The staff would most likely object to it like DB staff did too shared garages. Also your also left with the issue that the rump IE operation would be hemorrhaging money as you've taken the crowd jewels.

budhabob

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The ownership of DU or who's building it wouldn't be the issue. It's who would run it after.

DU (the infra) was to be operated by a private entity, with IÉ provided access to it.

As for RPA (TII) delivering the project, its conceivable, however people should remember there were significant overruns during the original construction of the Luas.

goingnowhere

Metro North was to be built and funded by the private sector with the state paying a fee for 25 years afterwards (basically a glorified mortgage)

DART underground was a straight exchequer funding operation

As always with our government, kick the can down the road its much easier to go with Metro North as you don't have to pay for it until later, i.e beyond the next election.

Given the way the debt markets are right now, the Irish state can borrow are a fraction of commercial rates so it would make sense to do both, but build one first and then reuse the equipment and knowledge on the second, but that would assume the tunnels were the same size

budhabob

goingnowhere wrote: »

Metro North was to be built and funded by the private sector with the state paying a fee for 25 years afterwards (basically a glorified mortgage)

DART underground was a straight exchequer funding operation

As always with our government, kick the can down the road its much easier to go with Metro North as you don't have to pay for it until later, i.e beyond the next election.

Given the way the debt markets are right now, the Irish state can borrow are a fraction of commercial rates so it would make sense to do both, but build one first and then reuse the equipment and knowledge on the second, but that would assume the tunnels were the same size

Not true, it was intended to use a PPP model for DU also. DU just had a bigger price tag (regardless of benefit) so first to get the chop.

bk

Zebra3 wrote: »

DU is dead because FG are a right-wing party that is committed to privatisation.

This isn't exactly top secret stuff. That's who they are, and that's how their policies are formulated.

Just a reminder:
- It was FF who took Luas project off IR and created the RPA
- It was FF who created the NTA

FF has no more love for CIE/IR then FG does. The truth is all political parties think that the CIE companies and unions are a pain in the neck.

plodder wrote: »

Could DU not be given to the RPA? Or to put it another way, what would DU look like if it had to be built by the RPA?

It would actually be built by TII, they handle all major construction projects now.

That isn't the issue, the issue is who runs the trains through it once built.

The problem is Irish Rail will be €160 million in debt by the end of the year and CIE has upcoming massive pension problem. Add to that the previous refusal by DART drivers to operate 8 carriage DART's until they got paid an extra €10k and the current hold ups with the 10 minute DART schedule and you can very clearly see why the government are slow to want to spend billions building a project to be run by such a troubled organisation.

I have heard some thought given in government services to pulling DART out of Irish rail and setting it up as some sort of separate entity from CIE. Either on it's own our under RPA, etc. But that would still be complicated as they would still be using IR stations, tracks, etc. and interacting with commuter and intercity rail.

I have speculated (with zero support to back this up), that once the Dublin Metro is built, the government might decide instead to go for a East-West Metro line, rather then DART Underground. It would be much cheaper to build and likely to avoid all the trouble with Irish Rail. Though obviously that would be much less ideal in terms of maximising the heavy rail network.

goingnowhere

Just to be clear

DART drivers go absolutely nothing for 8 coach DART's, the WRC threw the unions claim out

The DART drivers did get a 10k payout and this was the break the entry requirements, as until 2009 ish direct entry to the DART driving grade was not possible, you had to be a driver elsewhere

The current union deal is basically drive any electric train, anywhere, any time 364 days a year. The 10 minute frequency is just a wedge to force a pay claim and nothing more.

If you count the number of strike days on Irish Rail over the last 10 years vs the number on Luas the numbers would tell you Irish Rail is not the problem.

marno21

bk wrote: »

Just a reminder:
- It was FF who took Luas project off IR and created the RPA
- It was FF who created the NTA

FF has no more love for CIE/IR then FG does. The truth is all political parties think that the CIE companies and unions are a pain in the neck.



It would actually be built by TII, they handle all major construction projects now.

That isn't the issue, the issue is who runs the trains through it once built.

The problem is Irish Rail will be €160 million in debt by the end of the year and CIE has upcoming massive pension problem. Add to that the previous refusal by DART drivers to operate 8 carriage DART's until they got paid an extra €10k and the current hold ups with the 10 minute DART schedule and you can very clearly see why the government are slow to want to spend billions building a project to be run by such a troubled organisation.

I have heard some thought given in government services to pulling DART out of Irish rail and setting it up as some sort of separate entity from CIE. Either on it's own our under RPA, etc. But that would still be complicated as they would still be using IR stations, tracks, etc. and interacting with commuter and intercity rail.

I have speculated (with zero support to back this up), that once the Dublin Metro is built, the government might decide instead to go for a East-West Metro line, rather then DART Underground. It would be much cheaper to build and likely to avoid all the trouble with Irish Rail. Though obviously that would be much less ideal in terms of maximising the heavy rail network.

I was going to post here but this sums it up.

The Government aren't going to pour 4bn into CIE given all the current issues with them. It's easier to drive CIE into the ground and start afresh with rail services put out to tender and the infrastructure maintained by a state infrastructure organisation. Not full privatisation.

An East-West Metro would be a terrible use of money, basically an underground Luas Red Line without all the benefits of an interconnected heavy rail network.

Infini

It would be easier if they just held management to account in IR for things that shouldve been done and actually invest properly in the infrastructure instead of making excuses. Trying to undermine the company isnt a solution it creates a bigger problem down the road you really think that the actual staff working there will just simply roll over and have their T&C's undermined like that?

Wether anyone likes it or not you have to talk with your staff to get them on board, noone is gonna deny that management are crap in IR there's things that never get sorted that would'nt be left alone in a Private company. Unions arent perfect but you still need someone to coordinate staff issues you really think trying to negotiate with 2500 odd individual staff is gonna be feisable.

The 10m service isn't feisable IMO because of what I said before if you want that kind of service or even better you have to invest not make excuses but Irish planning has a history of being spotty at best.

Nermal

LeinsterDub wrote: »

It may be feasible to tender out the Dart and Dublin and Cork commuter but IE own all the rails, stations and works. The staff would most likely object to it like DB staff did too shared garages. Also your also left with the issue that the rump IE operation would be hemorrhaging money as you've taken the crowd jewels.

That sounds like both an opportunity, rather than a problem!

LeinsterDub

Infini wrote: »

Wether anyone likes it or not you have to talk with your staff to get them on board, noone is gonna deny that management are crap in IR there's things that never get sorted that would'nt be left alone in a Private company. Unions arent perfect but you still need someone to coordinate staff issues you really think trying to negotiate with 2500 odd individual staff is gonna be feisable.

These are the staff some of who are still being paid cash? Union's have the mentality the if we object to everything we can get a little sweetener come pay talks by removing their objections to the trivial matters.

Infini

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Infini wrote: »

Wether anyone likes it or not you have to talk with your staff to get them on board, noone is gonna deny that management are crap in IR there's things that never get sorted that would'nt be left alone in a Private company. Unions arent perfect but you still need someone to coordinate staff issues you really think trying to negotiate with 2500 odd individual staff is gonna be feisable.

These are the staff some of who are still being paid cash? Union's have the mentality the if we object to everything we can get a little sweetener come pay talks by removing their objections to the trivial matters.

And yet so what exactly? People have legal rights wether you like it or not these issues usually have legal backing as well its why you NEGOTIATE with people and not Dictate. Remember the same kind of bad management is whats got staff having so little trust in them in the first place.

LeinsterDub

Infini wrote: »

And yet so what exactly? People have legal rights wether you like it or not these issues usually have legal backing as well its why you NEGOTIATE with people and not Dictate. Remember the same kind of bad management is whats got staff having so little trust in them in the first place.

No one is suggesting their rights be removed.

ClovenHoof

marno21 wrote: »

An East-West Metro would be a terrible use of money, basically an underground Luas Red Line without all the benefits of an interconnected heavy rail network.

It would not be terrible. But it would not be as good as the DART Underground.

But it would still be a good option. The route would be key.

end of the road

Nermal wrote: »

That sounds like both an opportunity, rather than a problem!

not really no . hiving off bits of the railway is complete nonsense for a small country. an integrated railway like we currently have is the only option. if it's to be tendered out then the lot must go as 1 entity.

marno21

end of the road wrote: »

not really no . hiving off bits of the railway is complete nonsense for a small country. an integrated railway like we currently have is the only option. if it's to be tendered out then the lot must go as 1 entity.

Hive off the most viable bits and the company in charge of the rest goes down the toilet faster. Not a bad call

end of the road

marno21 wrote: »

Hive off the most viable bits and the company in charge of the rest goes down the toilet faster. Not a bad call

oh i agree it definitely wouldn't be a bad call if government and NTA decided it wanted rid of most of the rail network. whatever about government, the NTA i suspect aren't interested in the railway.
the problem however is most of the network is actually viable so getting rid of it would be moronic as we know.

ClovenHoof

end of the road wrote: »

not really no . hiving off bits of the railway is complete nonsense for a small country. an integrated railway like we currently have is the only option. if it's to be tendered out then the lot must go as 1 entity.

Have you been to Switzerland?

Swiss Federal Railways (SBB CFF FFS)
BLS (Bern-Lötschberg-Simplon)
SOB
RhB and MGB
Appenzeller Bahnen (AB)
Chemin de Fer Montreux Oberland Bernois (MOB)
Zentralbahn (zb)
Chemins de fer du Jura (CJ)
Berner Oberland Bahn (BOB)
Wengernalpbahn (WAB)
Jungfraubahn (JB)
Chemin de fer Martigny–Châtelard (MC)
Bergbahn Lauterbrunnen-Mürren (BLM)
Ferrovia Lugano–Ponte Tresa (FLP)
Gornergrat Bahn

All sucessful, hughly patroned and beautifully integrated despite varying geographic, social, cultural and technical differences.

YOUR ARGUMENT IS COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY INVALID

pjohnson

The NBRU really dont understand the internet. Or at least they grasp it aswell as they understand money.

end of the road

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Have you been to Switzerland?

Swiss Federal Railways (SBB CFF FFS)
BLS (Bern-Lötschberg-Simplon)
SOB
RhB and MGB
Appenzeller Bahnen (AB)
Chemin de Fer Montreux Oberland Bernois (MOB)
Zentralbahn (zb)
Chemins de fer du Jura (CJ)
Berner Oberland Bahn (BOB)
Wengernalpbahn (WAB)
Jungfraubahn (JB)
Chemin de fer Martigny–Châtelard (MC)
Bergbahn Lauterbrunnen-Mürren (BLM)
Ferrovia Lugano–Ponte Tresa (FLP)
Gornergrat Bahn

All sucessful, hughly patroned and beautifully integrated despite varying geographic, social, cultural and technical differences.

a lot more rail infrastructure then we could ever have and a bigger population.

ClovenHoof wrote: »

YOUR ARGUMENT IS COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY INVALID

no it isn't i'm afraid. we have a small mostly single track network. however our railway ends up whether tendered or not we will likely aline to the format of the uk operations.

monument

Posts deleted -- back on topic

Jamie2k9

goingnowhere wrote: »

RPA haven't got the resources any more to run projects, hence the tender for someone to do all the leg work for metro north which was previously done mostly in house

Irish Rail did some of the civil engineering work for Luas Cross City under contract for TFI so be careful what you try to restrict. Everything about the Luas was designed by Irish Rail in the first place, the RPA just had to build it.

The problem with Irish Rail is not the design but the actual running of operations.

Zebra3

LeinsterDub wrote: »

In the context of this forum what has FG privatised?

I couldn't tell you for sure, but I'm just stating their position. They'll privatise every job bar their own.

bk wrote: »

Just a reminder:
- It was FF who took Luas project off IR and created the RPA
- It was FF who created the NTA

FF has no more love for CIE/IR then FG does. The truth is all political parties think that the CIE companies and unions are a pain in the neck.

I'm fully aware that FF and FG are two sides of the one coin.