Adjudication hearing RTB - Part 4

Deemcgb

Hi Folks,

I have an adjudication hearing coming up in the next few weeks and looking for some opinions.

I was living in rented accommodation for over a year but wasn't party to the original lease. The landlord kept rolling over the lease with original housemates.

Around the time of year the lease was due to be renewed, the landlord wanted us to sign a new one. The two people I was living with wanted to move out and I told the landlord I wanted to stay. LL was happy with this but said she would increase the rent and have an inspection. LL said the rent she was charging for area was significantly less than what she should (pulling on those heartstrings).

Legally she was able to increase the rent (4%) and I agreed to the inspection. I was a bit worried as she hadn't inspected the property in years according to my housemates. The place was clean to me but same time she hadn't seen it in years.

On the day of the inspection, she turned up at the apartment, said it was in poor condition and gave me 48 hours to leave. This wasn't an option - she made a holy scene.

She was going to come back during the week whether I was there or not (I told her she couldn't do this and I had rights, I needed notice and I was going to be at work etc.). She was extremely aggressive with me and had a pal with her throwing insults.

It wasn't an option for me to stay as the two tenants I was living with had already moved out and the two new tenants couldn't move in because she refused to sign the lease. The LL already had their deposits and rent for new lease but the girls work in legal and didn't want to move in only to be turfed out.

I was scared stupid to stay alone in case she came back, she seemed extremely unstable at the inspection and I was afraid she'd throw my things out while at work. I emailed her that day saying I was leaving and found emergency accommodation. So basically I was couch surfing while my Dad kept my things.

LL returned mine and original housemates deposit to us minus a cleaning bill and did the place up looking at the receipts (paint, deep clean, new oven). I have been keeping an eye on daft but she's cute, I expect the apartment will go up after the hearing.

I suppose I'm worried about one thing, my part 4 tenancy. From the correspondence the LL refuses to believe I can rely on this. In her head she was entering into a brand new lease with me and new tenants.

I told her I was there for over a year in the property. The LL said it didn't matter and she had no agreement with me ever. I suppose I'm asking if she has a leg to stand on here as I was entering into a new lease (characterised by rent increase)?


Edit: Found correspondence from the landlord to the three of us last year just as I was moving in. The email said she prepared a new lease and had added my details (she requested my PPS etc.) but she never issued it to us and we only followed up once with her about it.

CruelCoin

I would tend to agree with the LL.

The lease was with the prior tenants, with you just subletting (?? Who were you paying rent to? Her or the former housemates?)
Their lease with the LL has/had nothing to do with you.
She's right i reckon i saying this is a brand new lease with brand new people.

davo10

This depends on whether you were a tenant or s licensee of your previous flat mates. Your flat mates were the tenants as per their rental agreement with the LL, if you moved in and gave your rent to your flat mates without even agreeing a lease with the LL, you might be there as a licensee and therefore have reduced tenancy rights.

On the other hand, if you were paying rent to the LL, you are a tenant and have a lot of rights.

godtabh

Sounds to me you where a licencee and therefore basically have no rights. By the sounds of it you werent on the old lease therefore Part 4 doesnt apply to you.

Deemcgb

CruelCoin wrote: »

I would tend to agree with the LL.

The lease was with the prior tenants, with you just subletting (?? Who were you paying rent to? Her or the former housemates?)
Their lease with the LL has/had nothing to do with you.
She's right i reckon i saying this is a brand new lease with brand new people.

It was agreed in writing between me and the LL that I would take over the previous tenants rent as he was leaving the country.

Deemcgb

davo10 wrote: »

This depends on whether you were a tenant or s licensee of your previous flat mates. Your flat mates were the tenants as per their rental agreement with the LL, if you moved in and gave your rent to your flat mates without even agreeing a lease with the LL, you might be there as a licensee and therefore have reduced tenancy rights.

On the other hand, if you were paying rent to the LL, you are a tenant and have a lot of rights.

I wasn't paying rent directly to her as she wanted the rent coming out of one account (who was one of the originals).

She knew I was taking over from the previous chap, asked for my bank details, employment history and PPS. The usual.

So I joined the year she hadn't put one in place for them.

godtabh

Doesnt make any difference. You weren't named on a lease

Graham

I wouldn't be making bets either way. Could the RTB find the agreement to takeover the rent by an existing licensee as granting the previous licensee Part 4 rights?

Deemcgb

Graham wrote: »

I wouldn't be making bets either way. Could the RTB find the agreement to takeover the rent by an existing licensee as granting the previous licensee Part 4 rights?

I wasn't a licencee though.

Housemates have prepared witness statements saying I was not and that my rent (pooled with theirs via one account) was being paid to her. They assumed I took up previous housemates position.

Edit: Found an email from the landlord saying that she was renewing the lease and was adding my details when registering it for the second year.

CruelCoin

Deemcgb wrote: »

It was agreed in writing between me and the LL that I would take over the previous tenants rent as he was leaving the country.

You gain part 4 when you yourself are the named tenant on a rental agreement for x period of time.
You were not that person, and you don't have a lease agreement in your name.

Taking over from someone else does not transfer their rights to you.

You're a brand new renter with no part 4 rights unfortunately.

godtabh

Grasping at straws OP. How much are you on the hook for?

TheChizler

CruelCoin wrote: »

You gain part 4 when you yourself are the named tenant on a rental agreement for x period of time.
You were not that person, and you don't have a lease agreement in your name.

Taking over from someone else does not transfer their rights to you.

You're a brand new renter with no part 4 rights unfortunately.

OP is living there over a year and there's no requirement for a written agreement for part IV.

CruelCoin

Deemcgb wrote: »

Housemates have prepared witness statements saying I was not and that my rent (pooled with theirs via one account) was being paid to her. They assumed I took up previous housemates position.

Assumption something something. You gave your money to them, and they transferred it on to pay their lease with the landlord. Aka subletting.

Does there exist a piece of paper with your name on it, the landlords name on it, rental amounts, dates and signatures from both?

If not, you're buggered.

TheChizler

OP could you provide a rough timeline, from when you moved in, when she first was aware of it, when she asked you for your PPS etc.?

CruelCoin

TheChizler wrote: »

OP is living there over a year and there's no requirement for a written agreement for part IV.

Irrelevant. He's subletting, not leasing.
Subletters don't get part 4, regardless of how long they're there.

CruelCoin

TheChizler wrote: »

no requirement for a written agreement for part IV.

So squatters could claim part 4? Nah brah.

Ms Doubtfire1

A rental agreement does not have yto be in writing. If OP has an email from LL stating he has taken over the lease/rent from the prior tenant that will tsand before the RTB. Don't take any BS form LL and call the RTB in the morning.

TheChizler

CruelCoin wrote: »

So squatters could claim part 4? Nah brah.

Is written word the only form of communication?

coffeyt

Just an idea but if she requested your pps number it would normally be for the reason of registering you with the prtb.
I presume the tenancy was already registered but if the other tenants were staying on last you and you were taking over from someone else she should have notified the prtb as to the change in the tenancy.
Have you checked if this was done as this would show you were a tenant since last year?

CruelCoin

TheChizler wrote: »

Is written word the only form of communication?

The only form that can be proven and relied on in court?

Yes.

GGTrek

It is so much confusion on this thread to be unbelievable.

The OP will have a very tough adjudication hearing.

The only real piece of evidence he has got that he is a tenant is the email, the sworn testimony of the two previous tenants will count nothing against the bank statements showing that he did not pay rent directly to landlord (actually it will be detrimental to the OP case).

From the email it might be construed that a lease was effective and from the date of the email or the commencement date stated in the email he might be considered a tenant, however when was the email sent? when is the commencement date stated in the email? More than 6 months ago? I doubt it, which means that even if the OP can be considered a tenant (he might actually have a chance), he can get a relatively low compensation maybe corresponding to the 28 days no reason termination notice.

However without actually seeing the previous lease and the emails exchanged there is actually no way to guess the outcome of the case.

RTB lease registration can be done at any time by the landlord, just that after 30 days he/she pays a 90 eur penalty. The RTB adjudicator does not even look at it, nor do the RTB officers when alleged tenant brings a case.

GGTrek

Forgot to add a fundamental piece, if in the email it is written a commencement date that is after the landlord decided not to grant the lease, the case is pretty much lost.

Deemcgb

TheChizler wrote: »

OP could you provide a rough timeline, from when you moved in, when she first was aware of it, when she asked you for your PPS etc.?

Hi there,

So my three pals all signed a lease in June 2015. They signed a 12 month lease.

One of the lads wanted to move out June 2016 (we'll call him Shane). They contacted the LL in May 2016 and told her I wanted in.

In May 2016 they started copying me into emails with her and she said she needed to return Shane's deposit and take a deposit off me. She asked me for my PPS number and work references in May 2016 and I supplied. She said she would register with RTB and issue a new lease - we never received one from her.

April 2017 - the lads want to move out with their GFs. I ask her can I stay on. She says yes.

June 2017 - the lads move out, then she basically evicts me with zero notice.


I just want to know - if I was entitled to a notice period. I cannot see how she can throw me out over a weekend and I have never heard of this before.

Deemcgb

coffeyt wrote: »

Just an idea but if she requested your pps number it would normally be for the reason of registering you with the prtb.
I presume the tenancy was already registered but if the other tenants were staying on last you and you were taking over from someone else she should have notified the prtb as to the change in the tenancy.
Have you checked if this was done as this would show you were a tenant since last year?

That's a great idea. She could have registered me with the two lads last year maybe? That's what she said she was going to do in the email and I don't know if she did. I tried to ask them about this before but I think there was data protection issues.

Graham

GGTrek wrote: »

Forgot to add a fundamental piece, if in the email it is written a commencement date that is after the landlord decided not to grant the lease, the case is pretty much lost.

Only if the OP hadn't already acquired Part 4 rights.

Michael D Not Higgins

Deemcgb wrote: »

In May 2016 they started copying me into emails with her and she said she needed to return Shane's deposit and take a deposit off me. She asked me for my PPS number and work references in May 2016 and I supplied. She said she would register with RTB and issue a new lease - we never received one from her.

This right here is what will save you. Even if you were initially a licensee, this communication prove the landlord accepted you as a multiple tenant, as per section 50 (7) and (8) of the RTA.

Deemcgb

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

This right here is what will save you. Even if you were initially a licensee, this communication prove the landlord accepted you as a multiple tenant, as per section 50 (7) and (8) of the RTA.

Ah thanks lad!

Deemcgb

GGTrek wrote: »

It is so much confusion on this thread to be unbelievable.

The OP will have a very tough adjudication hearing.

The only real piece of evidence he has got that he is a tenant is the email, the sworn testimony of the two previous tenants will count nothing against the bank statements showing that he did not pay rent directly to landlord (actually it will be detrimental to the OP case).

From the email it might be construed that a lease was effective and from the date of the email or the commencement date stated in the email he might be considered a tenant, however when was the email sent? when is the commencement date stated in the email? More than 6 months ago? I doubt it, which means that even if the OP can be considered a tenant (he might actually have a chance), he can get a relatively low compensation maybe corresponding to the 28 days no reason termination notice.

However without actually seeing the previous lease and the emails exchanged there is actually no way to guess the outcome of the case.

RTB lease registration can be done at any time by the landlord, just that after 30 days he/she pays a 90 eur penalty. The RTB adjudicator does not even look at it, nor do the RTB officers when alleged tenant brings a case.

I asked the lad who I replaced to flick me on the email where she was crying about only wanting to deal with one person in terms of money (before my time). The lad who had the same bank as her so she'd get it immediately.

Regardless, she took my money and rent for my new tenancy from me a few days before the inspection and signing of brand new lease. Even after throwing me out I was still looking for the money back! It's a messy one alright!

Deemcgb

CruelCoin wrote: »

The only form that can be proven and relied on in court?

Yes.

What's the definition of an oral agreement so?

davindub

Deemcgb wrote: »

It was agreed in writing between me and the LL that I would take over the previous tenants rent as he was leaving the country.

Thats all you need. You are a tenant.

GGTrek

Deemcgb wrote: »

GGTrek wrote: »

It is so much confusion on this thread to be unbelievable.

The OP will have a very tough adjudication hearing.

The only real piece of evidence he has got that he is a tenant is the email, the sworn testimony of the two previous tenants will count nothing against the bank statements showing that he did not pay rent directly to landlord (actually it will be detrimental to the OP case).

From the email it might be construed that a lease was effective and from the date of the email or the commencement date stated in the email he might be considered a tenant, however when was the email sent? when is the commencement date stated in the email? More than 6 months ago? I doubt it, which means that even if the OP can be considered a tenant (he might actually have a chance), he can get a relatively low compensation maybe corresponding to the 28 days no reason termination notice.

However without actually seeing the previous lease and the emails exchanged there is actually no way to guess the outcome of the case.

RTB lease registration can be done at any time by the landlord, just that after 30 days he/she pays a 90 eur penalty. The RTB adjudicator does not even look at it, nor do the RTB officers when alleged tenant brings a case.

I asked the lad who I replaced to flick me on the email where she was crying about only wanting to deal with one person in terms of money (before my time). The lad who had the same bank as her so she'd get it immediately.

Regardless, she took my money and rent for my new tenancy from me a few days before the inspection and signing of brand new lease. Even after throwing me out I was still looking for the money back! It's a messy one alright!

A lot of info was missing in your initial posts. Your exchanges of email go back to more than one year and she actually received money directly from you. I believe you have a good case for unlawful eviction. Which means the return of all the money paid + a substantial additional compensation. Send all possible written communication and proof of payment to the RTB case officer at least 5 working days before the hearing otherwise you risk having your evidence rejected, prepare a detailed list of events in chronological order in your written submission referring to the evidence and then present it again at the hearing and be ready to answer the questions from the adjudicator. Witnesses should corroborate the written evidence, prepare them throug Q&A beforehand, if they say something that goes against the written evidence this will be very detrimental for your case. Best of luck

TheChizler

GGTrek wrote: »

A lot of info was missing in your initial posts.

Better to ask for clarification rather than make assumptions and potentially send someone down the wrong path.

OP hold on to those emails (print and back up) as advised and write down the timeline so you can refer to anything you need instantly. I'd also print out your bank statements. Sounds very encouraging, best of luck and I hope you're happy with the outcome.

Deemcgb

GGTrek wrote: »

A lot of info was missing in your initial posts. Your exchanges of email go back to more than one year and she actually received money directly from you. I believe you have a good case for unlawful eviction. Which means the return of all the money paid + a substantial additional compensation. Send all possible written communication and proof of payment to the RTB case officer at least 5 working days before the hearing otherwise you risk having your evidence rejected, prepare a detailed list of events in chronological order in your written submission referring to the evidence and then present it again at the hearing and be ready to answer the questions from the adjudicator. Witnesses should corroborate the written evidence, prepare them throug Q&A beforehand, if they say something that goes against the written evidence this will be very detrimental for your case. Best of luck

Thanks very much. I suppose I did leave out a lot of information - the more questions people asked the more I went digging through emails and actually re read the lease. So everyone in this thread helped me out a lot.

Hopefully all goes well but we'll see what happens. I'd be happy enough if she just knows that she can't do that to people and future tenants.

Deemcgb

TheChizler wrote: »

Better to ask for clarification rather than make assumptions and potentially send someone down the wrong path.

OP hold on to those emails (print and back up) and write down the timeline so you can refer to anything you need instantly. I'd also print out your bank statements. Sounds very encouraging, best of luck and I hope you're happy with the outcome.

Thanks so much - I did keep back a lot of information but you all helped me.

I'll definitely do up a timeline. Thanks for all the help. I'll let you know the outcome as it comes out!

Deemcgb

Determination back - adjudicator found that it was a part 4 tenancy and I was illegally evicted (rather than given invalid notice).

On the day that landlord showed up and still tried to say I was a sub tenant and I had no right to be in the apartment. Her argument was that she never received rent from me and I had not signed a lease.

Even after I provided the landlord (she didn't have copies of her own) and the adjudicator the correspondence where she assigns me the tenancy, she still tried to say I was a sub tenant and she didn't know who I was.

It became so painfully awkward the adjudicator had to interrupt. After this the LL said the adjudicator was wrong and she believed the law was wrong. I couldn't believe what I was listening to and such a massive waste of my time.

Anyway, I expect the LL will appeal but I hope she sees sense and gives up the renting gig because people like this should not be renting properties.

Michael D Not Higgins

Excellent news!

The_Conductor

I'm thrilled to hear your news.
I hope you've managed to find somewhere in the intervening period of time- couch surfing etc- is not sustainable for a protracted period of time.

Well done- I hope the adjudicator makes a reasonable finding in your favour, in light of the circumstances of the illegal eviction.

TheChizler

Delighted this has worked out in your favour. Hopefully this will be the kick she needs to act as a responsible landlord, though it does sound unlikely that she'll learn from this. Well done for keeping at it.