Phonecall from landlord - 20% increase

cwgatling

Hi,

We've been renting in Dublin in a 2 bed apartment for the last 3.5 years. Good relations with the landlord and the rent hasn't gone up since we moved in.

Got a phone call from them today and they apparently have a family member who wants to move in and pay a lot more than we pay. 1800 as opposed to 1300.
She said if we can go to 1550 or 1600 we can stay on.

Do we have any options bar pay up? Can't really afford it but it's probably what we'd end up paying if we had to move.

Thanks.

Michael D Not Higgins

They're strong-arming you. It's a veiled threat of notice of termination for use by a family member if you don't agree.

You have two options.
1. Pay the increase.

2. Ask for a valid notice of rent increase. You risk getting the notice of termination instead.

BrokenArrows

If you actually get notice to move out due to a family member requiring the property then you must received in writing:

-Property needed for landlord/family member

The landlord must provide a signed statutory declaration that they require the property back for their own or a family members use. If for a family member the notice must identify the person and their relationship to the landlord. The notice must also inform you that should the property become available to rent again within 6 months then, providing you keep the landlord updated with your contact details you are offered the tenancy back.

If this happens then you should follow up on whether this person is actually living there after you move out and whether they are still living there after 6 months.

LuckyLloyd

Play hard ball. Say you're not stepping outside the rules and will await a valid communication of rent increase or termination. If you accept this, they'll come back ringing on the door for more money with the same threat next year.

bmwguy

So he will charge you less than a family member? All sorts of fishy.

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This post has been deleted.

Browney7

Anyway of getting a new one year lease as part of any "illegal" rent increase? You could pay the increased rent until you have a new part four and raise an RTB complaint that you've been paying too high a rent in contravention of RPZ legislation

InTheTrees

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

That would be my understanding too. You can get a tenant to move if the property is needed by a family member but it doesn't mean you can have some kind of bidding war on the rent increase.

torqtorq

cwgatling wrote: »

Hi,

We've been renting in Dublin in a 2 bed apartment for the last 3.5 years. Good relations with the landlord and the rent hasn't gone up since we moved in.

Got a phone call from them today and they apparently have a family member who wants to move in and pay a lot more than we pay. 1800 as opposed to 1300.
She said if we can go to 1550 or 1600 we can stay on.

Do we have any options bar pay up? Can't really afford it but it's probably what we'd end up paying if we had to move.

Thanks.

They are trying to play you without putting anything into writing.

If you have an email for your landlord you could write to them with the details of your conversation with date and time and ask them to confirm that you have got the jest of the conversation correct.

At this early stage you should give no indication of your thoughts on their proposal.

rawn

Refuse to discuss anything over the phone, respond only in emails. If they're pulling something legally shifty they'll not put it in writing.

Pkiernan

Pay the increase until your next Part IV tenancy kicks in.
Then report landlords activity to the RTB.
You'll get your money back and have security if tenure.

rawn

Pkiernan wrote:

Pay the increase until your next Part IV tenancy kicks in. Then report landlords activity to the RTB. You'll get your money back and have security if tenure.

And one royally pissed off LL!

Don't agree to it, at all. Insist on all of your interactions in writing "for your own records". Remind them if they DO have a family member move in and paying rent it can only be 4% more than what you're paying. It won't be worth the hassle.

Browney7

rawn wrote: »

And one royally pissed off LL!

Don't agree to it, at all. Insist on all of your interactions in writing "for your own records". Remind them if they DO have a family member move in and paying rent it can only be 4% more than what you're paying. It won't be worth the hassle.

Not if you do it when you plan on leaving anyways. Could harm future references alright.

If the op wants to stay put they need to avoid the LL serving a valid notice of termination for a family member as they are out then and pretty much no recourse. LL is trying to flout the law (whether or not people agree it is the law)

The OP could ignore any calls and see what they get in writing but suspect it would be a valid termination letter. Obviously no right or wrong answers but if I was OP I'd be looking for a fixed duration to stay for at least 12 months in return and mention no RPZ legislation or the likes

cwgatling

Thanks all for the advice, much appreciated.

I've mailed and asked for confirmation of the details of the conversation, think that's a very good start. Last thing we want is a termination letter so the 4% law will likely just be a way of bargaining with them.

davo10

You asked for the conversation in "writing"?, expect a letter of termination citing the need of property for a relative. The LL played this nicely, you have now shown your hand. If you wanted to stay at the 4%, you should have agreed the 20% and insisted on a term contract, then gone to the RTB to have it reduced. By emailing him looking for evidence of the conversation, he now realises you won't agree to his proposal so it's time for you to start house hunting.

I doubt any landlord gives consideration to the 4% limit when renting to a family member.

Lux23

There is no family member, come on!

P. Breathnach

I suspect "for the use of a family member" does not include the idea of renting the property to a relative. It might be worth asking the RTB for guidance on that point.

seamus

Terminating the residency only applies where the landlord requires the property for themselves or a family member. I think it's OK if the family member pays rent, but if the landlord is willing to let you stay on if you pay more, then they clearly don't require the property for the family member. Otherwise the termination would be non-negotiable.

Download an app to record phone calls on your phone. Then ring the landlord back to clarify what he wants. Effectively try and get him to repeat what he has already told you - that a relative is willing to pay more but he'll let you stay on if you pay more. Use the app to record the conversation. This is legal.

Refuse the increase and if he provides a notice of termination, valid or not, you open a dispute with the RTB, providing the phone call as evidence that the landlord does not require the property for a relative's use and is instead trying to strongarm you into an increase.

rawn

seamus wrote: »

Terminating the residency only applies where the landlord requires the property for themselves or a family member. I think it's OK if the family member pays rent, but if the landlord is willing to let you stay on if you pay more, then they clearly don't require the property for the family member. Otherwise the termination would be non-negotiable.

Download an app to record phone calls on your phone. Then ring the landlord back to clarify what he wants. Effectively try and get him to repeat what he has already told you - that a relative is willing to pay more but he'll let you stay on if you pay more. Use the app to record the conversation. This is legal.

Refuse the increase and if he provides a notice of termination, valid or not, you open a dispute with the RTB, providing the phone call as evidence that the landlord does not require the property for a relative's use and is instead trying to strongarm you into an increase.

If you record a phone call with the intent to use it was evidence then the LL needs to be told he's being recorded. Communicate in WRITING!

davo10

rawn wrote: »

If you record a phone call with the intent to use it was evidence then the LL needs to be told he's being recorded. Communicate in WRITING!

In Ireland, the consent of only one party, the op, is required to record a phone call.

Anyway, that ship sailed when the op asked for the details in writing, the LL is now "on" to the op, unless the LL is a complete idiot there will be no more discussion about this.

cwgatling

Thanks again for the input.

If they're "on" to me they're playing the long game. They confirmed everything we discussed on the phone and said in black and white (via email) that it's money they want and if we don't pay enough the relative will be moving in in Jan.

I suggested backdating the maximum allowable increase of 4% for the previous years to bring us to 1462 p.m. and starting that from 2018.

If I can get 12-18 months at that price I will take it. I mean relative or no, they can just say at any point that we have 3 months notice and we're out right? Haven't signed a lease since we moved in.

Moonbeam

What is the market rent for the apt in that area?
If it is the higher amount then you may not have much choice if it is lower then you are paying then point that out to him.

spaceHopper

cwgatling wrote: »

Thanks again for the input.

If they're "on" to me they're playing the long game. They confirmed everything we discussed on the phone and said in black and white (via email) that it's money they want and if we don't pay enough the relative will be moving in in Jan.

I suggested backdating the maximum allowable increase of 4% for the previous years to bring us to 1462 p.m. and starting that from 2018.

If I can get 12-18 months at that price I will take it. I mean relative or no, they can just say at any point that we have 3 months notice and we're out right? Haven't signed a lease since we moved in.

No you are entitled to a lease and if none is signed you still have the same part 4 rights, your case is much stronger if you've been paying into their back account. Effectively the verbal agreement counts as a lease.

davindub

cwgatling wrote: »

Thanks again for the input.

If they're "on" to me they're playing the long game. They confirmed everything we discussed on the phone and said in black and white (via email) that it's money they want and if we don't pay enough the relative will be moving in in Jan.

I suggested backdating the maximum allowable increase of 4% for the previous years to bring us to 1462 p.m. and starting that from 2018.

If I can get 12-18 months at that price I will take it. I mean relative or no, they can just say at any point that we have 3 months notice and we're out right? Haven't signed a lease since we moved in.

Technically it's a rent review and you can appeal now. It's hard to remove an tenant and the landlord is either bluffing or an idiot.

I would recommend you contact threshold who will help with this. I would even try send it to the minister of housing to highlight this.

Treepole

rawn wrote: »

If you record a phone call with the intent to use it was evidence then the LL needs to be told he's being recorded. Communicate in WRITING!

This is the problem with seeking advice on forums. Too many people trying to sound authoritative without actually any clue at all.

TheChizler

Moonbeam wrote: »

What is the market rent for the apt in that area?
If it is the higher amount then you may not have much choice if it is lower then you are paying then point that out to him.

OP lives in Dublin so increase is capped at 4%.

Caliden

rawn wrote: »

If you record a phone call with the intent to use it was evidence then the LL needs to be told he's being recorded. Communicate in WRITING!

What part of the law says that? Nonsense.


You can't record a third party conversation but you most certainly can record your own conversation without having to let the other party know.

You're confusing what most companies have setup, i.e. 'this call may be recorded for training purposes', as the agent on the other end of the phone doesn't make the recording themselves.

rawn

Caliden wrote:

You're confusing what most companies have setup, i.e. 'this call may be recorded for training purposes', as the agent on the other end of the phone doesn't make the recording themselves.

I'm not confusing it with that at all, and if I'm wrong I hold my hands up and apologize! I'm going by the many, many discussions on the subject that I've seen on the legal forum here about recording people without their permission to use against them.

I stand by what I said about communicating everything in writing. Forget about the landlord "knowing he's on to him", the OP now had a paper trail of the LL trying to implement an illegal increase. This is a good thing.

Snipp

cwgatling wrote: »

Hi,

We've been renting in Dublin in a 2 bed apartment for the last 3.5 years. Good relations with the landlord and the rent hasn't gone up since we moved in.

Got a phone call from them today and they apparently have a family member who wants to move in and pay a lot more than we pay. 1800 as opposed to 1300.
She said if we can go to 1550 or 1600 we can stay on.

Do we have any options bar pay up? Can't really afford it but it's probably what we'd end up paying if we had to move.

Thanks.

If it is a family member moving in, proof needs to be provided and co-signed by a solicitor etc. So ask for proof, and if provided, move or pay the increase.

Ms Doubtfire1

rawn wrote: »

seamus wrote: »

Terminating the residency only applies where the landlord requires the property for themselves or a family member. I think it's OK if the family member pays rent, but if the landlord is willing to let you stay on if you pay more, then they clearly don't require the property for the family member. Otherwise the termination would be non-negotiable.

Download an app to record phone calls on your phone. Then ring the landlord back to clarify what he wants. Effectively try and get him to repeat what he has already told you - that a relative is willing to pay more but he'll let you stay on if you pay more. Use the app to record the conversation. This is legal.

Refuse the increase and if he provides a notice of termination, valid or not, you open a dispute with the RTB, providing the phone call as evidence that the landlord does not require the property for a relative's use and is instead trying to strongarm you into an increase.

If you record a phone call with the intent to use it was evidence then the LL needs to be told he's being recorded. Communicate in WRITING!

wrong. In ireland only one party has to agree to a recording if they are party to the conversation

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/q-a-what-are-the-legal-implications-1.1740070

Ms Doubtfire1

Snipp wrote: »

cwgatling wrote: »

Hi,

We've been renting in Dublin in a 2 bed apartment for the last 3.5 years. Good relations with the landlord and the rent hasn't gone up since we moved in.

Got a phone call from them today and they apparently have a family member who wants to move in and pay a lot more than we pay. 1800 as opposed to 1300.
She said if we can go to 1550 or 1600 we can stay on.

Do we have any options bar pay up? Can't really afford it but it's probably what we'd end up paying if we had to move.

Thanks.

If it is a family member moving in, proof needs to be provided and co-signed by a solicitor etc. So ask for proof, and if provided, move or pay the increase.

no dont. LL can not increase more than 4% not to you and not to the next tenant. Thats illegal. Call the RTB

cwgatling

davindub wrote: »

Technically it's a rent review and you can appeal now. It's hard to remove an tenant and the landlord is either bluffing or an idiot.

The more I deal with this person the more I suspect the latter is correct.

The only way they'd accept my offer was if we started paying as of next month. Again, totally illegal. We weighed it up and asked for an 18 month lease at that price which they happily agreed to, so that's what we're going with.

In answer to whether the rent is in line with other properties in the area - it's cheaper, but the place is shabby enough. We like it though, happy with the outcome somehow!

Thanks again for all the replies and advice.

Caliden

rawn wrote: »

I'm not confusing it with that at all, and if I'm wrong I hold my hands up and apologize! I'm going by the many, many discussions on the subject that I've seen on the legal forum here about recording people without their permission to use against them.

I stand by what I said about communicating everything in writing. Forget about the landlord "knowing he's on to him", the OP now had a paper trail of the LL trying to implement an illegal increase. This is a good thing.

I'll agree that correspondence in writing is much much better as there could be issues proving the person on the recording is indeed the landlord should the recording be used.

Michael D Not Higgins

Sounds like they're well behind on the legislation. Glad you worked out a solution, even though you'd be totally justified to dispute it with the RTB, it doesn't exactly breed a nice working relationship with your landlord.