Buy two pub licenses to get one

Ubbquittious

Is it true that there is some peculiar rule that says if you can't source a pub license from someone near you, you'll have to source two of them from elsewhere and merge them into one. So by law there is a constant downward pressure on the number of pub licenses in the country since no new licenses are being created by the government?

How did this situation come about? When was the last brand new virgin pub license created by the government?

What does a pub license look like? Are they papyrus scrolls with elaborate calligraphy and a red wax stamp from Saorstat Eireann?

odyssey06

Clontarf Baths just transfetted a licence from outside Dublin. Single one from Kildare I think ... dont recall any mention of needing two.

The Buster

Ubbquittious wrote: »

Is it true that there is some peculiar rule that says if you can't source a pub license from someone near you, you'll have to source two of them from elsewhere and merge them into one. So by law there is a constant downward pressure on the number of pub licenses in the country since no new licenses are being created by the government?

How did this situation come about? When was the last brand new virgin pub license created by the government?

What does a pub license look like? Are they papyrus scrolls with elaborate calligraphy and a red wax stamp from Saorstat Eireann?

I think there used be s six day license. If you bought two of these you could convert it to a seven day. Not so common anymore as doubt there are may six day ones still in existence

L1011

From 1902 to 2000 you had to extinguish multiple licences to generate a new one in a different licencing area. It's been 1=1 for some time now.

All remaining 6 day and early closing licences were allowed convert to full in about 2002 - not all did. The Four Courts has a 6 day licence for it's cafe still for instance.

The only licences that dont require extinguishing another are in the special classes, so there were multiple created for airport bars in the past year even. The Convention Centre got one in a special class also.

Pre 1902 they were in theory available on demand if you had the cash and character references but often it was nowhere near that easy. Lots of areas had effective off licences with dodgy hidden seating areas as a result as the off sales licence was easier to get

L1011

odyssey06 wrote: »

Clontarf Baths just transfetted a licence from outside Dublin. Single one from Kildare I think ... dont recall any mention of needing two.

Naas *road*, county Dublin in that case.

dr.fuzzenstein

Licenses can only created in a secret ceremony in the chamber of Newgrange by a group of druids that have been dead for 2000 years. They can only be resurrected by the Ghost of Finn MacCool when all the planets are in perfect alignment and there is a blood moon in the sky at the same time. The license is indeed a scroll of papyrus and the ink is made with the blood of a virgin that has to be sacrificed to make the license valid.
But don't think it's that easy! In order to be eligible for this, you have to go down to the Department of Health and challenge their champion to a fight to the death. Only then will you be allowed in the innermost chamber where a council of elders will ask you a series of riddles, each more difficult than the last. One wrong answer and you will be drowned in a vat of Pernod.
And that is how pub licenses are created in Ireland.

BeerNut

Ubbquittious wrote: »

When was the last brand new virgin pub license created by the government?

2010, for the Convention Centre. Prior to that, 1983, for the National Concert Hall. Further to the procedure outlined above by dr.fuzzenstein, a virgin pub licence requires an act of the Oireachtas.

loyatemu

presumably as there are far fewer pubs nationwide now than 100 years ago there are still quite a few spare licenses floating about?

Ubbquittious

loyatemu wrote: »

presumably as there are far fewer pubs nationwide now than 100 years ago there are still quite a few spare licenses floating about?

I'm not sure how long a license can lay unused before it's magic wears off, but I do recall hearing about a pub way up in the mountains near Holycross opening 1-2 days a week "to keep his license". Maybe there is a form of blood magic that can keep a license in suspended animation for some time but I can't imagine it being easier than just pouring a few drinks for people a few days a week.

L1011

Ubbquittious wrote: »

I'm not sure how long a license can lay unused before it's magic wears off, but I do recall hearing about a pub way up in the mountains near Holycross opening 1-2 days a week "to keep his license". Maybe there is a form of blood magic that can keep a license in suspended animation for some time but I can't imagine it being easier than just pouring a few drinks for people a few days a week.

Licences need to be renewed annually, they expire on the 30th of September each year as far as I know (certainly the case in Dublin)

A licence can be left unrenewed for 5 years before it lapses.

There are pubs with renewed current licences which have not opened in a decade, maybe two for a few. How exactly this works considering the fire officer has to give an OK for it and some of the buildings are not quite fire safety compliant anymore I don't know!

The huge growth in off-licences has used up most of the stock of "spare" licences - easiest way to get a full beer/wine/spirits off-sales licence is to surrender a pub licence.

RasTa

I heard Token got a new license

L1011

RasTa wrote: »

I heard Token got a new license

They would have provided a licence to extinguish.

The papers occasionally give details on where they came from - Clontarf Baths is extinguishing Browns' Barn; the hotel above Tesco in Temple Bar extinguished the Edenmore House.

Ubbquittious

Is it true that once a license has been sold from a pub that building is condemned to never be a pub again for all eternity? If so, can it be got around by knocking the building and rebuilding or is the condemnation bound to the land itself?

BeerNut

RasTa wrote: »

I heard Token got a new license

I think Token has had a couple of different types of licence in its short existence. The Revenue licences list for July shows them having a wine-only licence but I'm sure that's out of date. If they have a full pub licence now it would have to have been transferred.

Geuze

loyatemu wrote: »

presumably as there are far fewer pubs nationwide now than 100 years ago there are still quite a few spare licenses floating about?

Yes, but any new supermarket off-licence requires an existing licence to be transferred.

There are over 100 Lidl and Aldi stores in the last ten years.

L1011

Ubbquittious wrote: »

Is it true that once a license has been sold from a pub that building is condemned to never be a pub again for all eternity? If so, can it be got around by knocking the building and rebuilding or is the condemnation bound to the land itself?

The building cannot be used again as a pub, I'm not sure about the land as the licence applies to the building - if you get an extension you need to get this added.

I've been told you can very expensively work around the prohibition by transferring a licence to the adjoining building and slowly creeping back in. No way of knowing if that's true; but there are a few cases in Dublin where there were once two licences for adjoining pubs and now there's one. If transferring the 'spare' away killed the building forever and stopped that workaround I don't see how that could be the case.

loyatemu

you need planning permission to change a building to a pub, presumably if you got planning and had a license from somewhere, the fact that it had been a pub at some point in the past wouldn't prevent it from becoming one again.

L1011

loyatemu wrote: »

you need planning permission to change a building to a pub, presumably if you got planning and had a license from somewhere, the fact that it had been a pub at some point in the past wouldn't prevent it from becoming one again.

Some element of our byzantine licencing law prevents or prevented a premises where the licence had been extinguished from getting another one. This may have been overturned, and my head hurts even looking for it!

jasper100

Ubbquittious wrote: »

What does a pub license look like?

Its printed on a revenue letterhead. It looks like any other revenue document. Boring A4.

jasper100

L1011 wrote: »

How exactly this works considering the fire officer has to give an OK for it and some of the buildings are not quite fire safety compliant anymore I don't know!

You sign a declaration before the court that the building will not be opened to the public until you have a written approval from the fire officer.

Victor

BeerNut wrote: »

2010, for the Convention Centre. Prior to that, 1983, for the National Concert Hall. Further to the procedure outlined above by dr.fuzzenstein, a virgin pub licence requires an act of the Oireachtas.

Can't new licences be created in areas where there has been an increase in population. I'm sure I've heard of at least one created in this way.

BeerNut

Victor wrote: »

Can't new licences be created in areas where there has been an increase in population. I'm sure I've heard of at leas one created in this way.

Nope. I'd be interested in any reference to that you have. It would make Dublin's beer scene a lot more interesting if it were true. Every new housing development over a certain size being entitled to a pub is a great idea.

thesandeman

Victor wrote: »

Can't new licences be created in areas where there has been an increase in population. I'm sure I've heard of at leas one created in this way.

You're thinking of chemists.

If somebody can get planning permission for a pub in a new area and transfer a license that's ok.

L1011

thesandeman wrote: »

You're thinking of chemists.

And pre-2003 at that I think!

oblivious

BeerNut wrote: »

I think Token has had a couple of different types of licence in its short existence. The Revenue licences list for July shows them having a wine-only licence but I'm sure that's out of date. If they have a full pub licence now it would have to have been transferred.

I wounder how they got away with that, their own web site clearly shows people drinker beer on a pub/bar style format

BeerNut

oblivious wrote: »

I wounder how they got away with that, their own web site clearly shows people drinker beer on a pub/bar style format

They used to have a dubious arrangement where they wouldn't serve you a beer over the bar, they'd leave it on a table which you had to pick it up from. I guess that's some sort of restaurant licence because a wine on-licence wouldn't cover it. But that arrangement has changed now too.

L1011

The authorities have been quite tolerant of that alternate view on a restaurant licence before. I know of other premises doing it and Planet Hollywood was a notable one that's now gone - Dandelion transferred in a pub licence.

Once there's all drinks are ordered from wait staff *and* most of the people are or were eating it seems to be accepted.

Token explicitly said they were opening as a restaurant and then a few weeks later said they'd got their pub licence on their Facebook page.

jasper100

I was in Tesco yesterday and they had their licence framed on the wall in the off licence section if anybody wants to see what they look like.

Pubs are also obliged to do this but often put them in awkward places.

BionicRasher

How much do licences sell for?

I could be wrong but we had a family business years back and I seem to remember my father saying we sold the license to a supermarket in Donegal for a sizeable sum. This was back in 2002.

L1011

BionicRasher wrote: »

How much do licences sell for?

I could be wrong but we had a family business years back and I seem to remember my father saying we sold the license to a supermarket in Donegal for a sizeable sum. This was back in 2002.

Morriseys Auctioneers give a year end average (or even prices over the course of a year) in their reports. They state 60k by end of 2016; up slightly. The highest they got after deregulation was about 180k

Pre-deregulation, a nearby licence in D2/D4 could cost the guts of a million.