FGA RESULTS ON A WARMFLOW

TECH85

So here are results from a warmflow 90/120 bluebird kabin pak. Standard effeciency boiler 2004 , in good condition . rdb burner. New dafoss 1.00 .60'S nozzle.

In the manufactuers instructions it says 8 bar pump pressure , i set it a little bit less than that and adjusted air to suit until it was running sweet.

Heres some results printed during the service. Which do ye think looks best , thay are all pretty similar..
Anton sprint evo 3 fga used..

Cheers

K.Flyer

Ticket one and two look fine, just with the standard efficiency boiler you should have changed the efficiency setting on the analyser from Net to Gross.
And remember to Always do a smoke test before using your analyser.

TECH85

Yes should hav been gross..
Smoke test was as good as invisible on the test paper so obviously 0 on chart , So all good there..
Thanks

Wearb

Make sure to do your final test with Kabin door fitted. Write up the fact that it's a wheel-head type fire valve. Be sure that that is a non opening window beside the flue. Go gently through faults (if any) with customer and ask them to keep them in mind when requesting the next service. Better still seek permission to send them a text or call to remind them when its next due for service.
A service always pays for itself in efficient running, helping to prevent breakdown and prolonging the life of the boiler. (Look at how well your one looks...at least from the outside)

JamesM

Don't go too low with the oil pressure. Things can look a lot different on a cold January morning. Even with kero the flame can float away when the temperature of the oil drops, during a cold spell - if the pressure is set too low.
Jim.

DGOBS

First and last FGA are over firing. Flue gas is too hot, so boiler is unable to take the input.

jimf

would agree with james m lot more dense air could easily make it overaired


theres a riello chart for setting up co2 at different ambient temps

tony probably has it to hand I have it somewhere but where

TECH85

Thanks for comments lads ..

@jimf , as you mention , i think i have one somewhere but cant find it ..
sooo many books and manuals etc its impossible to keep track of everything !!

jimf

http://www.rielloburners.co.uk/support/faq

its on this under the rdb burner faq section

on hindsight I wouldn't apply it to a certain upside down boiler hmmmm

agusta

TECH85 wrote: »

So here are results from a warmflow 90/120 bluebird kabin pak. Standard effeciency boiler 2004 , in good condition . rdb burner. New dafoss 1.00 .60'S nozzle.

In the manufactuers instructions it says 8 bar pump pressure , i set it a little bit less than that and adjusted air to suit until it was running sweet.

Heres some results printed during the service. Which do ye think looks best , thay are all pretty similar..
Anton sprint evo 3 fga used..

Cheers

Just on another point. In the first picture the fire valve wheel head is in the closed position,Maybe you just adjusted the fire valve to this position while servicing,If not its a problem.The reillo flexible hose looks out of date.

TECH85

Thanks for the comments lads..
I have since changed the flexi and a few other bits , and done another fga test.

Results below

On the MI booklet it says NFGT ( max output ) •C 220.

This is burning alot hotter obviously, just wondering should i change down to a .85 nozzle maybe ? What do ye think , might help with lower fuel consumption also ?

Ta

DGOBS

What state are the baffles in? if the metal is brittle and corroded, then this may explain the lower takeup for heat.\

I find all to few engineers pay all to little attention to the flue gas temperature, if the appliance max flue temp should be 220ºC, if exceeding this, your not getting the most out of the fuel your burning. Derating slightly maybe the only option for an older appliance, baffle wear and boiler cleanliness is a big contributor.

Wearb

What is the boiler stat set at ?

TECH85

DGOBS wrote: »

What state are the baffles in? if the metal is brittle and corroded, then this may explain the lower takeup for heat.\

I find all to few engineers pay all to little attention to the flue gas temperature, if the appliance max flue temp should be 220ºC, if exceeding this, your not getting the most out of the fuel your burning. Derating slightly maybe the only option for an older appliance, baffle wear and boiler cleanliness is a big contributor.

Hey DGOBS
The boiler chamber is actually surprisingly mint !!
Baffles all perfect , not gone out of shape or sagging or anything like that ! All in right positions etc ..
Base insulation in good condition.
Got a good clean everything wirebrushed.

I think the rest of the fga results are pretty good do you agree??
Its jus the temp being high is whats bothering me !!
Results taken from the flue after 20 mins running all zones opened and calling for heat , front door on boiler.
Obviously i have to take the front door off and then replace after each adjustment , but even with slight adjustments either way on the air it throes off the figures you be aiming for .!!
Those results are the best that I achieved, which brings me back to thinking would .85 lower the temp to around the 220 mark , as in more heat getting transfered out in exchange to heat water !?

TECH85

Wearb wrote: »

What is the boiler stat set at ?

Wearb , its the 1 - 5 stat.
I was adjusting it slightly, this is current setting ..

TECH85

Pic wont upload for some reason !
Zoom on the original pic

Wearb

TECH85 wrote: »

Pic wont upload for some reason !
Zoom on the original pic

Ok. Mid position.
We are talking here about settings that should be aimed for. For various reasons temperatures can climb. With a boiler as clean and good condition as yours, you should be getting very close to MI's.
As dgobs said, not enough attention is paid to temperature. In an undamaged boiler, high fgt can be a sign of poor cleaning or poor setup.
The fact that you are interested in these things will means that you will strive to get it correct. For a good service customers don't mind paying, so long as you go through the work sheet with them, explaining what the readings mean and that it will save them fuel, help prevent breakdowns and prolong the life of the appliance. All very important.

DGOBS

Also, check the correct head is on the burner for the boiler, nozzle is the correct spray pattern and angle (not just size)
Remember, throughput of an S pattern nozzle is different to a ES for example (look at the KGH)

DGOBS

Also, on the cover on.off for adjusting air setting, usually set the air 0.5% too high (6% on that boiler) should reduce by about 0.5% when you replace the case and let it settle. (not adjusting for ambient outside temperature on this example)

TECH85

Cheers boys

The nozzle is as per the book 1.00 usgal 60*S.

Ok sounds good.

Danfoss says you can swap s to es , and h to eh !
Do ye normally do that , or always swap like for like ??


http://heating.danfoss.com/PCMPDF/DKBDPD060J302.pdf

Wearb

TECH85 wrote: »

Cheers boys

The nozzle is as per the book 1.00 usgal 60*S.

Ok sounds good.

Danfoss says you can swap s to es , and h to eh !
Do ye normally do that , or always swap like for like ??


http://heating.danfoss.com/PCMPDF/DKBDPD060J302.pdf

They are talking about spray pattern not output.

TECH85

Yes , thats wat i was referring too ..

jimf

TECH85 wrote: »

Cheers boys

The nozzle is as per the book 1.00 usgal 60*S.

Ok sounds good.

Danfoss says you can swap s to es , and h to eh !
Do ye normally do that , or always swap like for like ??


http://heating.danfoss.com/PCMPDF/DKBDPD060J302.pdf

if you have oil at home yourself play around with different nozzles etc its what I did and you would be amazed what you learn from such a simple exercise

agusta

TECH85 wrote: »

Thanks for the comments lads..
I have since changed the flexi and a few other bits , and done another fga test.

Results below

On the MI booklet it says NFGT ( max output ) •C 220.

This is burning alot hotter obviously, just wondering should i change down to a .85 nozzle maybe ? What do ye think , might help with lower fuel consumption also ?

Ta

It will depend on the output required for the house. The boiler can be set anywhere between 90kbtu and 120kbtu.If only 110kbtu output is required, a 0.85 nozzle would be more efficient and lower on fuel consumption.If only 90kbtu to 95kbtu was required output id be using a 0.75 nozzle with pump pressure 8.2 to 8.5 bar

Dtp1979

How big is the house?

TECH85

Dtp1979 wrote: »

How big is the house?

4 bed dormer , 2 sitting rooms , 16 rads , very good insulation.

Roughly
12 x 1000 doubles
4 x 500 singles

Dtp1979

TECH85 wrote: »

4 bed dormer , 2 sitting rooms , 16 rads , very good insulation.

Roughly
12 x 1000 doubles
4 x 500 singles

Set it to 90 so. Whatever nozzle the book reccomends for that output

TECH85

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Set it to 90 so. Whatever nozzle the book reccomends for that output

Yep sounds good . Im goin to try a few different settings and monitor it until i can get it running at its most efficient !

Tom44

I find a .75 80° S at 9 bar is my preferred setting on those boilers for what you need.

Also, if it's the 3 sets of baffles version, then I try to position bottom baffles gap differently.
ie, center set, start off with baffle fully to the back, slight gap at the front over burner.
The two side baffles, start off with slight gap to the back firstly.

Then alternate gaps on all sets all the way up. This stops central baffles getting most of the hot air and distributes heat more evenly.

Top cleaning door gaskets are crap too. :mad:

TECH85

Tom44 wrote: »

I find a .75 80° S at 9 bar is my preferred setting on those boilers for what you need.

Also, if it's the 3 sets of baffles version, then I try to position bottom baffles gap differently.
ie, center set, start off with baffle fully to the back, slight gap at the front over burner.
The two side baffles, start off with slight gap to the back firstly.

Then alternate gaps on all sets all the way up. This stops central baffles getting most of the hot air and distributes heat more evenly.

Top cleaning door gaskets are crap too. :mad:

Good thinking tom !!

I will give those settings a try ..
Ya the gaskets are pretty crap , 13mm i think ? At least with 20mm there a bit more rigid , and less chance of breakin !

Tom44

TECH85 wrote: »

Good thinking tom !!

I will give those settings a try ..
Ya the gaskets are pretty crap , 13mm i think ? At least with 20mm there a bit more rigid , and less chance of breakin !

Cut to size solid fiber is better, same shop as previously recommended

Or you could ask your new buddies on the Island.
ps. Were called the mainlanders over there.

jimf

you can use the 20 mm on se warmflows as well

TECH85

Yep , waitin on 20mm ceramic fibre board & 25mm blanket to land ..
Defo essentials to have in the van going to every service , never know what condition a boiler is if you haven't been there before.
If the base insulation is in bad condition and needs to be replaced, would ye normally use 25mm blanket or double it and make it 50mm ??
Ta

Heres a dirty popular 90 :-0

braka

TECH85 wrote: »

Yep , waitin on 20mm ceramic fibre board & 25mm blanket to land ..
Defo essentials to have in the van going to every service , never know what condition a boiler is if you haven't been there before.
If the base insulation is in bad condition and needs to be replaced, would ye normally use 25mm blanket or double it and make it 50mm ??
Ta

Heres a dirty popular 90 :-0

Hi Lads, ..a lot of very good points made here re this boiler high temperature issue.
One Question.. what is the relationship between on/off run times of the burner ?

Wearb

braka wrote: »

Hi Lads, ..a lot of very good points made here re this boiler high temperature issue.
One Question.. what is the relationship between on/off run times of the burner ?

On a correctly sized boiler and say a lowest design temperature of 0C, the burner would run most of the time when all zones are calling for heat. This would change to longer burner off times as outside temperatures rise or zones turn off.
I am referring to oil. Gas behaves a little differently due to gas boiler modulation.

DGOBS

TECH85 wrote: »

Yep , waitin on 20mm ceramic fibre board & 25mm blanket to land ..
Defo essentials to have in the van going to every service , never know what condition a boiler is if you haven't been there before.
If the base insulation is in bad condition and needs to be replaced, would ye normally use 25mm blanket or double it and make it 50mm ??
Ta

Heres a dirty popular 90 :-0

Where's the flue?

TECH85

DGOBS wrote: »

Where's the flue?

Boiler has been takin from old small boiler house and being used for heating a garage , so new flue setup for that.
New HE outdoor boiler upgrade for the house with new extension ..

Tom44

DGOBS wrote: »

Where's the flue?

Looks like he totally disconnected boiler and brought it home to give it a good clean.
Now that's servicing 👍


😎

Dtp1979

Tom44 wrote: »

Looks like he totally disconnected boiler and brought it home to give it a good clean.
Now that's servicing ðŸ‘


😎

Talk about taking your work home with ya

Tom44

That's. .....

TECH85

Tom44 wrote: »

That's. .....

That riello burner is stamped 1995 believe it or not !!
Took a fair clean up but shes runnin sweet !!

jimf

we used to have a poster on here called scudo but he fired all of his toys out of the pram a while back

he used to make his own baffles for these boilers and they work a treat


I think he went on the wine big time and starting driving taxis or something some change of career me thinks

he was fine until you mentioned capacitors hmmmm

jimf

TECH85 wrote: »

Yep , waitin on 20mm ceramic fibre board & 25mm blanket to land ..
Defo essentials to have in the van going to every service , never know what condition a boiler is if you haven't been there before.
If the base insulation is in bad condition and needs to be replaced, would ye normally use 25mm blanket or double it and make it 50mm ??
Ta

Heres a dirty popular 90 :-0

id say she was very overaired for a while

JamesM

jimf wrote: »

we used to have a poster on here called scudo but he fired all of his toys out of the pram a while back

he used to make his own baffles for these boilers and they work a treat


I think he went on the wine big time and starting driving taxis or something some change of career me thinks

he was fine until you mentioned capacitors hmmmm

A nice guy when you actually meet him though - Whatever his name is

Tom44

Jim got a set of baffles to try out.
And some anty freeze too.